On July 4, Put Away Your Flags
Eliot Rosewater
Posts: 2,659
Here's a great article from a true patriot, one who inspired the name of this very forum.
http://alternet.org/story/55822/
On July 4, Put Away the Flags
By Howard Zinn, Progressive Media Project. Posted July 4, 2007.
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?
These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.
National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.
Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.
That self-deception started early.
When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."
When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."
On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."
It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.
We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.
As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."
We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.
Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.
How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?
One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.
We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best- selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project
http://alternet.org/story/55822/
On July 4, Put Away the Flags
By Howard Zinn, Progressive Media Project. Posted July 4, 2007.
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?
These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.
National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.
Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.
That self-deception started early.
When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."
When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."
On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."
It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.
We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.
As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."
We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.
Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.
How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?
One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.
We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best- selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project
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don't gimme no wrote:Here's a great article from a true patriot, one who inspired the name of this very forum.
http://alternet.org/story/55822/
On July 4, Put Away the Flags
By Howard Zinn, Progressive Media Project. Posted July 4, 2007.
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?
These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.
National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.
Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.
That self-deception started early.
When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."
When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."
On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."
It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.
We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.
As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."
We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.
Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.
How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?
One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.
We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best- selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project
There are many truths here, but they have been distorted for Howard's agenda. But the biggest, most glaring problem is his central thesis that America is not morally superior or different from other nations.
I'll just throw out two specifics he metions. The wars against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Bathist dictatorship in Iraq. How is it that our governments are not morrally superior or at least "different" than these? Sure, in practice the American government has done much wrong, but the very essence of how our republic was created and set up is 180 degrees from that of the Taliban or the Bathist dictatorship. Who can argue against that, really?
We are very, very different and that is what we celebrate on July 4th, and that is why we fly our flags.0 -
I tend to agree with Zinn that nationalism is essentially a bad thing.
I just disagree with a lot of the arguments or statements that he makes to support that position.The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians and the U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians. Hard to see us as being any moral than him. Besides, your argument is shit because you're comparing us with a couple of the worst. How many peaceful nations are out there that are insanely more moral then the U.S.? Plenty to make it reasonable that the U.S. gets grouped with countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.NCfan wrote:There are many truths here, but they have been distorted for Howard's agenda. But the biggest, most glaring problem is his central thesis that America is not morally superior or different from other nations.
I'll just throw out two specifics he metions. The wars against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Bathist dictatorship in Iraq. How is it that our governments are not morrally superior or at least "different" than these? Sure, in practice the American government has done much wrong, but the very essence of how our republic was created and set up is 180 degrees from that of the Taliban or the Bathist dictatorship. Who can argue against that, really?
We are very, very different and that is what we celebrate on July 4th, and that is why we fly our flags.
Anyone who believes this country is morally superior than the rest of the world is flat out ignorant and doesn't know history.
Edit: Note to self - Morally has two Ls and only one R.0 -
I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.know1 wrote:I tend to agree with Zinn that nationalism is essentially a bad thing.
I just disagree with a lot of the arguments or statements that he makes to support that position.
Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley0 -
Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.surferdude wrote:I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.
Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.0 -
surferdude wrote:I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.
Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.
Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".
In addition, anytime anyone starts blathering on about how all humans (except the enlightened one making the claim) have been trained, brainwashed, etc., by the system, I tune out.The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
don't gimme no wrote:Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.
It's never been universally acceptable.The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?know1 wrote:Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".0 -
I thought the Iraq invasion was about oil. Now it's about religion. Please make up your mind about what it's about. All I know is that some people seem to think Saddam was the best alternative available.don't gimme no wrote:Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley0 -
don't gimme no wrote:What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?
It's wrong on a lot of levels, but primarily it's innacurate from the sense that I've never heard anyone say that God should bless ONLY America.
Who can he point to that is insisting that? Or should we just accept it as truth because he says it?The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
Forgive me if I'm wrong but nowhere does it say "that God should only bless America".don't gimme no wrote:What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley0 -
The only reason I can see for Zinn singling out some sorts of hatred rather than all hatred is that he uses it to justify his forms of hatred.know1 wrote:Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".
In addition, anytime anyone starts blathering on about how all humans (except the enlightened one making the claim) have been trained, brainwashed, etc., by the system, I tune out.
That hate is bad, mine are acceptable and understandable. You'd hate too given these same cirumstances. It's such a powerless proposition. I guess I just believe in people more than Zinn.“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley0 -
"America is morally superior" LMFAO!I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0
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He referenced singing it. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/godblessamerica.htmlknow1 wrote:It's wrong on a lot of levels, but primarily it's innacurate from the sense that I've never heard anyone say that God should bless ONLY America.
Who can he point to that is insisting that? Or should we just accept it as truth because he says it?0 -
don't gimme no wrote:He referenced singing it. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/godblessamerica.html
It never says ONLY America, which I believe is Surferdude's point.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.0 -
don't gimme no wrote:He referenced singing it. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/godblessamerica.html
And?
Does that song say anywhere that God should bless ONLY America?The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
Okay, let's be specific then. How about we start by reading the article because I may have not used the best words in my posts.know1 wrote:And?
Does that song say anywhere that God should bless ONLY America?
"On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed."
So how is he wrong again? Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed? I'll admit that my admiration for Zinn is to the point where I feel like I don't have to even question him often. But I really can't see an argument against this statement. At least not one that's rational.0 -
Well, I think that's assumed. Assuming there's a god, we must also assume he's not stupid.yosi wrote:It never says ONLY America, which I believe is Surferdude's point.0 -
don't gimme no wrote:Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed?
No, we do not.0 -
don't gimme no wrote:Okay, let's be specific then. How about we start by reading the article because I may have not used the best words in my posts.
"On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed."
So how is he wrong again? Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed? I'll admit that my admiration for Zinn is to the point where I feel like I don't have to even question him often. But I really can't see an argument against this statement. At least not one that's rational.
Because saying that God should single out America to be blessed is saying that God should only bless America (or be included in whatever few things ought to be blessed).
Which is different than just saying that God should bless America, which says nothing about what else God should bless.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.0
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