On July 4, Put Away Your Flags

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  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Well, I think that's assumed. Assuming there's a god, we must also assume he's not stupid.

    I don't. I think its just saying that God should bless America. Like when someone says "God bless you" to someone who sneezes, they're not saying, God ONLY bless you.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    Because saying that God should single out America to be blessed is saying that God should only bless America (or be included in whatever few things ought to be blessed).

    Which is different than just saying that God should bless America, which says nothing about what else God should bless.
    I disagree. I'm not even sure what to say. The feeling of superiority is something that is absolutely instilled in our brains as children. It's pure arrogance. To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.

    I think if you just look at the words in that song, and you think that it is saying to only bless America, than you are making a pretty big leap.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • ThreeLayers
    ThreeLayers Posts: 4
    yosi wrote:
    I think if you just look at the words in that song, and you think that it is saying to only bless America, than you are making a pretty big leap.

    I would say it's an "outrageous conclusion."
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    I don't. I think its just saying that God should bless America. Like when someone says "God bless you" to someone who sneezes, they're not saying, God ONLY bless you.
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    I disagree. I'm not even sure what to say. The feeling of superiority is something that is absolutely instilled in our brains as children. It's pure arrogance.

    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".
    don't gimme no wrote:
    To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.

    I believe it is an outrageous conclusion considering the song does not specifically say that.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".



    I believe it is an outrageous conclusion considering the song does not specifically say that.
    well, if you think americans don't think they deserve god's blessings more than any other nation than you've come to an outrageous conclusion of your own.

    So maybe it's not God Bless ONLY America. But certainly they're asking for more blessings for america than say, Iraq....
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can take pride in our great nation.

    Even if I grant you the point that the song gives us a false idea that America is a morally superior nation (which is far different from saying that God would single it out for blessing, but whatever....), it still doesn't mean that every single American is going around humming that 24/7 or repeating it as a mantra. In other words, it's giving the song a lot more credibility than it deserves.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.

    I don't think you're reading the song correctly at all. Its saying that we should be thankful to live in America because it is a great country. Fine. But I don't think that's necessarily a put down on other countries.

    But even more, the song is asking God to guide America, because the people leading the country need guidance, and need to be blessed because they aren't perfect. They need help to keep the country good.

    At least that's how I read it. It doesn't say anything, anywhere about moral superiority, nor does it imply it.

    Its like asking God to protect your family because you love them, not because you think they are better.

    I just don't agree with your understanding of the song at all.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".
    Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?
  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    don't gimme no wrote:
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.

    So kids in England when they sing God Save the Queen think all other monarchs in the world should die a grisly death?

    Or when Canadians sing O Canada they think God should only keep Canada glorious and free?
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  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    don't gimme no wrote:
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.
    What is "false history"? History is just a story of events from a point of view. Columbus is no more "false history" than black history month is? I hope ever country feels a bit of moral superiority, why would you want a country to be anything other than the best it can be. America likes most countries was set up to be better than the previous form of government, a certain feeling of superiority is natural, much like a major league ballplayer feels he's a better player than a AAA ballplayer. In either case they still make errors and hopefully work hard to make fewer in the future.

    Are you advocating instilling a sense of moral insecurity in children and students. I could imagine the class "Now kids, today we are going to learn how dumb we are as people and Americans. We will learn why the world would be better off without us."
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?

    You were taught that America is "morally superior" to other countries?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    well, if you think americans don't think they deserve god's blessings more than any other nation than you've come to an outrageous conclusion of your own.

    So maybe it's not God Bless ONLY America. But certainly they're asking for more blessings for america than say, Iraq....

    As I've said, I've really never heard anyone espouse that America deserved God's blessings anymore than anyone else....nevermind the majority saying that. I know I certainly do not believe that Americans are more deserving.

    As I said in the beginning, count me in the camp that thinks nationalism is wrong. That may be the most outrageous conclusion I have on this subject.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Even if I grant you the point that the song gives us a false idea that America is a morally superior nation (which is far different from saying that God would single it out for blessing, but whatever....), it still doesn't mean that every single American is going around humming that 24/7 or repeating it as a mantra. In other words, it's giving the song a lot more credibility than it deserves.
    True, not every american is walking around 24/7 repeating it as a mantra. That one's called the pledge of allegiance and it's only on school days. Or the national anthem that's sung in masses at every sporting event etc.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    You were taught that America is "morally superior" to other countries?
    Yes, just as I believe most american children were. I dare say some might not be 100% honest on this one.
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    Solat13 wrote:
    Or when Canadians sing O Canada they think God should only keep Canada glorious and free?


    Yes! And it is even more poignant with the way our neighbour to the south is.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Yes, just as I believe most american children were. I dare say some might not be 100% honest on this one.

    Well, I didn't go to public school, so I don't know, but I certainly was not taught this.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?

    Well, I'm not sure that I was taught that America is morally superior. At least not explicitly.

    The real point is that I believe people can actually rise above what they are taught as children and can choose to form their own, personal conclusions.

    You don't still believe in Santa Claus do you?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    True, not every american is walking around 24/7 repeating it as a mantra. That one's called the pledge of allegiance and it's only on school days. Or the national anthem that's sung in masses at every sporting event etc.

    The pledge isn't said by too many people over the age of 12.

    The National Anthem doesn't say anything about God.....WHICH is what we were talking about.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.

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