Question(s) - for you married folk

madtowndave

decides2dream wrote:

madtowndave wrote:

Once again, your assumption is positively correlated to statistics.

well sure....i admit, it's an educated assumption.
toldya this stuff fascinates me, so i have and DO read a lot on the topic. human behavior fascinates me in general, but i am especially interested in gender dynamics and relationships. i think feminism was the first thing to get 'blamed' for the demise of marriage and the diminshment of family....... :roll: obviously, equality does play it's part...but it's just a part of the bigger picture, and there is sooo much more to it than that. nowadays homosexuals get to be 'blamed' for wanting to diminish the sanctity of marriage :roll: :roll: :roll: ...so much 'blame'.....yet really, pointless.

I like this discussion. I have read an argument that posits that heterosexuals opened the door for gay marriage. (which I like) Cohabitation and children born outside of marriage weakened the marriage structure enough for it to be opened to homosexuals.

I don't think feminism was the first to get blamed, it was industrialization. (which is not a valid argument) I don't think it was industrialization, but factors loosely related to industrialization) to the time when parents controlled the employment of their children. Once parents no longer controlled the jobs, kids were able to become geographically mobile and were not as dependent on the family.

decides2dream

madtowndave wrote:

It is definitely a CHANGING institution

GREAT point!
hell, the origins of "marriage" were NOTHING like they are today! what marriage was 'supposed' to be.....was a legal contract first and foremost, an economic arrangement between families....uniting people for children, etc, etc. there was no "love" built into that equation, tho i am sure it developed, for some, over time. even the beginning sof marriage witin religions, was about being bound together with god....still not about love as it's main purpose. i think the CHOICE involved in marriage today makes it actually the BEST representation/evolution of marriage, yet. sure, it does lead to more marriage 'failure' as in divorce....but i think too it more than likely leaves the marriages that remain at a higher 'success' level of happiness/contentment in their relationship and choice. divorce has risen b/c choice has risen, and b/c we want and expect a LOT more of a marital partner outside of offspring and economic dependence on each other. personallly, i see that as a good transition, overall.

oneforeachday

i have similar thought to Drowned Out but specifically on the "reason" not on the wedding!

Before I go forward with my opinion, here's my background. Married at 23 (wife was 21), 2 kids (6 and 3 yrs old)... married for 7 yrs. Wife cheated just after the 7 yr anniversary and left about 6 months later. never saw it coming. Of course, i also found out that she lied to me about my son (he was a 'surprise', but i found out 5 yrs after he was born that she had gone off the pill and not told me). So clearly, there were underlying issues that may have caused me to end up divorced (that wasn't the only thing she lied about). some owned by me, some not. I've gone to therapy to sort out the complete dismantling of my life (I suggest HEAVY doses of Pearl Jam btw), and one of the therapists told me "there's only 2 mistakes that lead to divorce... a mistake in the marriage (meaning during the marriage) and a mistake in marrying (meaning you married the wrong person)". then he told me "you got a bad egg" (meaning i married the wrong person).

With that, I'm amazingly not completely anti-marriage (though it will be tough for me to do it again), but I've started seriously questioning the reasons why people get married. One thing I can tell you is, if you care at all about others and not just yourself (it seems you do for sure), don't bring kids into the picture. No kids (mine included) deserve what happens during divorce. Granted, not all marriage ends the way mine did (badly) and not all divorce processes are ugly (i hope). The worst thing that's ever happened to me emotionally (worse than the cheating, worse than the divorce itself) was the day my 6 yr old son said for the first time "why can't you an mommy just live together again" (he's said it 100 times since then, but it's getting less frequent now). It's not even worth going into how that makes me feel.

So, my question is "why". Why do you want to get married? if you can't answer that question quickly and easily, AND if you answer it in a way that doesn't have a cause:effect relationship, for example: because i love her and want to spend forever with her (that doesn't have cause:effect in any way... you can easily love her and spend forever with her without getting married). Getting married (either religiously via a church or civil via a justice of the peace) "because you want to reap the tax benefits" or "because my religion says I can't have sex without being married" have cause:effect relationships.

You can wear the rings. She (or you I suppose) can change your last name. You can live together. You can have kids together. You can share bank accounts. You can do EVERYTHING the SAME without being married except the VERY FEW things that have cause:effect with marriage. Investigate what those are, and see if marriage is for you. I personally think that people get married because there's some sort of feeling that "that's what people (in love) do".

But clearly my beef (if there is one) isn't with marriage. I happily gave up 50% of our assets. it's just money. my issue was with the kids. The problem with the "don't bring them into the picture" is... you just never know. I'm 100% sure that when I got married, I loved my wife and wanted to spend forever with her (funny, took me a long time to stop feeling that way after she left). They don't call it the 7 year itch for nothing. Married, just living together, whatever, wait a few yrs for kids, IMHO.

