These sorts of miracles happen every day around the world, but we always dismiss them. These days, all we want is a 'perfectly reasonable scientific explanation' for them which, obviously, the ancient jews and Christians weren't looking for.
They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
And you're assuming that those who think it is ok to have sex outside of marriage also think wearing a condom is going too far. THAT is what I meant about painting with broad strokes.
where did i say that? i said some people honestly do exactly this and those people are funny cos it makes no sense. geez, you christians are so damned defensive. just looking for reasons to be offended arent you?
I attend a Community church; they have men and women working together. They don't have a woman's pastor or anything but they have women that lead the womens ministries.
so women are not allowed to hold positions of power like the pastor?
They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.
It depends what kind of miracles you are looking for. 2000 years of immaculate conceptions? A new savior every year? Some would argue that miracles DO happen in downtown New York.
As far as the second part of this post, personally, i'll be honest, lately i 'm having a hard time believing God is as involved in the fortunes of man as we sometimes like to think. Perhaps, yes, it is because we have collectively turned our backs and decided to make our own way, i don't know. Don't get me wrong, my faith in God and Christ as my savior is as strong as ever.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
where did i say that? i said some people honestly do exactly this and those people are funny cos it makes no sense. geez, you christians are so damned defensive. just looking for reasons to be offended arent you?
Let's be fair, Souls, you do make some pretty broad generalizations about Christians.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.
Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
It depends what kind of miracles you are looking for. 2000 years of immaculate conceptions? A new savior every year? Some would argue that miracles DO happen in downtown New York.
As far as the second part of this post, personally, i'll be honest, lately i 'm having a hard time believing God is as involved in the fortunes of man as we sometimes like to think. Perhaps, yes, it is because we have collectively turned our backs and decided to make our own way, i don't know. Don't get me wrong, my faith in God and Christ as my savior is as strong as ever.
I believe you're right, personally. Just IMO. It's because we're not interested in God. If I'm trying to be somebody's friend, and they're like 'Screw you, you ugly twat,' I'm not going to walk up to them and talk to them. If they're not interested in me in the slightest, I'll say OK, you're on your own.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.
I very much agree. I see God and miracles all around me. It's a matter of attuning oneself to this level of life. And the more one focuses on such attunement, the more it reveals itself to one. To quote the title of one of my favourite inspirational books "You'll See it When You Believe it". We literally choose the parameters of what we allow in by our own brain programming. Some see miracles. Some see limits.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Let's be fair, Souls, you do make some pretty broad generalizations about Christians.
i didnt with that statement. i said that those particular people bearing that particularly goofy and inconsequential viewpoint are funny. i think the real problem is dskt or whoever need remove the stick from their arse and loosen up.
I believe you're right, personally. Just IMO. It's because we're not interested in God. If I'm trying to be somebody's friend, and they're like 'Screw you, you ugly twat,' I'm not going to walk up to them and talk to them. If they're not interested in me in the slightest, I'll say OK, you're on your own.
so god is just a petulant and vain human who happens to have superpowers and live forever? the christian view i was given of god is that those people who ignore him the most are the ones he will try hardest to reach.
so women are not allowed to hold positions of power like the pastor?
they are pastors of womens ministries and the church utilizes women VERY well... i know the loaded statement when i see it. We don't have a woman senior pastor but we by no stretch of the imagination keep their heads covered and only in charge of the nursery / kitchen like I think you were hoping
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
they are pastors of womens ministries and the church utilizes women VERY well... i know the loaded statement when i see it. We don't have a woman senior pastor but we by no stretch of the imagination keep their heads covered and only in charge of the nursery / kitchen like I think you were hoping
no, im hoping that they can hold every position of power men can. are women ALLOWED to be senior pastor? i dont care if there is one, but are they allowed to obtain that post? or is the highest position in your church, the one that makes all final decisions, solely reserved for men? that's what i want to know. far as i can see, if all they can do is women's ministry, how is that different from keeping them in the nursery and kitchen? they're still only allowed to do women's work and men are the only ones allowed real power and influence within the church.
