I Can't Wait For Government Run Health-Care!!!

Kel Varnsen · May 2009

Commy wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

See, that's why you have to ante up big time and get an island, get yourselves some isolation.

Only thing is, what happens when someone becomes corrupt on this island, and tries to profit off of his or her role there (because let's face it, we're not perfect)? Who has the authority to send them packing in a society of anarchy?

would be nice.

resources are controlled by the people, equally. so if a doctor or someone steps up and says,
"I won't provide my service unless you make me king",

the rest of us can step up and say,
"you don't eat until you provide your service".

inherent checks and balances.

If we are using the island analogy, how would you divide resources if not all resources are equal and can never be. How do you decide which person gets the best parcel of land and who has to live next to the garbage dump. How do you decide who gets to eat the best cuts of meat, or the best looking fruits and vegtables?

inmytree · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I do find it interesting that no one has said "hey, Grandpa should go buy a Private Insurance Policy" as a solution to the problem...

given her age and existing condition, an insurance policy would probably cost as much as paying for the services directly

interesting...this thread is about the evils of Gov't run health care...it's kinda weird to me that people will fight against this idea while agreeing that Private/For Profit Insurance sucks, too...in fact, in this case, it's of absolutely no help...

let's see, we can have bullshit filled overpriced for-profit insurance which costs too much and denies care or we have a gov't run, non-profit program that covers all that sometimes denies care...

I'm going for the not-so-perfect, non-profit health care system...

WaveCameCrashin · May 2009

hey evil do really think that everybody should just work for free and everything should just be handed out to everyone. this world would come to a complete stop without commerce. Do you think Contractors would just build homes for the hell of it and say hey just move on in :?

Frankly I cant believe we are even having a discussion like this.

Kel Varnsen · May 2009

Commy wrote:

and medical school costs are arbitrary. why should education cost ANYTHING? not everyone can do it. only those capable will be enrolling anyway. we could learn a a lot from Cuba. maybe that's why they are still considered a threat, they are an example on how to run a decent society.

But making education free does nothing but fill up spaces in school with people who go to school because it is cheap and they have nothing better to do. And I can say this as someone who went to University in a place where it was ridiculously cheap and there were tons of people taking ridiculously useless classes just because it was cheap and they had nothing better to do with their lives (which is odd since they were usually the ones protesting and demanding lower tuition fees). If it was free my school would have been over-run with these types of people. By making it cost money you add some difficulty so that only people who get educated are those people with the drive that are willing to make the effort (even if it means getting a job or 2) to find a way to make it happen.

jlew24asu · May 2009

inmytree wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I do find it interesting that no one has said "hey, Grandpa should go buy a Private Insurance Policy" as a solution to the problem...

given her age and existing condition, an insurance policy would probably cost as much as paying for the services directly

interesting...this thread is about the evils of Gov't run health care...it's kinda weird to me that people will fight against this idea while agreeing that Private/For Profit Insurance sucks, too...in fact, in this case, it's of absolutely no help.

let's see, we can have bullshit filled overpriced for-profit insurance which costs too much and denies care or we have a gov't run, non-profit program that covers all that sometimes denies care...

I'm going for the not-so-perfect, non-profit health care system...

I was just taking a guess. I dont know for sure. but it only makes sense...insurance is more expensive the older you get, and especially so with existing conditions.

you forgot to mention the loss of quality care in your non profit health care system. you comfortable with that too?

Commy · May 2009

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Commy wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

See, that's why you have to ante up big time and get an island, get yourselves some isolation.

Only thing is, what happens when someone becomes corrupt on this island, and tries to profit off of his or her role there (because let's face it, we're not perfect)? Who has the authority to send them packing in a society of anarchy?

would be nice.

resources are controlled by the people, equally. so if a doctor or someone steps up and says,
"I won't provide my service unless you make me king",

the rest of us can step up and say,
"you don't eat until you provide your service".

inherent checks and balances.

