Ah yes, it's always the fault of the U.S., I forgot.
Clear the the oppression the palestinians took place before any suicide bombings? What? You need to take a look at the history of the region because that is just plain inaccurate--when I hear things like this it really doesn't force me to take the argument very seriously. Arabs have been trying to wipe Israel off the map since its creation. Yes, the suicide bombings are a more recent phenomenom because the technology has become available. Before this tactic, it was basically a guerilla form of fighting. Since it's creation, Israel has has basically fought for survival--keep in mind it is surrounded by countries that would love to wipe it off the map. If the extremists would accept the existance of Israel then there would be no need for this violence-- Israel wouldn't be attacked because it is accepted and Israel wouldn't need to attack because it would no longer be threatened. I don't know why this is so difficult for some to understand. But the fact is that Israel is a nation surrounded by hostile enemies who will not be satisfied until it is wiped off the map so it is entitled to protect itself.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine was the first thing to happen. You can't deny that, or your reading propaganda. Any independant news outlet admits that Israel began occupying land well before they were attacked. Yes, the balfour declaration granted them land in british controlled palestine and the arab world retaliated. Israel then told us that the arabs could not live peacefully and has sought to systematically exterminate them, by occupying more and more of their land and overruling their existing infrastructure. There have been incidents of "relative calm" when Israel was not being attacked, however the genocide of the arab people in palestine continued. Israel is not defending herself, she is the agressor.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
There have been incidents of "relative calm" when Israel was not being attacked, however the genocide of the arab people in palestine continued. Israel is not defending herself, she is the agressor.
That is also true, on many levels and in many instances.
I think the original poster is dead wrong. I doubt there is one person on the board who thinks innocent civilians should be killed during this current conflict. Both sides conservatives and liberals have said that the killing of innocents on both sides is wrong. The differnce is where the emphasis is placed. Liberals on this board have talked about the need to stop killing innocent people on both sides, but their emphasis has come from the Lebanese side. Conservatives, myself included, have condemned both sides for killing innocents, but our emphasis has been from the Israeli side. Why it works out that why I'm not sure. But the OP's statement that the right side doesn't care about innocents in Lebanon dying is wrong, and a weak attempt to make conservatives look bad. Personally, I think that Israel has taken it a little farther then necessary, but I still believe that if Hezbollah gives back the soldiers taken this will stop. The ball is in their court.
there are way more conservatives on this board than that ... and they make their voices heard ... which is great ...
i will admit to being harder on the israeli side of this conflict because if we take away the missle attacks and the suicide bombings ... what are we left with? ... we are left with one segment of the population living with clean water and freedom and another side who have to go thru degrading check points on a daily basis just to get to work living in poverty ... i don't see it being fair at all and therefore my condemnation is not fair ...
i do believe many conservatives here want to believe that those of us on the left want the destruction of israel ... of course - it then allows them to support israel wholeheartedly ... but that is simply not the case - we want the same peace and freedoms for all ... not just one side ...
This conflict began with the Balfour declaration. The entire arab world protested the institution of a state called Israel, where only Jews would be allowed to live, on palestinian land. Israel defeated all it's opposition with the help of US military funding. Israel fought back and in 1967 completely whiped out Palestine. After being forced to draw back, Israel continued to occupy the Gaza strip and the west bank. To this day there are thousands of Jewish/Israeli settlements on palestinian land, all of the roads in palestine rerouted to suit the Israel road map. Israel has occupied palestine for almost 50 years destroying the homes of palestinians claiming "they have no building permit" (but they are on palestinian land) Israel then builds jewish settlements on that land and restricts palestinians from entering.
This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.
The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.
Israel is still occupying Palestine, lots of activity there in the last few days aswell.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.
yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!
the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.
we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side
i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.
i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?
i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.
in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?
but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)
see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.
suicide bombings are wrong
anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.
so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.
so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.
i think most people can see both sides to arguments. that doesn't mean they won't choose a side. Most people will agree that both sides in any issue have their pros and cons... but people ultimately choose sides...sometimes after careful thinking and sometimes not. Take the biggest issues on this board...religion, iraq, abortion. You can understand why some people feel the way they do... that doesn't mean you agree with them. I can understand why someone would want to be a suicide bomber, that doesn't mean i agree with it. I can understand why someone would want to cut and run in iraq; that doesn't mean i agree with it. I assume you can understand how people can be against abortion, that doesn't mean you have to change your view.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
07/18/06 "WND" -- -- When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.
