Question to Christians about Jesus's family

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  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    soulsinging wrote:
    you mean evidence like the evidence that scientifically virgins don't have babies... that you've got to get laid to have kids? i suppose what you mean is you're not aware of any bible stories contradicting that. as far as revisionist history, the new testament is the greatest example of revisionist history ever written. and the great part is its devotees are willfully ignorant about it.

    Thanks for the "birds and bees" talk, Souls. You mean the Stork didn't drop me off? ;)
    As a Christian who has no problem with te idea of the virgin birth, and a father with three children, none of which were immaculately concieved, i know how babies are concieved. What you are doing though, is completely ruling out the possibility of the supernatural. Were talking about God, here. i know many here have no faith in God whatsoever, but that isn't the point. If in fact God designed and created the Universe and the people in it, then certainly that same God could will a woman pregnant with divine child. Naturally speaking, that doesn't happen. You're right. But we're talking about the supernatural. Furthermore. it is not intellectually valid to insist God does not exist because he is said to have done things supernaturally that don't happen naturally, because if God does exist, certainly he is capable of such things.
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  • Restless Soul
    Restless Soul Posts: 805
    sorry repeat post = deleted!
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  • THC
    THC Posts: 525
    Collin wrote:
    It has happened before.

    yeah? by who?
    “Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
    -Big Fish
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    THC wrote:
    yeah? by who?

    I don't know... Heracles? :)

    All I'm saying is it's not so surprising that somebody became famous fast. And it didn't happen all that fast either, it took a while before the Bible was written so lot's of time for exaggeration, wonderful stories... It doesn't mean it happened.

    I'm not saying it didn't happen, though, I just don't think it happened.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Solat13 wrote:
    Uh, St. Peter the first Pope and the "Rock upon which I will build my church on Earth" was married. So why would the Church leave out the part about Jesus being married, but leave in the part about Peter being married. Many of the apostles were married and the whole priests being forced to be celibate didn't come around until the Middle Ages.

    becos peter was already flawed and so were all the apostles. but jesus, the perfect one, didnt get his groove on and none of us are supposed to. but it's something the priests will forgive us for doing if we ask nicely and dont fuck anyone but our spouse.
  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    soulsinging wrote:
    becos peter was already flawed and so were all the apostles. but jesus, the perfect one, didnt get his groove on and none of us are supposed to. but it's something the priests will forgive us for doing if we ask nicely and dont fuck anyone but our spouse.

    That's pretty harsh, bro
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    cornnifer wrote:
    Thanks for the "birds and bees" talk, Souls. You mean the Stork didn't drop me off? ;)
    As a Christian who has no problem with te idea of the virgin birth, and a father with three children, none of which were immaculately concieved, i know how babies are concieved. What you are doing though, is completely ruling out the possibility of the supernatural. Were talking about God, here. i know many here have no faith in God whatsoever, but that isn't the point. If in fact God designed and created the Universe and the people in it, then certainly that same God could will a woman pregnant with divine child. Naturally speaking, that doesn't happen. You're right. But we're talking about the supernatural. Furthermore. it is not intellectually valid to insist God does not exist because he is said to have done things supernaturally that don't happen naturally, because if God does exist, certainly he is capable of such things.

    im not saying it isn't possible nor ruling out divine intervention. i happen to think it unlikely, but that's another matter. i was simply pointing out that him saying there is no "evidence" against it is a ridiculous statement becos there is plenty of evidence against it and the only evidence supporting it comes from the bible. it's just a logical and argumentative fallacy is all. i dont like people asserting biblical stories as scientific or historical fact. it does not mean they aren't true, or that belief in them is irrational, just that it's not grounds to say "see, no evidence!"
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    fanch75 wrote:
    That's pretty harsh, bro

    how so? it's how the system operates. jesus resists all temptation. we can't, but they'll forgive us for having that dirty sex stuff becos we're only human and cant be as perfect and sexless as jesus or a priest.
  • THC
    THC Posts: 525
    soulsinging wrote:
    how so? it's how the system operates. jesus resists all temptation. we can't, but they'll forgive us for having that dirty sex stuff becos we're only human and cant be as perfect and sexless as jesus or a priest.

    don't forget soulsinging...that Jesus when he was on earth hung out w/ the lowly people of society (the people who were looked down on for their sins- prostitutes...tax collectors...leapers (who supposedly did something bad to get that disease).

    Jesus recognized human temptation...and forgave it. He did not expect us to all be as holy as he was. he did not think this life was easy...and that we did not have bodies w/ urges. He knew this...yet still forgave people. he did not judge them to be horrible. most of these people were his friends. he even forgave the man who betrayed him.

    the Jesus I believe in...is not the one who points the finger and condems (i believe that is the devil who tries to condem us). He is the one who is there to defend humans...in fact...one of his last words were..."Father...forgive them...for they know not what they do".

    I think the attitude of intolerance and judgement you talk about is what it has evolved into in many ways. Very similar to the way of intolerance and religious superiority that permeated in Jesus's age. that is the same hypocracy Jesus pointed out within the pharases. Jesus is a God of Love and forgiveness. His best human friend was Mary Magdalane...a supposed women of ill repute. He wants people to love one another. That is his main message. Not to Judge one another...but to Love one another.
    “Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
    -Big Fish
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    THC wrote:
    don't forget soulsinging...that Jesus when he was on earth hung out w/ the lowly people of society (the people who were looked down on for their sins- prostitutes...tax collectors...leapers (who supposedly did something bad to get that disease).

