Enjoy Capitalism

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  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    because Abook cares about ppl
    alot of you are on her case about it.
    thats fucked up when that takes place.
    its pritty weak.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...really??? This seems odd since, for example, we've redistributed billions into Africa without return. Hell, we've redistributed trillions into the poor in America, often times without return.

    The funny thing about this is, if you actually believed it, you'd be describing employment. If you want to talk about money being given to the poor who in turn willingly agree to accept obligations to benefit society, then we'd be talking about reality.



    Of course. Why else would I give to charity?



    Is your problem with "the gap", or is your problem with "poverty"? Because socialism will do a great job eliminating the gap by reducing everyone to poverty.



    Whatever is theirs, otherwise "give back" wouldn't make any sense.

    What do you expect back from your charity?

    How would a more socialist system cause all this abundant wealth you speak of to disappear suddenly?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I see countries like Canada, Denmark, France who have a more socialist approach doing fine.
    I also see this capitalism not working out too well for us here at home.

    The dichotomy here is funny.

    Canada, Denmark and France are "doing fine" with "socialism", while America is "not working" with "capitalism".

    Can you elucidate the standards and facts upon which these contentions are based?
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Of course. Is this shocking?

    i am glad i am not like you.

    no offense intended.

    in return you can say the same thing to me.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What do you expect back from your charity?

    Happiness.
    How would a more socialist system cause all this abundant wealth you speak of to disappear suddenly?

    By handing it out for consumption and preventing its replacement, of course. Why do you think people in Cuba have to bring their own gauze to their surgeries? Why do you think people in Soviet Russia starved to death? Why do you think staple food shortages are now hitting Venezuela? Why do you think per-capita GDPs in socialistic nations fall or grow at much slower rates than capitalistic nations with similar geographical and economic starting points?

    Socialism damns wealth. It co-opts it without providing rewards to those who create it, and it seperates the ends of human survival and happiness from their means. It's like asking why a garden doesn't grow when you block out the sunlight and salt the earth.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    The dichotomy here is funny.

    Canada, Denmark and France are "doing fine" with "socialism", while America is "not working" with "capitalism".

    Can you elucidate the standards and facts upon which these contentions are based?


    Ah yes, the ever condescending attitude to views that you don't share. Glad I could give you a chuckle.

    I'm saying that just because a system is more socialist...that doesn't mean the country is doomed to poverty.

    In America, even the middle class is having a hard time finding good jobs even with college, they can't afford health insurance, they wait to get treatment until they can't avoid it any longer and they use the er instead of being able to afford preventative measures before it got out of control, so many jobs are being outsourced, we no longer produce our own goods, we import waaay more than we export. The rich are profiting off everyone but the country is losing ground.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Happiness.



    By handing it out for consumption and preventing its replacement, of course. Why do you think people in Cuba have to bring their own gauze to their surgeries? Why do you think people in Soviet Russia starved to death? Why do you think staple food shortages are now hitting Venezuela? Why do you think per-capita GDPs in socialistic nations fall or grow at much slower rates than capitalistic nations with similar geographical and economic starting points?

    Socialism damns wealth. It co-opts it without providing rewards to those who create it, and it seperates the ends of human survival and happiness from their means. It's like asking why a garden doesn't grow when you block out the sunlight and salt the earth.

    I don't think the only reason people produce is for self interest...I've already said as much. The reward is happiness, like you say...living in a society where people have more access to this abundant wealth. People will produce things out of kindness and yearning for a better world...not just selfishness. I know you won't see this.

    The examples you gave are examples of corruption getting in the way of socialism.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I'm saying that just because a system is more socialist...that doesn't mean the country is doomed to poverty.

    You are 100% correct. What you don't list, however, is how "more socialist" you want society to be. The reason I laughed at the dichotomy you presented is because the socialistic difference between America, Canada, France and Denmark are mostly quite small. While America's economic practices are far more capitalistic, we have incredibly pervasive systems of governmental supports and altruistic charity networks they don't have. Furthermore, the socialized systems of those nations (and our own) are all propped up by capitalistic endeavors in the first place.
    In America, even the middle class is having a hard time finding good jobs even with college, they can't afford health insurance, they wait to get treatment until they can't avoid it any longer and they use the er instead of being able to afford preventative measures before it got out of control, so many jobs are being outsourced, we no longer produce our own goods, we import waaay more than we export. The rich are profiting off everyone but the country is losing ground.

    Funny that you mention health care. Why do you think health care suddenly is so expensive and difficult to acquire here in America?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I don't think the only reason people produce is for self interest...I've already said as much.

    Saying it doesn't make it true.
    The reward is happiness, like you say...living in a society where people have more access to this abundant wealth. People will produce things out of kindness and yearning for a better world...not just selfishness. I know you won't see this.

    So my desire to be happy isn't selfish?? I don't understand that.

    If people will produce things out of kindness, why don't you make me a hat? Or better yet, why won't you just make me 1,000,000 hats so I can give them out to my friends? You're not unkind are you?
    The examples you gave are examples of corruption getting in the way of socialism.