First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.
Now, Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.
The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its airstrikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.
What Israel is up to was described by its army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."
Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.
Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.
Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.
The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza and demanded a prisoner exchange.
Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.
Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.
But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
When al-Qaida captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?
Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?
Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.
That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.
Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?
Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?
How much must America pay for the education of this man?
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I was one of those conservatives who supported Israeli actions. However, after absorbing the situation, I have to agree now that Israel has gone way too far.
Regardless if I think it is justified or not, their actions are not promoting a solution - only breeding more hatred and violence that will ultimately come back to them and the rest of the Western world.
Do I think the Israeli's have a right to do what they are doing? I sure do. But I think taking a different approach is the best way to solve this conflict.
The people I'm pointing the finger at now are the rest of the Western, modernized world and China (and yes the US too). If they could join together and throw all their weight into a unified solution - when would be on the road to peace.
The US gives 2.5 billion a year to Israel and 400 million to Lebanon. Now you tell me who the priority should be? A fledgling democracy or one of the most prosperous countries in the world. If Bush was true to his word about spreading democracy, it seems he would try a little harder to support Lebanon.
But that doesn't seem likely anytime soon. It completely baffles me why Israel and the US would want to destroy the infastructure and undermine one of the few democratic regimes in the entire Middle East (Lebanon).
I preach on here about how many of you liberals go too far in condeming the US, so much so that it seems as if you want to destroy our democratic society rather than fix it.
Much the same way, it doesn't seem like Israel wants to fix the Lebonese political structure - just destroy it. Who do they think is going to fill that Vacuum?
I have always stated that you post some of the most well thought out intersting and informative posts on this messageboard, wether I agree with them or not. Many time you and I don't see completely eye to eye, but I have to say I completely agree with you this time. Great post.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Israel is still occupying Palestine, lots of activity there in the last few days aswell.
Interesting poll results ... Israel is the single leader at 32%, but when you tally up Hezbollah and its 2 allies, you get 43%. Surprising, considering the website.
it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.
yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!
the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.
we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side
i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.
i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?
i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.
in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?
but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)
see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.
suicide bombings are wrong
anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.
so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.
so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.
Seriously, why are you spreading bullshit?
Did you ever watch 'Death IN Gaza'? Did you see the palestinian kids making homemade bombs? Did you see the part where the kids talked about being actively recruited to do the work of terrorists? DId you hear the kids rhetoric about the 'pigs' etc that the Israeli's are? Or did you just see the part about the Israeli army?
Sure, in these conflicts both sides are doing wrong. I think most people would say that. Of course it's all too common for someone on 'your side' to say...'suicide bombing is bad BUT...now, do you really believe that? Doesn't seem so from most of the talk I see. The suicide bombers are forced into killing Israeli kids at the movie theater, huh?
Sure, some here (and everywhere) support Israel full tilt, but I think your numbers are way fucked up.
we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.
With all due respect, how does that deserve any type of praise? I'm glad you feel that way, but it would be much more constructive to figure out ways to thwart their activities instead of attacking every initiative that the government has ever put forth to combat radical islamic terrorists. It might even be more constructive to recognize that terrorist attacks are just that, and not a ploy by George W. Bush to take over the world.
As far as criticizing Israel, I don't care to engage in circular philosophical arguments. I do find it interesting that many on the left (not necessarily you) blame the US for 911 b/c of their foreign policy. Yet, when terrorist organizations use civilians as human shields, they fail to blame the terrorist group with the deaths of the civilians. Instead, they blame the nation state taking the necessary actions.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
With all due respect, how does that deserve any type of praise? I'm glad you feel that way, but it would be much more constructive to figure out ways to thwart their activities instead of attacking every initiative that the government has ever put forth to combat radical islamic terrorists. It might even be more constructive to recognize that terrorist attacks are just that, and not a ploy by George W. Bush to take over the world.
As far as criticizing Israel, I don't care to engage in circular philosophical arguments. I do find it interesting that many on the left (not necessarily you) blame the US for 911 b/c of their foreign policy. Yet, when terrorist organizations use civilians as human shields, they fail to blame the terrorist group with the deaths of the civilians. Instead, they blame the nation state taking the necessary actions.
You would be a great hostage negotiator, "Shoot the hostage!".
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
And the conservatives are the only ones who understand you have to pick a side.
Right vs. Wrong.
Good vs. Evil.
Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos and they still try to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Hezbollah started this, Israel has a right to put an end to it.
How do you think the American people would react if missiles were raining down on Buffalo from Toronto?
I come back to the MT after 6 months away and this is what I get !! Well, fuck me. This post is so laden with Freudian slips and other revealing rhetoric that its sickening. First of all, one doesn't pick a side for the sake of picking a side, or as foreplay for armageddon, you tool - rather, it looks to nuances and seeks, to the best of one's abilility, the truth. Remember the truth ? Remember nuances ? Objectivity ? I know these are foreign concepts to many conservatives, especially on this website, but they should be sought out at all costs.
This statement killed me: "Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos...". See, what this statement really signifies is a totally mistaken belief that Israel has played fair when it comes to "negotiations", OR, more likely, that negotiation on the part of Israel is tantamount to capitulation. Don't be too ashamed to admit it 69er, in fact its one of the most common complaints about the Israeli gov't over the years, even among Israeli's themselves.
And what about this statement: "Hezbollah started this, israel has a right to put an end to it". But is that what israel is really doing now ? i doubt it. What they're really doing is killing civilians by the boatload, and only marginally eliminating the people who started this recent bullshit. Oh sorry, maybe that's a little too nuanced for you. Oh well, close enough right ? After all, you've chosen sides already, and well, you can't start splitting hairs now, right ? What's a few hundred dead civilians, and 500,000 misplaced ? (By the way, I'd personally like to take this opportunity to thank Israel for killing 8 of my fellow Canadians who happened to be visiting Lebanon at the time). You seem to be of the same mind as this person who wrote an editorial in Haaretz today : notice his similar omission of the dead civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with bombing Israel, but whose lives are being torn apart.
And i already know how the U.S. would react about an invasion - it too would attack whoever it sees fit, even if it had nothing to do with the initial event or stimulus. Iraq ring a bell ? Vietnam ? Cuba ?........
You would be a great hostage negotiator, "Shoot the hostage!".
That's clever.
What is your opinion? If a group of "militants" hide behind human shields, who bears the responsibilty for their blood? If you don't believe that it's the militants' responsibility, is this consistent with the idea that we bear responsibility for our "fascist" foreign policy decisions? Seems to me that the blame over civilian deaths (be it our own or that of other nations) is always directed towards us.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
What is your opinion? If a group of "militants" hide behind human shields, who bears the responsibilty for their blood? If you don't believe that it's the militants' responsibility, is this consistent with the idea that we bear responsibility for our "fascist" foreign policy decisions? Seems to me that the blame over civilian deaths (be it our own or that of other nations) is always directed towards us.
We need to identify why these groups are doing it. Then we can resolve the underlying humanitarian problems to prevent future occurances. People don't do these things for fun, it's motivated by crisis.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
We need to identify why these groups are doing it.
I take them at their word. Why do you think they are doing it? Even better, why do you think Israel is doing what it's doing?
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I take them at their word. Why do you think they are doing it? Even better, why do you think Israel is doing what it's doing?
I think I've gone over this 100 times. Zionism is the religious belief that Jews should have a state in the homeland of Israel around Jerusalem. That's the main reason Israel was reestablished. The Balfour declaration by the British empire gave portions of palestine to the jewish people. Things we seemingly ok with the arabs with jews settling back in palestine. In 1948 Israel declared it's independance from palestine which upset the arab world. Fighting raged for a long time, the Israeli military received billions worth of aid from the US government. Israel successfully destroyed her opposition. Israel launched a counter-offensive and by 1967 controlled all of palestine. A UN resolution had Israel give back parts of palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank), however Israel still occupies those regions and has more than 1000 colonies in them. By international law, an occupying force cannot destroy homes for the purposes of colonization, they can't colonize on occupied territory either. However Israel continues to do this. There have been literally dozens of UN resolutions which I provided links to a few months ago, asking Israel to leave palestine alone, establishing palestine as a sovereign entity and to provide aid to palestine, the United States has vetoed every one of those resolutions.
So, to answer your question. The arabs do what they do to protect their land and regain their sovereignty. The jews do what they do because arabs are their mortal enemy and they want ultimate control over the promised land, as was laid out for them by Moses on Mt. Sinai.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i could be wrong, but i doubt they'd act like Israel are right now... wow...
you say that as if America isn't behind this shit....hasn't anyone noticed that those are our bombs and warships hitting Lebanon? Israel is just another one of America's bitches and dubya is now drinking the blood of Lebanese women and children.
yeah ... but what came first?? ... its clear the oppression of the palestinians well before any suicide bombing took place ... any efforts by the int'l community to address these actions have constantly been thwarted by the americans ...
much of the middle east would just like to live on its own term but if you look at who has done the most meddling in the region you will see a familiar face ...