If we are using the island analogy, how would you divide resources if not all resources are equal and can never be. How do you decide which person gets the best parcel of land and who has to live next to the garbage dump. How do you decide who gets to eat the best cuts of meat, or the best looking fruits and vegtables?

on the island, its a natural decision. as are most in the society. say a guy kills 2 deer or something, or goes above and beyond what was expected of his usual laboror. maybe give him the tenderloin cut or best veggies that night. its a spontaneous decision, there's nothing written or set in stone, its just, whoever performed the best that day should get recognized. an idea. I don't know its a good question.

maybe another thread, probably shouldn't derail this one.

decides2dream · May 2009

inmytree wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I do find it interesting that no one has said "hey, Grandpa should go buy a Private Insurance Policy" as a solution to the problem...

given her age and existing condition, an insurance policy would probably cost as much as paying for the services directly

interesting...this thread is about the evils of Gov't run health care...it's kinda weird to me that people will fight against this idea while agreeing that Private/For Profit Insurance sucks, too...in fact, in this case, it's of absolutely no help...

let's see, we can have bullshit filled overpriced for-profit insurance which costs too much and denies care or we have a gov't run, non-profit program that covers all that sometimes denies care...

I'm going for the not-so-perfect, non-profit health care system...

exactly......
there is *no* perfect system, but we sure could improve a LOT.....firslty by having health care for ALL.

Evil Merlin Part Deux · May 2009

prfctlefts wrote:

hey evil do really think that everybody should just work for free and everything should just be handed out to everyone. this world would come to a complete stop without commerce. Do you think Contractors would just build homes for the hell of it and say hey just move on in :? Frankly I cant believe we are even having a discussion like this.

You're completely looking past the point. It's about money not being the ignition source anymore. It's sad to see how you(in general, not personally) accept a greed driven world.

The fact that you believe that if all money disappeared all of a sudden the world comes to a complete stop is a bit ignorant don't you think? Do we have zero care within us? And zero survival skills.

Check it out...if money didn't exist, all of a sudden to all structures we've learned to build, and all reasearch that's ever been completed magically disappear?

Nope.

If we can build it, why not build it?

Why do you need a salary if you're already guaranteed your health, food and a home? What can you provide? Well you figure that out and you provide it and in return you get what everyone else has provided. When hardships come, you work together as a whole to get out of them with minimum damage to your community rather than the rich just buy their way out and fuck the rest.

Just as much as you want people to get out of a dream world, if you want solutions, you're going to have to step into a dream world. It's time to work together, unlike our government. If we keep competing and holding back ideas and wanting the other to fail, then we all fail. No group will ever win.

In the end it's just sad that we have a country filled with citizens that would deny people help based on their own grudges. And this spreads over many more topics than just this one. It's a disease. It's time for everyone to open up. That's all.

jlew24asu · May 2009

decides2dream wrote:

exactly......
there is *no* perfect system, but we sure could improve a LOT.....firslty by having health care for ALL.

having "free" healthcare for all would make things worse, not better. why? we cant afford it and loss of quality of care.

Commy · May 2009

anarchist societies have existed in the past. modern anarchist systems.

Spain pre-Franco was one. They had no money, but people still showed up to work, and ran their society very well. And yes, contractors just showed up to work and built houses for those that needed them, and in turn they got a share of the crop the farmers were growing, and on down the line. it was very efficient, no red tape, not until it was taken over by force.

jlew24asu · May 2009

Evil Merlin Part Deux wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

hey evil do really think that everybody should just work for free and everything should just be handed out to everyone. this world would come to a complete stop without commerce. Do you think Contractors would just build homes for the hell of it and say hey just move on in :? Frankly I cant believe we are even having a discussion like this.

You're completely looking past the point. It's about money not being the ignition source anymore. It's sad to see how you(in general, not personally) accept a greed driven world.

The fact that you believe that if all money disappeared all of a sudden the world comes to a complete stop is a bit ignorant don't you think? Do we have zero care within us? And zero survival skills.

Check it out...if money didn't exist, all of a sudden to all structures we've learned to build, and all reasearch that's ever been completed magically disappear?

Nope.

If we can build it, why not build it?

Why do you need a salary if you're already guaranteed your health, food and a home? What can you provide? Well you figure that out and you provide it and in return you get what everyone else has provided. When hardships come, you work together as a whole to get out of them with minimum damage to your community rather than the rich just buy their way out and fuck the rest.

