can you see both sides?

baraka

Kabong, as someone that pretty much feels the way you do about many things, I think your approach with your posts, esp when you you post a clip with just a short ambiguous remark, alienates people from your point of view. I know that your heart is in the right place, but you have to always remember what your goal is: to open people up to your ideas and perspectives, not become the very thing that you are fighting against. As concerned as I am with the Israeli government's actions as of late, the last thing I'd want to do is further anymore hate.

OuttaControl

polaris wrote:

we are left with one segment of the population living with clean water and freedom and another side who have to go thru degrading check points on a daily basis just to get to work living in poverty ...

Could the reason for the "degrading checkpoints" be that Israel got tired of suicide bombers vaporizing random people?

I would guess that if the rest of the Middle East could actually wrap their mind around the thought of a peaceful coexistance with Israel and not want to wipe it off the map and stop the suicide bombings..ect...I would bet that Israel wouldn't need to put people through "degrading checkpoints."

thankyougrandma

OuttaControl wrote:

Could the reason for the "degrading checkpoints" be that Israel got tired of suicide bombers vaporizing random people?

I would guess that if the rest of the Middle East could actually wrap their mind around the thought of a peaceful coexistance with Israel and not want to wipe it off the map and stop the suicide bombings..ect...I would bet that Israel wouldn't need to put people through "degrading checkpoints."

So you think they're currently on their way to end that with the current actions? seriously?

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

Who, me??

Seriously though, and not wanting to go off on a tangent, but how democratic is your so-called democracy in the U.S? You have a choice of voting for two different shades of shit as far as I can make out. Maybe one turd is less harsh on the pallete than the other?

Well I wasn't calling you out specifically, but now I am.

Your comment about the dysfunction of our democracy is a thread unto itself and has nothing to do with our discussion here. What were you trying to accomplish with that?

It just makes me less receptive to your comments in the future... less likely to give you credibility.

RockinInCanada

69charger wrote:

It's up to the Palestinians and the other Muslim countries in the region. They could rid themselves of the extremist population if they really wanted to. If they don't someone else will have to.

If you don't think these people have tried..go invest in a history lesson...learn from the hundreds of Muslim deaths at the hands of radical Islam....like have I said research Algeria/Egypt....look at the American military in Iraq, the most powerful militray on the face of the planet cannot even suppress these groups...do you the majorty of Muslims over there support terrorist action....like really give me a break...

polaris

OuttaControl wrote:

Could the reason for the "degrading checkpoints" be that Israel got tired of suicide bombers vaporizing random people?

I would guess that if the rest of the Middle East could actually wrap their mind around the thought of a peaceful coexistance with Israel and not want to wipe it off the map and stop the suicide bombings..ect...I would bet that Israel wouldn't need to put people through "degrading checkpoints."

yeah ... but what came first?? ... its clear the oppression of the palestinians well before any suicide bombing took place ... any efforts by the int'l community to address these actions have constantly been thwarted by the americans ...

much of the middle east would just like to live on its own term but if you look at who has done the most meddling in the region you will see a familiar face ...

PaperPlates

it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.

yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!

Your ratio of "hezbollah condemnation" threads to "Israel condemnation" threads is WELL above 9:1. Maybe if you pretended to be a little more balanced both in your views and what YOU present to us, you wouldnt come off as redundant as you do. 15 paragraphs on what Israel does, and just saying "oh, and hezbollah's suicide bombings are wrong too" just doesnt come across as all that balanced or as viewing both sides. Rather, just show's you're aware there are 2 sides. Just my 2 cents.

And what do you say to the idiot who posted "allah bless hezbollah"?? Why was that post allowed to go unedited, but a thread toasting Israel for standing up for themselves was deleted by mods? Where's the fairness in that?

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

Your comment about the dysfunction of our democracy is a thread unto itself and has nothing to do with our discussion here.

Hence my words "..not wanting to go off on a tangent.."
As far as the second part of your sentence goes, it was relevant with regards to the post to which I responded.