Fantastic post. I'm amazed that some people can't see this. It's about finding a solution rather than trying to cover up a problem or use some sort of quick fix on it.
Your ratio of "hezbollah condemnation" threads to "Israel condemnation" threads is WELL above 9:1.
Well, it's clear that Israel are terrorists just like the U.S. It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber. Many of us would do the same goddamn thing if we were in their shoes. IMO the west needs to just stay the fuck out of the east and try to live in peace with itself.
This conflict began with the Balfour declaration. The entire arab world protested the institution of a state called Israel, where only Jews would be allowed to live, on palestinian land. Israel defeated all it's opposition with the help of US military funding. Israel fought back and in 1967 completely whiped out Palestine. After being forced to draw back, Israel continued to occupy the Gaza strip and the west bank. To this day there are thousands of Jewish/Israeli settlements on palestinian land, all of the roads in palestine rerouted to suit the Israel road map. Israel has occupied palestine for almost 50 years destroying the homes of palestinians claiming "they have no building permit" (but they are on palestinian land) Israel then builds jewish settlements on that land and restricts palestinians from entering.
This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.
The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.
I condemn violence of all kinds, however, if faced with these circumstances I can't say I would react any differently.
Easily the best post I've read in weeks. In fact, I'm done with this thread because you've said exactly what needed to be said and I hope those who are clueless can try to read and understand what you posted. Good job.
i haven't had time to read all the replies but i will address some of the replies i've seen, but first:
i worded the original post poorly...i wrote it in a fit of frustration and hyper-sensitivity. i've always been very empathetic...i've been donating christmas and birthday money to wildlife and environmental groups since i was in middle school.
anyway, i understand it seems childish and putting ppl in a 'my side vs your side' kinda thing.
cincy-no, i havent' seen death in gaza yet...no video store around here has it but i have been looking for it. why else would i have pm'd you asking you the name of it again?
reborn- yes, you were one of the 2 i named
nmytree- i did not see your thread you had mentioned so my apologies. and you're right, i don't start threads myself about suicide bombings or other terroristic acts.
i guess i'm hypersensitive...when i saw the attack start last week i just got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach thinking of all the death of innocent ppl, and yes, that happens every day, but not on this scale. i also see this as a beginning of something veeeeeery bad. you see israel and bush are already lumping iran into this and i think this is a pretext for more war and death.
the reason i don't give as much light to suicide bombing and such is b/c i dont' see the scale as being the same. i also see those actions as reactionary. i know others see israel's actions as the same but i don't see it that way. i think if things like the videos and articles i have been posting this last week (the idf shooting tear gas into an ambulance that came to take away the ppl the idf beat during a non violent protest, shooting tear gas at ppl holding a memorial for rachel corrie and shooting at them, the article about israeli kids writing to idf very horrid things, the video of israeli kids throwing rocks at arabs, the pics of israeli girls gleefully signing bombs that will kill a lot of innocent ppl not involved in hezbollah, the video of the idf throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and kids...)
the israelis are a nuclear power...they receive billions in weaponry from the US...the other side gets weapons but not nearly the amount or scale israel does.
i jsut see israel as the aggressors. and yes, i do say 'it's wrong, but...' and that's b/c i think the palestinians are caught in a very bad situation. the majority of their children live w/ malnutrtion b/c of the checkpoints.
and yes, cincy, i know arab kids are brainwashed to hate israelis and that is horrid. but what doesn't get tossed around here is the israeli children are pretty much in the same boat...being brainwashed to hate. why else would school kids write to idf to kill as many arabs as they could and all the other things? why else would they throw rocks and hit arabs just for being there?
also, the media shows the suicide bombings and it's effects...you never see the stuff i've posted. i understand i went about it wrong w/ this thread, but fuck...look at how many ppl are dying!!! and for what? for bullshit!