Just as much as you want people to get out of a dream world, if you want solutions, you're going to have to step into a dream world. It's time to work together, unlike our government. If we keep competing and holding back ideas and wanting the other to fail, then we all fail. No group will ever win.

In the end it's just sad that we have a country filled with citizens that would deny people help based on their own grudges. And this spreads over many more topics than just this one. It's a disease. It's time for everyone to open up. That's all.

money is an excellent motivator. and you people just don't understand......no one is going to work for free in your little dream land.

can we please talk about realistic solutions?? anyone? anyone?

decides2dream · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

exactly......
there is *no* perfect system, but we sure could improve a LOT.....firslty by having health care for ALL.

having "free" healthcare for all would make things worse, not better. why? we cant afford it and loss of quality of care.

i disagree, obviously. i say we can't afford NOT to offer basic healthcare services to all. as to affording it, i think we absolutely can. if other countries can manage it, so can we.....and truly, with what we spend right NOW....i think illiminating private insurance BS redtape, we'd save a bundle.....i think it IS totally DOABLE, it just needs to be set in motion. anyhoo...fuck it....if we can get in massive debt to go to war, i am all for getting into debt to assist lives, to improve national health and access to care. we're smart, we CAN figure it out. you think the entirety of the rest of the world do not have quality of care? truly? show that initiative and that can-do american spirit........;) it CAN be done.

btw - who said *free*.........?
sure it may well be 'free' for some, and it is already for a many in any case. the vast majority, we all get a hefty sum taken from our pay for private health insurance...well then...take that chunk and it put it towards universal healthcare, cut out a lot of the BS....and yea......there's a start.

inmytree · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

I was just taking a guess. I dont know for sure. but it only makes sense...insurance is more expensive the older you get, and especially so with existing conditions.

you forgot to mention the loss of quality care in your non profit health care system. you comfortable with that too?

Am I comfortable with the perceived notion of some sort of loss of quality care? With due respect, Jlew...you don't know this will be the case...no one does...

I do know this...I'm comfortable with my police protection, with the city fire fighters, with my local social services. I know bushy's part D Medicaid costs an extra 15 billion to have private insurance companies do the same work as gov't employees who were doing the same thing...

call me kooky, but I'll take my chances on a gov't run system....

Kel Varnsen · May 2009

Commy wrote:

If we are using the island analogy, how would you divide resources if not all resources are equal and can never be. How do you decide which person gets the best parcel of land and who has to live next to the garbage dump. How do you decide who gets to eat the best cuts of meat, or the best looking fruits and vegtables?

on the island, its a natural decision. as are most in the society. say a guy kills 2 deer or something, or goes above and beyond what was expected of his usual laboror. maybe give him the tenderloin cut or best veggies that night. its a spontaneous decision, there's nothing written or set in stone, its just, whoever performed the best that day should get recognized. an idea. I don't know its a good question.

maybe another thread, probably shouldn't derail this one.[/quote]

But if there is say a limited value of good meat or good veggies or property, how do you decide that what the hunter or the farmer does is worth more than say what the barber or the mechanic does or the doctor does? And what is stopping one of those guys from offering the farmer or the hunter preferential treatment, or just better service, at their shops in exchange for some of that good meat. And right there you have just made meat a basic currency in your so called "money free society".

Commy · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

money is an excellent motivator. and you people just don't understand......no one is going to work for free in your little dream land.

can we please talk about realistic solutions?? anyone? anyone?

what if you already had all the thing money provided?

your flat screen, your house, your car, your food, your clothes.

what would be the point of money?>

Evil Merlin Part Deux · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

Evil Merlin Part Deux wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

hey evil do really think that everybody should just work for free and everything should just be handed out to everyone. this world would come to a complete stop without commerce. Do you think Contractors would just build homes for the hell of it and say hey just move on in :? Frankly I cant believe we are even having a discussion like this.

You're completely looking past the point. It's about money not being the ignition source anymore. It's sad to see how you(in general, not personally) accept a greed driven world.