from time to time. ive also been known to be a stuanch defender of the reasonableness of religious belief when people attack it as being totally dumb and irrelevant. i simply attack blind devotion in all forms on either side. be it mindless, arrogant atheism, or willfully ignorant and dismissive fundatmentalism.
no, im hoping that they can hold every position of power men can. are women ALLOWED to be senior pastor? i dont care if there is one, but are they allowed to obtain that post? or is the highest position in your church, the one that makes all final decisions, solely reserved for men? that's what i want to know. far as i can see, if all they can do is women's ministry, how is that different from keeping them in the nursery and kitchen? they're still only allowed to do women's work and men are the only ones allowed real power and influence within the church.
my guess is they aren't allowed to hold the post of senior pastor. I'd ask you, what is your idea of womens ministry? It seems you have them pegged as only doing the food service and taking care of kids. They offer bible studies, classes (for stay at home moms and professional women), women are voting members in the church (so they have a say in who the Senior pastor is, just like the men who are members do).
To be honest there are multiple pastors; I just switched churches a few months ago and I don't really know the politics of the church too much. The reason I swithced is b/c they are very good at integrating with the community and the other churches in the area. It seems they are really trying to build people up not cause divisions and segregation (and they are keeping theologically sound; it's not a "rah rah feel good all the time" sort of place; it is a very practical place and they try to make the christian walk seem real not by just saying things, but by practicing what they preach.)
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
From the Bible:
"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25)
This passage says Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until she'd given birth, implying that they did have sex after Jesus was born. And I remember learning in my History of Christian thought class that a Jewish marriage was not official until it was consummated by sex, so if Joseph and Mary never had sex, that means they were never officially married in the Jewish religion.
The Bible also says that Jesus had siblings:
"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters here with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13:55-56)
"Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph (or Joses), Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" (Mark 6:3)
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."" (Luke 8:19-21)
"After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, 'You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.' For even his own brothers did not believe in him...However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret." (John 7:1-5,10)
So what I gather from all this is that Mary was a virgin that had Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, and then she and Joseph consummated their marriage after Jesus was born, and had sons and daughters after Jesus. I really don't think this should adversely affect Christianity; just because Jesus had brothers and sisters and just because Mary didn't remain a virgin her whole life doesn't change that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and it also doesn't alter his teachings and his message.
I don't think Jesus was married, and the Bible doesn't say that he was, but if he was, I don't see why it's such a big deal. There's no requirement that says the Messiah or the Son of God had to remain a virgin.
Chicago 2000 : Chicago 2003 : Chicago 2006 : Summerfest 2006 : Lollapalooza 2007 : Chicago 2009 : Noblesville (Indy) 2010 : PJ20 (East Troy) 2011 : Wrigley Field 2013 : Milwaukee (Yield) 2014 : Wrigley Field 2016
Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.
yeah but a tribe in Papua New Guinea will think they have angered the spirits and go to the witch doctor for help, when there is almost certainly a rational explantation for the problem their community is facing. In biblical times miracles (at least according to the bible) done in front of the Roman and Greeks for example who were not as supernaturally inclined as the Jews. Why not today?
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
from time to time. ive also been known to be a stuanch defender of the reasonableness of religious belief when people attack it as being totally dumb and irrelevant. i simply attack blind devotion in all forms on either side. be it mindless, arrogant atheism, or willfully ignorant and dismissive fundatmentalism.
Thank you soulsinging for "speaking" so eloquently my own point of view.:)
I have always held to the quote " I may not agree with what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it" This is also my motto for belief. Believe what you will and I will believe what I will and hopefully we can learn something from each other, it is not necessary to try to change each others mind.