the point was you don't see as many ppl condemn the actions of the israelis on the scale you see ppl condemn the actions of groups like hezbollah and hamas. instead you see constant justifications, you see the 'yeah, but...'s on that side, too. look at 69charger's post...if the arabs didn't do this then israel wouldn't do that...i think that's bs, especially if you watch the videos i've posted....i think things like that are what drive palesitinians to groups like that. they see no matter what, even if they act nice and don't do anything bad they are still shit upon, beaten, shot at, tear gassed....they try to take their kids to the doctors in another town and it's up in the air if they will even be let past the checkpoint to get there. i think if they weren't put in such a shitty situation they wouldn't feel all is lost so act out while you can and make them pay.
the actions are not the same. suicide bombings don't happen as often as the abuses from israel.
it jsut seems like israel gets a pass and their actions rationalized on a far greater scale. i think the palestinians feel so down and like there's no hope so they lash out like this. they don't ahve apache's, they have rocks and some weapons from syria and iran...not nearly the same as what israel gets.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Well, it's clear that Israel are terrorists just like the U.S. It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber. Many of us would do the same goddamn thing if we were in their shoes. IMO the west needs to just stay the fuck out of the east and try to live in peace with itself.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
Get help.
well it's true...it's far easier to sympathize w/ women and children having stu grenades thrown at them, then tear gassed then have the idf shoot at them than it is to sympathize w/ the idf doing it.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
well it's true...it's far easier to sympathize w/ women and children having stu grenades thrown at them, then tear gassed then have the idf shoot at them than it is to sympathize w/ the idf doing it.
only for bleeding hearts. Do you feel bad when you see a bully who has picked on a small kid for weeks, when the little kid gets some better help and kicks the snot out of the bully? Do you feel bad for that bully? Just because Israel (the kid) has better weapons now, suddenly its wrong for them to fight back against the bully? You seem to ONLY look at deathcounts as your "thing" to use to pass judgement. Wars that are evenly matched balistics-wise usually end up in HUGE casualty counts. You can't just look at deathcounts to critisize with. Reason's for them count. For whatever reason, people's idealogies vary so greatly, that agreement upon the reason's behind the anger and hatred there will never be evenly viewed. All I know is, the problems "over there" go MUCH deeper than the US of A.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
Get help.
Liberal's ALWAYS want the easy way out. Its ingrained in their mindset. Sadly.
Comments
And where would Israels borders be situated? As they are now? Pre 1967? 1948?
Please elaborate...
The Israeli occupation of Palestine was the first thing to happen. You can't deny that, or your reading propaganda. Any independant news outlet admits that Israel began occupying land well before they were attacked. Yes, the balfour declaration granted them land in british controlled palestine and the arab world retaliated. Israel then told us that the arabs could not live peacefully and has sought to systematically exterminate them, by occupying more and more of their land and overruling their existing infrastructure. There have been incidents of "relative calm" when Israel was not being attacked, however the genocide of the arab people in palestine continued. Israel is not defending herself, she is the agressor.
That is also true, on many levels and in many instances.
These two posts I completely agree with.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Israel is still occupying Palestine, lots of activity there in the last few days aswell.
thank you
Now that is good irony.
By Patrick J. Buchanan
07/18/06 "WND" -- -- When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.
First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.
Now, Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.
The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its airstrikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.
What Israel is up to was described by its army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."
Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.
Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.
Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.
The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza and demanded a prisoner exchange.
Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.
Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.
But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
When al-Qaida captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?
Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?
Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.
That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.
Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?
Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?
How much must America pay for the education of this man?
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I have always stated that you post some of the most well thought out intersting and informative posts on this messageboard, wether I agree with them or not. Many time you and I don't see completely eye to eye, but I have to say I completely agree with you this time. Great post.
Interesting poll results ... Israel is the single leader at 32%, but when you tally up Hezbollah and its 2 allies, you get 43%. Surprising, considering the website.
Seriously, why are you spreading bullshit?
Did you ever watch 'Death IN Gaza'? Did you see the palestinian kids making homemade bombs? Did you see the part where the kids talked about being actively recruited to do the work of terrorists? DId you hear the kids rhetoric about the 'pigs' etc that the Israeli's are? Or did you just see the part about the Israeli army?
Sure, in these conflicts both sides are doing wrong. I think most people would say that. Of course it's all too common for someone on 'your side' to say...'suicide bombing is bad BUT...now, do you really believe that? Doesn't seem so from most of the talk I see. The suicide bombers are forced into killing Israeli kids at the movie theater, huh?
Sure, some here (and everywhere) support Israel full tilt, but I think your numbers are way fucked up.