The fact that you believe that if all money disappeared all of a sudden the world comes to a complete stop is a bit ignorant don't you think? Do we have zero care within us? And zero survival skills.

Check it out...if money didn't exist, all of a sudden to all structures we've learned to build, and all reasearch that's ever been completed magically disappear?

Nope.

If we can build it, why not build it?

Why do you need a salary if you're already guaranteed your health, food and a home? What can you provide? Well you figure that out and you provide it and in return you get what everyone else has provided. When hardships come, you work together as a whole to get out of them with minimum damage to your community rather than the rich just buy their way out and fuck the rest.

Just as much as you want people to get out of a dream world, if you want solutions, you're going to have to step into a dream world. It's time to work together, unlike our government. If we keep competing and holding back ideas and wanting the other to fail, then we all fail. No group will ever win.

In the end it's just sad that we have a country filled with citizens that would deny people help based on their own grudges. And this spreads over many more topics than just this one. It's a disease. It's time for everyone to open up. That's all.

money is an excellent motivator. and you people just don't understand......no one is going to work for free in your little dream land.

can we please talk about realistic solutions?? anyone? anyone?

So if all money was just suddenly burned up, then all structures we've already built would just crumble, and we could no longer build? Basically, we've become skill retarded instantaneously? Until of course...more money was printed? :P

VINNY GOOMBA · May 2009

inmytree wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I do find it interesting that no one has said "hey, Grandpa should go buy a Private Insurance Policy" as a solution to the problem...

given her age and existing condition, an insurance policy would probably cost as much as paying for the services directly

interesting...this thread is about the evils of Gov't run health care...it's kinda weird to me that people will fight against this idea while agreeing that Private/For Profit Insurance sucks, too...in fact, in this case, it's of absolutely no help...

There is little difference between the two in my eyes, for the very reason that the insurance companies are in bed with the government. Who pushed to make any type of insurance law? Insurance companies. Who signed it into law? Politicians (who are either morons, or jerk-offs on the take). Who pushed for the rise of HMOs? Insurance companies. Now, prices have inflated astronomically thanks to their involvement to the point where people are begging for the government to actually step in and do something-- what they want is some form of price control here. With price controls may come shortages, rationing, wait-lists, etc... A government-run system is a last resort to a problem that the government let happen years ago by allowing insurance companies to get their dirty hands into every business imaginable. So do you look to the grand authority that is our government to sort it all out? I wish we could, but I don't think they can pull it off. Not till they stop spending like crackheads anyway.

jlew24asu · May 2009

inmytree wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

I was just taking a guess. I dont know for sure. but it only makes sense...insurance is more expensive the older you get, and especially so with existing conditions.

you forgot to mention the loss of quality care in your non profit health care system. you comfortable with that too?

Am I comfortable with the perceived notion of some sort of loss of quality care? With due respect, Jlew...you don't this will be the case...no one does...

of course I do. its basic supply and demand laws.

inmytree wrote:

I do know this...I'm comfortable with my police protection, with the city fire fighters, with my local social services. I know bushy's part D Medicaid costs an extra 15 billion to have private insurance companies do the same work as gov't employees who were doing the same thing...

call me kooky, but I'll take my chances on a gov't run system....

ok kooky. you take your crap run government hospital, long lines, and bottom of the barrel doctors.... and I'll take my high quality care at a premium. then I guess we'll both be happy.

jlew24asu · May 2009

Evil Merlin Part Deux wrote:

So if all money was just suddenly burned up, then all structures we've already built would just crumble, and we could no longer build? Basically, we've become skill retarded instantaneously? Until of course...more money was printed? :P

jlew24asu wrote:

can we please talk about realistic solutions?? anyone? anyone?

Evil Merlin Part Deux · May 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

Evil Merlin Part Deux wrote:

So if all money was just suddenly burned up, then all structures we've already built would just crumble, and we could no longer build? Basically, we've become skill retarded instantaneously? Until of course...more money was printed? :P

jlew24asu wrote:

can we please talk about realistic solutions?? anyone? anyone?

And you've offered what? Why not try and build on something...anything?

Or think of a starting point on your own that we can all build on?

I Can't Wait For Government Run Health-Care!!!

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