Anyone else read through this thread and feel the immediate urge to have a beer? The contributors to this thread should contact Budweiser's marketing department. You're on a winner
Anyone else read through this thread and feel the immediate urge to have a beer? The contributors to this thread should contact Budweiser's marketing department. You're on a winner
Geez! I'll have to go read the whole thing now! Thanks for that! NOT!
yeah but a tribe in Papua New Guinea will think they have angered the spirits and go to the witch doctor for help, when there is almost certainly a rational explantation for the problem their community is facing. In biblical times miracles (at least according to the bible) done in front of the Roman and Greeks for example who were not as supernaturally inclined as the Jews. Why not today?
Well, I would argue miracles are still happening today.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
yeah but a tribe in Papua New Guinea will think they have angered the spirits and go to the witch doctor for help, when there is almost certainly a rational explantation for the problem their community is facing. In biblical times miracles (at least according to the bible) done in front of the Roman and Greeks for example who were not as supernaturally inclined as the Jews. Why not today?
I've personally experienced miracle healings of numerous mental illnesses. It's a huge miracle for myself and those around me, however sometimes people want to see it otherwise. Most of my family members are athiests and when I began having stunning visions that showed me I would heal myself 12 years ago (and when I was very broken down and ill), I was considered even more mentally ill. The "problem" for the athiests and doctors who denounced the "magic" and visions I saw, is that I DID heal myself, and I did so in a "shamanistic" sense through spiritual guidance and inspiration. For many years now, seeing I'm healed and vibrantly healthy, I have many family members (who do not believe in spirituality) who although they cannot acknowledge divine intervention in my life, are undoubtedly humbled towards myself and the processes I've been through. They know I understand things they do not. They realize how wrong they've been, and they give my ideas a philosophies a new respect, considering some very far-reaching ramifications of my miraculous healings.
There may ultimately be a rational explanation for what has happened to me. I believe I have accessed natural forces most people won't acknowledge and yet that anyone can tap into. Unfortunately, due to the fact that people cannot imagine this type of healing or energy/power to be real, they will not access it. That's due to a lack of faith. I'm a fluke according to science, because they as yet don't understand. Since I consistently healed diverse disorders with the same basic understandings, I've seen that such healing can happen for others. And I see that most others are limited by putting their faith in science, instead, when science is bound by it's limitations at this time. By it's very nature, it does not encourage individuals accessing their spiritual nature and the very ground forces we spring from. Due to imbalanced beliefs in science (where we believe in it at the expense of our other less physically outletted intelligences) many of us shun our higher levels of being in this lifetime. As we progress, and learn to expand our consciousness more and more, this will change. As humans on the whole expand their consciousness, then new levels of awareness will support new revolutions in our understanding in all areas, including science. As always, what we see is defined by what we are willing to see.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Miracles do happen, but there isn't an all-powerful being pulling the strings on them.
It is so lovely to hear everyone's opinions, isn't it.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
my guess is they aren't allowed to hold the post of senior pastor. I'd ask you, what is your idea of womens ministry? It seems you have them pegged as only doing the food service and taking care of kids. They offer bible studies, classes (for stay at home moms and professional women), women are voting members in the church (so they have a say in who the Senior pastor is, just like the men who are members do).
To be honest there are multiple pastors; I just switched churches a few months ago and I don't really know the politics of the church too much. The reason I swithced is b/c they are very good at integrating with the community and the other churches in the area. It seems they are really trying to build people up not cause divisions and segregation (and they are keeping theologically sound; it's not a "rah rah feel good all the time" sort of place; it is a very practical place and they try to make the christian walk seem real not by just saying things, but by practicing what they preach.)
thank you, that is what i suspected. my vision of women's ministry has nothing to do with kitchens and babies. it has to do with them ministering to women... ie. NOT ever telling men what to do. which is also why they cannot be head pastor. becos men can order women around, but the church will never let a woman be in a position where they might be giving orders to men.