With all due respect, how does that deserve any type of praise? I'm glad you feel that way, but it would be much more constructive to figure out ways to thwart their activities instead of attacking every initiative that the government has ever put forth to combat radical islamic terrorists. It might even be more constructive to recognize that terrorist attacks are just that, and not a ploy by George W. Bush to take over the world.
As far as criticizing Israel, I don't care to engage in circular philosophical arguments. I do find it interesting that many on the left (not necessarily you) blame the US for 911 b/c of their foreign policy. Yet, when terrorist organizations use civilians as human shields, they fail to blame the terrorist group with the deaths of the civilians. Instead, they blame the nation state taking the necessary actions.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You would be a great hostage negotiator, "Shoot the hostage!".
I come back to the MT after 6 months away and this is what I get !! Well, fuck me. This post is so laden with Freudian slips and other revealing rhetoric that its sickening. First of all, one doesn't pick a side for the sake of picking a side, or as foreplay for armageddon, you tool - rather, it looks to nuances and seeks, to the best of one's abilility, the truth. Remember the truth ? Remember nuances ? Objectivity ? I know these are foreign concepts to many conservatives, especially on this website, but they should be sought out at all costs.
This statement killed me: "Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos...". See, what this statement really signifies is a totally mistaken belief that Israel has played fair when it comes to "negotiations", OR, more likely, that negotiation on the part of Israel is tantamount to capitulation. Don't be too ashamed to admit it 69er, in fact its one of the most common complaints about the Israeli gov't over the years, even among Israeli's themselves.
And what about this statement: "Hezbollah started this, israel has a right to put an end to it". But is that what israel is really doing now ? i doubt it. What they're really doing is killing civilians by the boatload, and only marginally eliminating the people who started this recent bullshit. Oh sorry, maybe that's a little too nuanced for you. Oh well, close enough right ? After all, you've chosen sides already, and well, you can't start splitting hairs now, right ? What's a few hundred dead civilians, and 500,000 misplaced ? (By the way, I'd personally like to take this opportunity to thank Israel for killing 8 of my fellow Canadians who happened to be visiting Lebanon at the time). You seem to be of the same mind as this person who wrote an editorial in Haaretz today : notice his similar omission of the dead civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with bombing Israel, but whose lives are being torn apart.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/739978.html
And i already know how the U.S. would react about an invasion - it too would attack whoever it sees fit, even if it had nothing to do with the initial event or stimulus. Iraq ring a bell ? Vietnam ? Cuba ?........
That's clever.
What is your opinion? If a group of "militants" hide behind human shields, who bears the responsibilty for their blood? If you don't believe that it's the militants' responsibility, is this consistent with the idea that we bear responsibility for our "fascist" foreign policy decisions? Seems to me that the blame over civilian deaths (be it our own or that of other nations) is always directed towards us.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
We need to identify why these groups are doing it. Then we can resolve the underlying humanitarian problems to prevent future occurances. People don't do these things for fun, it's motivated by crisis.
I take them at their word. Why do you think they are doing it? Even better, why do you think Israel is doing what it's doing?
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I think I've gone over this 100 times. Zionism is the religious belief that Jews should have a state in the homeland of Israel around Jerusalem. That's the main reason Israel was reestablished. The Balfour declaration by the British empire gave portions of palestine to the jewish people. Things we seemingly ok with the arabs with jews settling back in palestine. In 1948 Israel declared it's independance from palestine which upset the arab world. Fighting raged for a long time, the Israeli military received billions worth of aid from the US government. Israel successfully destroyed her opposition. Israel launched a counter-offensive and by 1967 controlled all of palestine. A UN resolution had Israel give back parts of palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank), however Israel still occupies those regions and has more than 1000 colonies in them. By international law, an occupying force cannot destroy homes for the purposes of colonization, they can't colonize on occupied territory either. However Israel continues to do this. There have been literally dozens of UN resolutions which I provided links to a few months ago, asking Israel to leave palestine alone, establishing palestine as a sovereign entity and to provide aid to palestine, the United States has vetoed every one of those resolutions.
So, to answer your question. The arabs do what they do to protect their land and regain their sovereignty. The jews do what they do because arabs are their mortal enemy and they want ultimate control over the promised land, as was laid out for them by Moses on Mt. Sinai.