Ahnimus

This conflict began with the Balfour declaration. The entire arab world protested the institution of a state called Israel, where only Jews would be allowed to live, on palestinian land. Israel defeated all it's opposition with the help of US military funding. Israel fought back and in 1967 completely whiped out Palestine. After being forced to draw back, Israel continued to occupy the Gaza strip and the west bank. To this day there are thousands of Jewish/Israeli settlements on palestinian land, all of the roads in palestine rerouted to suit the Israel road map. Israel has occupied palestine for almost 50 years destroying the homes of palestinians claiming "they have no building permit" (but they are on palestinian land) Israel then builds jewish settlements on that land and restricts palestinians from entering.

This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.

The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.

Google Video: Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land
This video explains my points exactly.

I condemn violence of all kinds, however, if faced with these circumstances I can't say I would react any differently.

OuttaControl

polaris wrote:

yeah ... but what came first?? ... its clear the oppression of the palestinians well before any suicide bombing took place ... any efforts by the int'l community to address these actions have constantly been thwarted by the americans ...

much of the middle east would just like to live on its own term but if you look at who has done the most meddling in the region you will see a familiar face ...

Ah yes, it's always the fault of the U.S., I forgot.

Clear the the oppression the palestinians took place before any suicide bombings? What? You need to take a look at the history of the region because that is just plain inaccurate--when I hear things like this it really doesn't force me to take the argument very seriously. Arabs have been trying to wipe Israel off the map since its creation. Yes, the suicide bombings are a more recent phenomenom because the technology has become available. Before this tactic, it was basically a guerilla form of fighting. Since it's creation, Israel has has basically fought for survival--keep in mind it is surrounded by countries that would love to wipe it off the map. If the extremists would accept the existance of Israel then there would be no need for this violence-- Israel wouldn't be attacked because it is accepted and Israel wouldn't need to attack because it would no longer be threatened. I don't know why this is so difficult for some to understand. But the fact is that Israel is a nation surrounded by hostile enemies who will not be satisfied until it is wiped off the map so it is entitled to protect itself.

Byrnzie

OuttaControl wrote:

If the extremists would accept the existance of Israel then there would be no need for this violence

And where would Israels borders be situated? As they are now? Pre 1967? 1948?
Please elaborate...

Ahnimus

OuttaControl wrote:

Ah yes, it's always the fault of the U.S., I forgot.

Clear the the oppression the palestinians took place before any suicide bombings? What? You need to take a look at the history of the region because that is just plain inaccurate--when I hear things like this it really doesn't force me to take the argument very seriously. Arabs have been trying to wipe Israel off the map since its creation. Yes, the suicide bombings are a more recent phenomenom because the technology has become available. Before this tactic, it was basically a guerilla form of fighting. Since it's creation, Israel has has basically fought for survival--keep in mind it is surrounded by countries that would love to wipe it off the map. If the extremists would accept the existance of Israel then there would be no need for this violence-- Israel wouldn't be attacked because it is accepted and Israel wouldn't need to attack because it would no longer be threatened. I don't know why this is so difficult for some to understand. But the fact is that Israel is a nation surrounded by hostile enemies who will not be satisfied until it is wiped off the map so it is entitled to protect itself.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine was the first thing to happen. You can't deny that, or your reading propaganda. Any independant news outlet admits that Israel began occupying land well before they were attacked. Yes, the balfour declaration granted them land in british controlled palestine and the arab world retaliated. Israel then told us that the arabs could not live peacefully and has sought to systematically exterminate them, by occupying more and more of their land and overruling their existing infrastructure. There have been incidents of "relative calm" when Israel was not being attacked, however the genocide of the arab people in palestine continued. Israel is not defending herself, she is the agressor.

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

There have been incidents of "relative calm" when Israel was not being attacked, however the genocide of the arab people in palestine continued. Israel is not defending herself, she is the agressor.

That is also true, on many levels and in many instances.