You know that nobody can say that they know, but just looking at the history of mankind and observing the diversity of beliefs in the world today and throughout history, I can tell you without hesitation that all religions are concoctions of their society. Most religions vary greatly on what they believe is god (or gods), but all religions reward good behaviour with life after death and punish bad behaviour with some kind of soul-torture. The reason why societies create religions and gods is to try to offer people an easy answer to questions of life and death. The religions that are practised in the world these days developed more than 2000 years ago. People didn't have any real knowledge of the human body and how it worked back then, so they needed something to explain the unexplainable (death, sickness, healing, etc). God provides a really easy answer to all of life's questions. "I don't know, God?" could be the answer to everything could it not? I am also aware that many religious organizations do nothing but good in the world and I am grateful for that. However, religion inevitably comes down to power and control. Most people are so stupid and take religion so seriously that they allow themselves get manipulated by it. Honestly, I really don't care what people believe, just as long as they leave me out of it and it affects me as little as possible. If your religion is good enough, don't worry about what other people think about it. All you creationists out there have to admit that it's kind of ironic that men actually created God though -- am I right?
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
thank you, that is what i suspected. my vision of women's ministry has nothing to do with kitchens and babies. it has to do with them ministering to women... ie. NOT ever telling men what to do. which is also why they cannot be head pastor. becos men can order women around, but the church will never let a woman be in a position where they might be giving orders to men.
i disagree with your assumption that there is ordering around, so to speak. Do men make decisions, absolutely, do women have a say in it...absolutely, it's called being a member and voting on issues, voting on pastors etc. Again, it may be different in the catholic church; i've only been to one. But there is a lot less ordering around in the churches I've been affiliated with. The members have the say in their church, not some diocese (sp?) from far away.
and i looked into it. Our church has deacons and deaconesses who play a major role in the church. But to be honest, it doesn't matter to me if I get your stamp of approval on the church I attend. It matters to me when people have certain assertations that are misguided.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
You know that nobody can say that they know, but just looking at the history of mankind and observing the diversity of beliefs in the world today and throughout history, I can tell you without hesitation that all religions are concoctions of their society. Most religions vary greatly on what they believe is god (or gods), but all religions reward good behaviour with life after death and punish bad behaviour with some kind of soul-torture.
I've had many spiritual experiences, being interactions with an underlying intelligence of life that has interacted with me, communicating love and wisdom to me that has been directly applicable in my life in solving my life problems, and in my healings and in affecting others. Since I have not adhered to any spiritual traditions, or beliefs, I feel very fortunate, because through these experiences, I have experienced them as they are. Due to my raw experience with this level of existence I can understand how each and every belief that I've ever encountered springs from this "energy" or this understanding. Even though many spiritual paths appear diverse--ultimately, they hinge on the very same forces imo, filtered through varying cultural or evolutionary worldviews. I have yet to hear an interpretation of this energy--a spiritual or religious view that did not apply to what I've experienced. That is why such energy is universal.
You say no one can say they "know". I beg to differ. I agree one cannot prove this energy, or level of existence. Proving and knowing are two entirely different things, though. If one does not know this energy experientially, they cannot make a reasoned case for it's non-existence, since all they can honestly state is that they have not experienced it themselves. A lack of experience or understanding of something is exactly that and is therefore the opposite of knowing or understanding what it is.
The reason why societies create religions and gods is to try to offer people an easy answer to questions of life and death.
You might feel very differently if you were to have a spiritual experience, personally.
The religions that are practised in the world these days developed more than 2000 years ago. People didn't have any real knowledge of the human body and how it worked back then, so they needed something to explain the unexplainable (death, sickness, healing, etc).
In my view, life happens on many levels. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. Each level effects its counterparts. What happens on the phsyical level affects the mental level. What happens on a spiritual level affects the physical, etc. They are interrelated. Because we understand rationally what happens does not negate the deeper meaning and understanding of those objective happenings. It does not negate our emotional or spiritual understandings of such happenings.
God provides a really easy answer to all of life's questions.