I asked myself the question before I got married "but what if...". My what if came true. Doesn't mean yours will.

you seem like a good kid. I wish you the best of luck no matter what you decide. If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.

Horos

Just don't rush it for any reason. I was together with my wife for 14 years before we decided to get married.

Another reason I would say divorce is on the rise and been for years is that there is less of a stigma attached to it than there used to be.

madtowndave

Sorry to the guy who started this thread. I think we kinda went way off topic from what he wanted.

The shift from necessity to choice has definitely been for the better. I think one of the current desires within marriage is to develop and follow egalitarian gender roles. While this has improved, it is still not where it needs to be in society at large.

Yes, the decreased stigma of divorce also contributed to its rise.

Brain of J.Lo

Go with your gut. When it's right, you just know.

decides2dream

great post all around, and so sorry for all you suffered through....just terrible, whether, married or living together. just wanted to highlight this:

oneforeachday wrote:

If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.

EXCELLENT point.



and even if that communication does break down, and it can and does happen....as long as one of you is willing to pick it back up again, and both of you are commited to getting back on track, where you want to be.....as someone we all admire sings: it's all surmountable.

Get_Right

decides2dream wrote:

Get_Right wrote:

21 is young dude
have you had a threesome yet?

if not delay marriage.
kidding


sort of

have you?
:P



you can't have a threesome after marriage?
i didn't recite that in my marriage vows....;)

of course you can
but its more of a general question to gauge the overall life experience of the OP
and I NEVER kiss and tell

bigeye21

My wife and I got married at the ages of 22 and 23 and are still going strong almost 11 years later. We dated off and on 6 years before that and met in high school. It's atypical but that's what worked for us. You can take everyones' sage advice but at the end of the day do what's right for y'all and don't worry about being judged. Having said all that, it's nothing to rush into. The biggest adjustment for us was learning to live together. We both had had our own places before and now suddenly that other person is ALWAYS around! :P We had to learn to respect each others space. And while we do almost everything together, we also realize it's a healthy thing to do stuff independently sometimes. And while it's not very romantic to say, make sure you really like this person because there are days you're not going to feel "in love". My wife is, first and foremost, my best friend. We really enjoy each others company and like hanging out together. Also as mentioned before, communication is key. You have to be able to talk and be totally honest with each other. And I guess the last thing I can say is laugh. I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.

So that's my experience and advice. That's what's worked for us so far. Take from it what you will.

It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!

oneforeachday

bigeye21 wrote:

I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.

awesome.

bigeye21 wrote:

It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!

very nicely said.

oneforeachday

decides2dream wrote:

great post all around, and so sorry for all you suffered through....just terrible, whether, married or living together. just wanted to highlight this:

oneforeachday wrote:

If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.

EXCELLENT point.

and even if that communication does break down, and it can and does happen....as long as one of you is willing to pick it back up again, and both of you are commited to getting back on track, where you want to be.....as someone we all admire sings: it's all surmountable.

D2D. Thanks. I figure I had 2 choices coming out of it all: curl up in to a ball and waste away or learn something and come out for the better. I'm a much better person, and a WAY better dad today than I was just 2 years ago (IMHO).

but back to the OP. the purpose of my story was not "hey look at me, my life sucked, marriage sucks". Shitty stuff can happen to anyone, doesn't mean it's going to. I hoped the summary about communication, and the anecdotes about lying etc. make the case for "be careful". One thing I forgot to mention is that you have to know yourself and love yourself before you can love someone else.

I think too many people aren't really sure what "love" is (myself included) and sometimes can get confused by certain things (not just the obvious things like sex, and we like the same music, and like to do things for each other etc.). for that reason alone I'd suggest waiting until you have a deeper appreciation and understanding of those things.

redrock

dcfaithful wrote:

.should I be worried about what others think because of my age?.

You should never be worried about what others think....

Personally, I don't think it's a question of age (the number) but rather where you are in your life. I'll give you an example of what I mean...

My very best friend had a boyfriend a few years younger than her. At the time they got together, he was 18 (a mature 18 year old). He was a student and she worked (with a good salary). They were very happy, had a little girl and all was hunky dory until.....

he graduated from university (a few years later) and he had to go out 'in the real world'. That changed him a hell of a lot.. work, responsibilities, etc., no longer the 'student' type of life. Though things had not changed at all at home, he had difficulties adjusting to this 'adult' life. I am sure if he had been in full time work at the beginning of the relationship, the problem would not have been there (or if she had been a student and they had started their working life at the same time). Needless to say the relationship did not last much longer (though they tried).