    Jesus recognized human temptation...and forgave it. He did not expect us to all be as holy as he was. he did not think this life was easy...and that we did not have bodies w/ urges. He knew this...yet still forgave people. he did not judge them to be horrible. most of these people were his friends. he even forgave the man who betrayed him.

    the Jesus I believe in...is not the one who points the finger and condems (i believe that is the devil who tries to condem us). He is the one who is there to defend humans...in fact...one of his last words were..."Father...forgive them...for they know not what they do".

    I think the attitude of intolerance and judgement you talk about is what it has evolved into in many ways. Very similar to the way of intolerance and religious superiority that permeated in Jesus's age. that is the same hypocracy Jesus pointed out within the pharases. Jesus is a God of Love and forgiveness. His best human friend was Mary Magdalane...a supposed women of ill repute. He wants people to love one another. That is his main message. Not to Judge one another...but to Love one another.

    where did i fault jesus for it? i was simply pointing out how the church has abused it and why it is so important for them that jesus did not have a wife.
  • THC
    THC Posts: 525
    soulsinging wrote:
    you mean evidence like the evidence that scientifically virgins don't have babies... that you've got to get laid to have kids? i suppose what you mean is you're not aware of any bible stories contradicting that. as far as revisionist history, the new testament is the greatest example of revisionist history ever written. and the great part is its devotees are willfully ignorant about it.

    i don't know...maybe around this part...?

    don't discount Jesus because you disagree w/ how men have abused his teachings after his death.
    “Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
    -Big Fish
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,223
    Kann wrote:
    On the brother thing, I disagree with Jesus having brothers, step or blood. Catholic prayers are dedicated to virgin Mary :
    1 - That doesn't make sense if she had children "the normal way" later on.
    2 - If I'm not mistaken christian faith stipulates giving birth is a reminder of the original sin. So if a woman gives birth (again "the normal way") she taints herself with a sin and this is incoherent with the "pure" nature of Mary.
    (then again this is true for catholics, I have no idea for other confessions).
    I think James was a metaphorical brother, perhaps a cousin?
    1 - If Jesus was her oldest son and was a virgin when she conceived him, she could still have the title Virgin Mary. All that would matter is that she conceived Jesus as a virgin, any other children of hers is immaterial.
    2 - It's not childbirth itself that is the reminder of original sin, it's the pain felt during childbirth. This still doesn't mean having a child is a sin and that she is tainting herself with a sin; the pain felt by Mary, and all women who give birth naturally, is just the punishment for the original sin.
  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    markymark550 wrote:
    This still doesn't mean having a child is a sin and that she is tainting herself with a sin; the pain felt by Mary, and all women who give birth naturally, is just the punishment for the original sin.

    I never knew this. Is it considered sin then for the mother giving birth to take the epideral (sp?) in order to eliminate the pain?
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    fanch75 wrote:
    I never knew this. Is it considered sin then for the mother giving birth to take the epideral (sp?) in order to eliminate the pain?
    It's in Genesis. Taking painkillers during childbirth shouldn't be a sin. I couldn't find it in the rules laid out for Jewish people in the Old Testament, It's not part of the Ten Commandments, not part of the two rulees as laid out by Jesus in the New Testament.

    On a related note, I couldn't find anywhere where it says it's a sin to take my fine girl out tonight and get loaded like a freight train.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • miller8966
    miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    surferdude wrote:
    It's in Genesis. Taking painkillers during childbirth shouldn't be a sin. I couldn't find it in the rules laid out for Jewish people in the Old Testament, It's not part of the Ten Commandments, not part of the two rulees as laid out by Jesus in the New Testament.

    On a related note, I couldn't find anywhere where it says it's a sin to take my fine girl out tonight and get loaded like a freight train.

    getting loaded is looked down upon to an extent.
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  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    surferdude wrote:
    loaded like a freight train.

    Kick ass. Nice GNR Appetite for Destruction reference.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    fanch75 wrote:
    Kick ass. Nice GNR Appetite for Destruction reference.
    It's Friday. Let the Crue and Gunners ring loud.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,223
    surferdude wrote:
    On a related note, I couldn't find anywhere where it says it's a sin to take my fine girl out tonight and get loaded like a freight train.
    It's not a sin to drink alcohol. The sin in going out and getting drunk is overindulgance. Without a Bible handy here at work, I'm not sure where it's stated, but it is in there. However, since I believe that God is compassionate and forgiving, he will forgive you for drinking too much every now and then.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    THC wrote:
    i don't know...maybe around this part...?

    don't discount Jesus because you disagree w/ how men have abused his teachings after his death.

    where does that part deny anything about jesus being a great man or even a messiah? im just saying that just becos the bible says so doesnt mean mary was a virgin when she was knocked up. furthermore, what do you care if i discount jesus or worship him?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    markymark550 wrote:
    It's not a sin to drink alcohol. The sin in going out and getting drunk is overindulgance. Without a Bible handy here at work, I'm not sure where it's stated, but it is in there. However, since I believe that God is compassionate and forgiving, he will forgive you for drinking too much every now and then.

    why that but not for having sex with a man, marrying a man, having a baby out of wedlock, having an abortion, cheating on my wife, etc...?

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