My emotional understanding does not hinge on logical or rational explanations, and yet it constitutes the foundation of my emotional intelligence. EQ has real and studied ramifactions in quality of life for the individual. Similarily, a developed spiritual capacity trickles into one's day to day living in ways quite separate from logic and rational understanding. These intelligences can work in harmony and complementary to one another. However when we use one intelligence at the expense of another, we do not receive the full benefit of any.
"I don't know, God?" could be the answer to everything could it not? I am also aware that many religious organizations do nothing but good in the world and I am grateful for that. However, religion inevitably comes down to power and control. Most people are so stupid and take religion so seriously that they allow themselves get manipulated by it. Honestly, I really don't care what people believe, just as long as they leave me out of it and it affects me as little as possible. If your religion is good enough, don't worry about what other people think about it. All you creationists out there have to admit that it's kind of ironic that men actually created God though -- am I right?
People are where they are evolutionarily speaking, doing what they can with what they are equipped with. It's widely known in personality typing that 70% of the population is not in touch with their own insights and rather look to authority to pave the way for them. It looks like you are comfortable putting the label of "stupid" on what just is the way it is.
It sounds like you do care what people believe, by your coming in these threads and making counter points.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If he wasn't born of a virgin he would not have been the fullfillment of the prophecy that the messiah would have been born of a virgin; rendering him only human. So yes, that would have a drastic change on my faith. However, I am not aware of any evidence that points to that, aside from some revisionist history.
Does that mean you DO have evidence that Jesus was born of a virgin?
I am an atheist but would be happy to convert were I to see the evidence so I'd be delighted if you could share it with us.
Comments
They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
where did i say that? i said some people honestly do exactly this and those people are funny cos it makes no sense. geez, you christians are so damned defensive. just looking for reasons to be offended arent you?
so women are not allowed to hold positions of power like the pastor?
It depends what kind of miracles you are looking for. 2000 years of immaculate conceptions? A new savior every year? Some would argue that miracles DO happen in downtown New York.
As far as the second part of this post, personally, i'll be honest, lately i 'm having a hard time believing God is as involved in the fortunes of man as we sometimes like to think. Perhaps, yes, it is because we have collectively turned our backs and decided to make our own way, i don't know. Don't get me wrong, my faith in God and Christ as my savior is as strong as ever.
Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
I believe you're right, personally. Just IMO. It's because we're not interested in God. If I'm trying to be somebody's friend, and they're like 'Screw you, you ugly twat,' I'm not going to walk up to them and talk to them. If they're not interested in me in the slightest, I'll say OK, you're on your own.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i didnt with that statement. i said that those particular people bearing that particularly goofy and inconsequential viewpoint are funny. i think the real problem is dskt or whoever need remove the stick from their arse and loosen up.
so god is just a petulant and vain human who happens to have superpowers and live forever? the christian view i was given of god is that those people who ignore him the most are the ones he will try hardest to reach.
they are pastors of womens ministries and the church utilizes women VERY well... i know the loaded statement when i see it. We don't have a woman senior pastor but we by no stretch of the imagination keep their heads covered and only in charge of the nursery / kitchen like I think you were hoping
Ahhh... but you admit that you do.
no, im hoping that they can hold every position of power men can. are women ALLOWED to be senior pastor? i dont care if there is one, but are they allowed to obtain that post? or is the highest position in your church, the one that makes all final decisions, solely reserved for men? that's what i want to know. far as i can see, if all they can do is women's ministry, how is that different from keeping them in the nursery and kitchen? they're still only allowed to do women's work and men are the only ones allowed real power and influence within the church.
from time to time. ive also been known to be a stuanch defender of the reasonableness of religious belief when people attack it as being totally dumb and irrelevant. i simply attack blind devotion in all forms on either side. be it mindless, arrogant atheism, or willfully ignorant and dismissive fundatmentalism.
my guess is they aren't allowed to hold the post of senior pastor. I'd ask you, what is your idea of womens ministry? It seems you have them pegged as only doing the food service and taking care of kids. They offer bible studies, classes (for stay at home moms and professional women), women are voting members in the church (so they have a say in who the Senior pastor is, just like the men who are members do).