The Illinoisemakers

I think the original poster is dead wrong. I doubt there is one person on the board who thinks innocent civilians should be killed during this current conflict. Both sides conservatives and liberals have said that the killing of innocents on both sides is wrong. The differnce is where the emphasis is placed. Liberals on this board have talked about the need to stop killing innocent people on both sides, but their emphasis has come from the Lebanese side. Conservatives, myself included, have condemned both sides for killing innocents, but our emphasis has been from the Israeli side. Why it works out that why I'm not sure. But the OP's statement that the right side doesn't care about innocents in Lebanon dying is wrong, and a weak attempt to make conservatives look bad. Personally, I think that Israel has taken it a little farther then necessary, but I still believe that if Hezbollah gives back the soldiers taken this will stop. The ball is in their court.

Abookamongstthemany

polaris wrote:

there are way more conservatives on this board than that ... and they make their voices heard ... which is great ...

i will admit to being harder on the israeli side of this conflict because if we take away the missle attacks and the suicide bombings ... what are we left with? ... we are left with one segment of the population living with clean water and freedom and another side who have to go thru degrading check points on a daily basis just to get to work living in poverty ... i don't see it being fair at all and therefore my condemnation is not fair ...

i do believe many conservatives here want to believe that those of us on the left want the destruction of israel ... of course - it then allows them to support israel wholeheartedly ... but that is simply not the case - we want the same peace and freedoms for all ... not just one side ...

Ahnimus wrote:

This conflict began with the Balfour declaration. The entire arab world protested the institution of a state called Israel, where only Jews would be allowed to live, on palestinian land. Israel defeated all it's opposition with the help of US military funding. Israel fought back and in 1967 completely whiped out Palestine. After being forced to draw back, Israel continued to occupy the Gaza strip and the west bank. To this day there are thousands of Jewish/Israeli settlements on palestinian land, all of the roads in palestine rerouted to suit the Israel road map. Israel has occupied palestine for almost 50 years destroying the homes of palestinians claiming "they have no building permit" (but they are on palestinian land) Israel then builds jewish settlements on that land and restricts palestinians from entering.

This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.

The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.

Google Video: Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land
This video explains my points exactly.

I condemn violence of all kinds, however, if faced with these circumstances I can't say I would react any differently.

These two posts I completely agree with.

Ahnimus

Who do you think is mainly to blame for the current Middle East crisis?

Hezbollah :
22%
Iran and Syria :
21%
Israel :
32%
Lebanon :
1%
United States :
12%
All of the above :
12%
None of the above :
0%

Number of pollers : 76851
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F2A08EBF-D5DD-47B3-80D3-0D10CAF09B0A.htm

Israel is still occupying Palestine, lots of activity there in the last few days aswell.

my2hands

El_Kabong wrote:

it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.

yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!

the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.

we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side

i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.

i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?

i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.

in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?

but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)

see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.

suicide bombings are wrong

anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.

so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.

so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.

thank you

chopitdown

i think most people can see both sides to arguments. that doesn't mean they won't choose a side. Most people will agree that both sides in any issue have their pros and cons... but people ultimately choose sides...sometimes after careful thinking and sometimes not. Take the biggest issues on this board...religion, iraq, abortion. You can understand why some people feel the way they do... that doesn't mean you agree with them. I can understand why someone would want to be a suicide bomber, that doesn't mean i agree with it. I can understand why someone would want to cut and run in iraq; that doesn't mean i agree with it. I assume you can understand how people can be against abortion, that doesn't mean you have to change your view.

farfromglorified

El_Kabong wrote:

Can you see both sides?

it seems the liberal side... is the only one that can say both sides do bad things.....

Now that is good irony.

melodious

Where are the Christians?
By Patrick J. Buchanan

07/18/06 "WND" -- -- When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.

First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.

Now, Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.

The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its airstrikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.

What Israel is up to was described by its army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."

Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.

Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.

Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.

The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza and demanded a prisoner exchange.

Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.

Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.

But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?

When al-Qaida captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?

Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?

Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.

That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.

Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?

Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?

How much must America pay for the education of this man?