Easily the best post I've read in weeks. In fact, I'm done with this thread because you've said exactly what needed to be said and I hope those who are clueless can try to read and understand what you posted. Good job.
i worded the original post poorly...i wrote it in a fit of frustration and hyper-sensitivity. i've always been very empathetic...i've been donating christmas and birthday money to wildlife and environmental groups since i was in middle school.
anyway, i understand it seems childish and putting ppl in a 'my side vs your side' kinda thing.
cincy-no, i havent' seen death in gaza yet...no video store around here has it but i have been looking for it. why else would i have pm'd you asking you the name of it again?
reborn- yes, you were one of the 2 i named
nmytree- i did not see your thread you had mentioned so my apologies. and you're right, i don't start threads myself about suicide bombings or other terroristic acts.
i guess i'm hypersensitive...when i saw the attack start last week i just got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach thinking of all the death of innocent ppl, and yes, that happens every day, but not on this scale. i also see this as a beginning of something veeeeeery bad. you see israel and bush are already lumping iran into this and i think this is a pretext for more war and death.
the reason i don't give as much light to suicide bombing and such is b/c i dont' see the scale as being the same. i also see those actions as reactionary. i know others see israel's actions as the same but i don't see it that way. i think if things like the videos and articles i have been posting this last week (the idf shooting tear gas into an ambulance that came to take away the ppl the idf beat during a non violent protest, shooting tear gas at ppl holding a memorial for rachel corrie and shooting at them, the article about israeli kids writing to idf very horrid things, the video of israeli kids throwing rocks at arabs, the pics of israeli girls gleefully signing bombs that will kill a lot of innocent ppl not involved in hezbollah, the video of the idf throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and kids...)
the israelis are a nuclear power...they receive billions in weaponry from the US...the other side gets weapons but not nearly the amount or scale israel does.
i jsut see israel as the aggressors. and yes, i do say 'it's wrong, but...' and that's b/c i think the palestinians are caught in a very bad situation. the majority of their children live w/ malnutrtion b/c of the checkpoints.
and yes, cincy, i know arab kids are brainwashed to hate israelis and that is horrid. but what doesn't get tossed around here is the israeli children are pretty much in the same boat...being brainwashed to hate. why else would school kids write to idf to kill as many arabs as they could and all the other things? why else would they throw rocks and hit arabs just for being there?
also, the media shows the suicide bombings and it's effects...you never see the stuff i've posted. i understand i went about it wrong w/ this thread, but fuck...look at how many ppl are dying!!! and for what? for bullshit!
the point was you don't see as many ppl condemn the actions of the israelis on the scale you see ppl condemn the actions of groups like hezbollah and hamas. instead you see constant justifications, you see the 'yeah, but...'s on that side, too. look at 69charger's post...if the arabs didn't do this then israel wouldn't do that...i think that's bs, especially if you watch the videos i've posted....i think things like that are what drive palesitinians to groups like that. they see no matter what, even if they act nice and don't do anything bad they are still shit upon, beaten, shot at, tear gassed....they try to take their kids to the doctors in another town and it's up in the air if they will even be let past the checkpoint to get there. i think if they weren't put in such a shitty situation they wouldn't feel all is lost so act out while you can and make them pay.
the actions are not the same. suicide bombings don't happen as often as the abuses from israel.
it jsut seems like israel gets a pass and their actions rationalized on a far greater scale. i think the palestinians feel so down and like there's no hope so they lash out like this. they don't ahve apache's, they have rocks and some weapons from syria and iran...not nearly the same as what israel gets.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
Get help.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
well it's true...it's far easier to sympathize w/ women and children having stu grenades thrown at them, then tear gassed then have the idf shoot at them than it is to sympathize w/ the idf doing it.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
only for bleeding hearts. Do you feel bad when you see a bully who has picked on a small kid for weeks, when the little kid gets some better help and kicks the snot out of the bully? Do you feel bad for that bully? Just because Israel (the kid) has better weapons now, suddenly its wrong for them to fight back against the bully? You seem to ONLY look at deathcounts as your "thing" to use to pass judgement. Wars that are evenly matched balistics-wise usually end up in HUGE casualty counts. You can't just look at deathcounts to critisize with. Reason's for them count. For whatever reason, people's idealogies vary so greatly, that agreement upon the reason's behind the anger and hatred there will never be evenly viewed. All I know is, the problems "over there" go MUCH deeper than the US of A.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Liberal's ALWAYS want the easy way out. Its ingrained in their mindset. Sadly.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Don't you think you are painting wide stroke with a mighty big brush there.