To be honest there are multiple pastors; I just switched churches a few months ago and I don't really know the politics of the church too much. The reason I swithced is b/c they are very good at integrating with the community and the other churches in the area. It seems they are really trying to build people up not cause divisions and segregation (and they are keeping theologically sound; it's not a "rah rah feel good all the time" sort of place; it is a very practical place and they try to make the christian walk seem real not by just saying things, but by practicing what they preach.)
"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25)
This passage says Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until she'd given birth, implying that they did have sex after Jesus was born. And I remember learning in my History of Christian thought class that a Jewish marriage was not official until it was consummated by sex, so if Joseph and Mary never had sex, that means they were never officially married in the Jewish religion.
The Bible also says that Jesus had siblings:
"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters here with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13:55-56)
"Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph (or Joses), Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" (Mark 6:3)
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."" (Luke 8:19-21)
"After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, 'You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.' For even his own brothers did not believe in him...However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret." (John 7:1-5,10)
So what I gather from all this is that Mary was a virgin that had Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, and then she and Joseph consummated their marriage after Jesus was born, and had sons and daughters after Jesus. I really don't think this should adversely affect Christianity; just because Jesus had brothers and sisters and just because Mary didn't remain a virgin her whole life doesn't change that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and it also doesn't alter his teachings and his message.
I don't think Jesus was married, and the Bible doesn't say that he was, but if he was, I don't see why it's such a big deal. There's no requirement that says the Messiah or the Son of God had to remain a virgin.
yeah but a tribe in Papua New Guinea will think they have angered the spirits and go to the witch doctor for help, when there is almost certainly a rational explantation for the problem their community is facing. In biblical times miracles (at least according to the bible) done in front of the Roman and Greeks for example who were not as supernaturally inclined as the Jews. Why not today?
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
Thank you soulsinging for "speaking" so eloquently my own point of view.:)
I have always held to the quote " I may not agree with what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it" This is also my motto for belief. Believe what you will and I will believe what I will and hopefully we can learn something from each other, it is not necessary to try to change each others mind.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
lifewasted.net
Geez! I'll have to go read the whole thing now! Thanks for that! NOT!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Well, I would argue miracles are still happening today.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
I've personally experienced miracle healings of numerous mental illnesses. It's a huge miracle for myself and those around me, however sometimes people want to see it otherwise. Most of my family members are athiests and when I began having stunning visions that showed me I would heal myself 12 years ago (and when I was very broken down and ill), I was considered even more mentally ill. The "problem" for the athiests and doctors who denounced the "magic" and visions I saw, is that I DID heal myself, and I did so in a "shamanistic" sense through spiritual guidance and inspiration. For many years now, seeing I'm healed and vibrantly healthy, I have many family members (who do not believe in spirituality) who although they cannot acknowledge divine intervention in my life, are undoubtedly humbled towards myself and the processes I've been through. They know I understand things they do not. They realize how wrong they've been, and they give my ideas a philosophies a new respect, considering some very far-reaching ramifications of my miraculous healings.
There may ultimately be a rational explanation for what has happened to me. I believe I have accessed natural forces most people won't acknowledge and yet that anyone can tap into. Unfortunately, due to the fact that people cannot imagine this type of healing or energy/power to be real, they will not access it. That's due to a lack of faith. I'm a fluke according to science, because they as yet don't understand. Since I consistently healed diverse disorders with the same basic understandings, I've seen that such healing can happen for others. And I see that most others are limited by putting their faith in science, instead, when science is bound by it's limitations at this time. By it's very nature, it does not encourage individuals accessing their spiritual nature and the very ground forces we spring from. Due to imbalanced beliefs in science (where we believe in it at the expense of our other less physically outletted intelligences) many of us shun our higher levels of being in this lifetime. As we progress, and learn to expand our consciousness more and more, this will change. As humans on the whole expand their consciousness, then new levels of awareness will support new revolutions in our understanding in all areas, including science. As always, what we see is defined by what we are willing to see.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It is so lovely to hear everyone's opinions, isn't it.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
thank you, that is what i suspected. my vision of women's ministry has nothing to do with kitchens and babies. it has to do with them ministering to women... ie. NOT ever telling men what to do. which is also why they cannot be head pastor. becos men can order women around, but the church will never let a woman be in a position where they might be giving orders to men.