    What's the difference???? What's your definition of "corrupt"?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    The dictators are choosing to use the money for their own self interest instead of redistributing it to the people who need it the most. The dictators are using their power gained through wealth to decide who gets the money and who doesn't.
    ok. we call that stealing.
  • onelongsong
    onelongsong Posts: 3,517
    chadwick wrote:
    Africa's problems really are not just Africa's problems.
    Fuckin mankind problems belong to mankind.
    No one country, no one race, is better or less than another.
    I wonder who went to Africa and removed MANKIND from Africa
    and brought them to a distant land filled with MANKIND!
    That distant land was taken from one MANKIND for another.
    MANKIND abuses MANKIND and all that is within or out of grasp.
    Shit like this has been going on since MANKIND.
    Fuckin Man isn't kind.
    (MAN) ISN'T(KIND).

    so in the long run; you think the africans brought to america whould have been better off in africa?
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    onelongsong wrote:
    so in the long run; you think the africans brought to america whould have been better off in africa?

    well it was abducting an fellow human-being from their homeland
    that cant have good positive energy to anything at all.
    those effects last a long time.
    its been done everywhere not just Africa.
    ppl treat each other like shit.
    its more than political bullshit, although it is a big part.
    alot of ppl simply do not give a fuck about anyone but themselves.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Saying it doesn't make it true.
    The same goes to everything said.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    So my desire to be happy isn't selfish?? I don't understand that.

    It can be. it depends on what it takes to make you happy. If it infringes on another's happiness then it can get more and more selfish depending on the degree.
    farfromglorified wrote:
    If people will produce things out of kindness, why don't you make me a hat? Or better yet, why won't you just make me 1,000,000 hats so I can give them out to my friends? You're not unkind are you?

    I didn't know you needed a hat. Are you sure you need that many hats?

    farfromglorified wrote:
    What's the difference???? What's your definition of "corrupt"?

    Where the original system is altered often for selfish interests
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    onelongsong wrote:
    so in the long run; you think the africans brought to america whould have been better off in africa?
    That's a "what-if" scenerio. But, yes, had Europeans and later Americans never gone in and raped and pillaged the continent in the first place, there's a damn good chance that Africans would be better off now.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    The same goes to everything said.

    Most definitely.
    It can be. it depends on what it takes to make you happy. If it infringes on another's happiness then it can get more and more selfish depending on the degree.

    Ok. Let's say I want to be happy, but I don't want to infringe on another's happiness. What's the word for that?
    I didn't know you needed a hat. Are you sure you need that many hats?

    Of course! I have many hatless friends. They all need those hats.
    Where the original system is altered often for selfish interests

    What were the interests behind the "original system"??? I mean, if the original system was supposed to serve people's self-interests, then how has anything been "altered"??? The only way the dictator could alter the system vis a vis interests is to turn around and give that money to another nation, instead of himself or others in his own nation.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    We all know that people behave more poorly in groups than on their own. This principal of human actions is called mob mentality. Knowing that this is basic human behavior why do people continue to want and expect governments and corporations to behave better than they themselves behave on their own?

    Why would you ever expect a group of people to be able to reverse billions of years of evolution and all of a sudden throw off the shackles of human behavior and all of a sudden behave better as a group than as individuals?

    Basic human behavior tells us that the bigger and more powerful we make government that the worst off we'll be.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Let's say I want to be happy, but I don't want to infringe on another's happiness. What's the word for that?

    Being nice, thoughtful considerate of the lives of others. Whatever word you like.

    farfromglorified wrote:
    Of course! I have many hatless friends. They all need those hats.

    Why do they need the hats?

    farfromglorified wrote:
    What were the interests behind the "original system"??? I mean, if the original system was supposed to serve people's self-interests, then how has anything been "altered"??? The only way the dictator could alter the system vis a vis interests is to turn around and give that money to another nation, instead of himself or others in his own nation.

    He left out the more proportionate distribution if it's corrupt socialism

    With capitalism, I guess these policies fit the self interest mold.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    surferdude wrote:
    We all know that people behave more poorly in groups than on their own. This principal of human actions is called mob mentality. Knowing that this is basic human behavior why do people continue to want and expect governments and corporations to behave better than they themselves behave on their own?

    Why would you ever expect a group of people to be able to reverse billions of years of evolution and all of a sudden throw off the shackles of human behavior and all of a sudden behave better as a group than as individuals?
    Oh, please don't tell me you believe in that "evolution" clap-trap. There's simply no such thing as "billions of years." ;)
    surferdude wrote:
    Basic human behavior tells us that the bigger and more powerful we make government that the worst off we'll be.
    "Basic human behavior" also claimed that representative government would never work. Yet, so far so good.


    O.K., O.K. So far, so-so. :D
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    RainDog wrote:
    O.K., O.K. So far, so-so. :D
    From Abook's point of view it seems to be a collossal failure. From my point of view it awful, but until we come up with something better it's still the best option we have. But knowing it's mob mentality downside we are stupid to let government be anything but as small as possible.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    surferdude wrote:
    We all know that people behave more poorly in groups than on their own. This principal of human actions is called mob mentality. Knowing that this is basic human behavior why do people continue to want and expect governments and corporations to behave better than they themselves behave on their own?

    Why would you ever expect a group of people to be able to reverse billions of years of evolution and all of a sudden throw off the shackles of human behavior and all of a sudden behave better as a group than as individuals?

    Basic human behavior tells us that the bigger and more powerful we make government that the worst off we'll be.

    Groups/corporations have to regulated because they don't don't behave better than people do on their own. Power/money always corrupts and it's up to us to prevent it from being able to happen.

    I believe people are evolving away from the old ways. People are coming together now not out of power lust but to do good in the world.

    History has shown us that government can be bought out from under us and no longer serve our interests when this happens. These problems can be fixed and replaced with better leadership and laws protecting the people from moves made by the power hungry. Conditioning has a lot to do with this too but that's another thread.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde

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