You know that nobody can say that they know, but just looking at the history of mankind and observing the diversity of beliefs in the world today and throughout history, I can tell you without hesitation that all religions are concoctions of their society. Most religions vary greatly on what they believe is god (or gods), but all religions reward good behaviour with life after death and punish bad behaviour with some kind of soul-torture. The reason why societies create religions and gods is to try to offer people an easy answer to questions of life and death. The religions that are practised in the world these days developed more than 2000 years ago. People didn't have any real knowledge of the human body and how it worked back then, so they needed something to explain the unexplainable (death, sickness, healing, etc). God provides a really easy answer to all of life's questions. "I don't know, God?" could be the answer to everything could it not? I am also aware that many religious organizations do nothing but good in the world and I am grateful for that. However, religion inevitably comes down to power and control. Most people are so stupid and take religion so seriously that they allow themselves get manipulated by it. Honestly, I really don't care what people believe, just as long as they leave me out of it and it affects me as little as possible. If your religion is good enough, don't worry about what other people think about it. All you creationists out there have to admit that it's kind of ironic that men actually created God though -- am I right?
i disagree with your assumption that there is ordering around, so to speak. Do men make decisions, absolutely, do women have a say in it...absolutely, it's called being a member and voting on issues, voting on pastors etc. Again, it may be different in the catholic church; i've only been to one. But there is a lot less ordering around in the churches I've been affiliated with. The members have the say in their church, not some diocese (sp?) from far away.
and i looked into it. Our church has deacons and deaconesses who play a major role in the church. But to be honest, it doesn't matter to me if I get your stamp of approval on the church I attend. It matters to me when people have certain assertations that are misguided.
You say no one can say they "know". I beg to differ. I agree one cannot prove this energy, or level of existence. Proving and knowing are two entirely different things, though. If one does not know this energy experientially, they cannot make a reasoned case for it's non-existence, since all they can honestly state is that they have not experienced it themselves. A lack of experience or understanding of something is exactly that and is therefore the opposite of knowing or understanding what it is.
You might feel very differently if you were to have a spiritual experience, personally.
In my view, life happens on many levels. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. Each level effects its counterparts. What happens on the phsyical level affects the mental level. What happens on a spiritual level affects the physical, etc. They are interrelated. Because we understand rationally what happens does not negate the deeper meaning and understanding of those objective happenings. It does not negate our emotional or spiritual understandings of such happenings.
My emotional understanding does not hinge on logical or rational explanations, and yet it constitutes the foundation of my emotional intelligence. EQ has real and studied ramifactions in quality of life for the individual. Similarily, a developed spiritual capacity trickles into one's day to day living in ways quite separate from logic and rational understanding. These intelligences can work in harmony and complementary to one another. However when we use one intelligence at the expense of another, we do not receive the full benefit of any.
People are where they are evolutionarily speaking, doing what they can with what they are equipped with. It's widely known in personality typing that 70% of the population is not in touch with their own insights and rather look to authority to pave the way for them. It looks like you are comfortable putting the label of "stupid" on what just is the way it is.
It sounds like you do care what people believe, by your coming in these threads and making counter points.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Does that mean you DO have evidence that Jesus was born of a virgin?
I am an atheist but would be happy to convert were I to see the evidence so I'd be delighted if you could share it with us.