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say..... nothing to do with age per se but with where you are at.

I wish you and your lady all the best....

decides2dream

Get_Right wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

Get_Right wrote:

21 is young dude
have you had a threesome yet?

if not delay marriage.
kidding


sort of

have you?
:P



you can't have a threesome after marriage?
i didn't recite that in my marriage vows....;)

of course you can
but its more of a general question to gauge the overall life experience of the OP
and I NEVER kiss and tell

oh i got that.......just saying, amazingly ....there are people who can happily go to their grave without ever having a threesome. really. or so i've heard...:P

in all seriousness, 'life experience' is a great and important thing, but what that constitutes, and what one deems important in that arena....varies greatly from person to person, couple to couple.....and even there, age isn't necessarily a good indicator. i know 22 year olds who i think are really 'living'...do and experience so much....and i know people at 42 who imo, have barely lived....and yet both are quite content. it's like those who marry their one and only, their HS sweetheart, and stay together for life. i don't think i could do that, and yet i know of 2 couples who thus far have.....and 1 of them is truly amazingly happy, and the other...i just don't think are happy people, period. some people have smaller expectations and desires...and utterly content and happy......and sure, others have bigger, bolder desires....... so even with not a lot of 'life experience' one could, theoretically, know what they want and go for it at a young age.

bigeye21 wrote:

My wife and I got married at the ages of 22 and 23 and are still going strong almost 11 years later. We dated off and on 6 years before that and met in high school. It's atypical but that's what worked for us. You can take everyones' sage advice but at the end of the day do what's right for y'all and don't worry about being judged. Having said all that, it's nothing to rush into. The biggest adjustment for us was learning to live together. We both had had our own places before and now suddenly that other person is ALWAYS around! We had to learn to respect each others space. And while we do almost everything together, we also realize it's a healthy thing to do stuff independently sometimes. And while it's not very romantic to say, make sure you really like this person because there are days you're not going to feel "in love". My wife is, first and foremost, my best friend. We really enjoy each others company and like hanging out together. Also as mentioned before, communication is key. You have to be able to talk and be totally honest with each other. And I guess the last thing I can say is laugh. I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.

So that's my experience and advice. That's what's worked for us so far. Take from it what you will.

It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!

what a beautiful post! honestly, i am quite amazed at just how many on this board married young - myself included - and are still happily together. i just didn't think too many married that young anymore, and/or if they did....guess i was buying into all the ideas of divorce being so prevalent. obviously, many have divorced....but it's just so cool to read so many happy, young marriage experiences. hope it keeps going!

iluvcats

I am looking at our family tree and there is no wedding date for when my great Aunt, 74 married her husband, who is about 80 now. She had their first son in 1954 and they are still married. My mom and I were around them in 2007. He took her hand, smiled and started playing with her fingers and the look on his face as he looked her in the eyes was priceless. Later that night, my mom said, "did you see the look ("come hither") in his eyes?" That's amazing. They live in a rural area, maybe the fresh air helps the marriage? My mom told me my Aunt was 15 when he began "courting" her. I think she can be a little bitchy sometimes like her sister was (my grandma.) It runs in the family. (soulsinging, do you suppose that's why he likes her so much?)

GraySaturday

I just wanted to jump in and say two things:

One.. age is a number sometimes, and that's all it is. You know yourself better then anyone. Your 21 might be someone else's 30. Everyone is different. I turned 23, 2 weeks before I got married. People gave me shit for it. It's not for everyone, but to each his own. I'm very happy 2.5 years later, as is my husband. Some people need to wait (for themselves) till they are much older to get married. I don't think there is a magic number that works for everyone.

two.. when you've lived together for a while and endured real life together, nothing changes when you get married. I lived with my husband for over a year and 1/2 and graduated college, moved across the country, dealt with family crisis and such.. getting married was great, but changed zero about my living situation. It was kinda like, well here we are after the wedding.. back to normal life!

Good luck though!

Drowned Out

decides2dream wrote:

drowned out....what is 'interesting' about some stats is that people who live together before marriage are actually MORE likely to divorce than those who don't live together first. so it does say something about that 'piece of paper'.....tho all interpretations of just what it says will vary greatly.


btw - get married in NY......you get 99.5% of your gifts in cash.

seriously tho, for me.....the idea that i willing chose, and my husband willing chose, to legally bind ourselves together, to make a formal commitment....a spiritual(not the same as religious, tho for some it may be) commitment......that's MY kind of commitment. others don't need or want it....but i do.....it's all good......

ok, you can't have it both ways (actually, sounds like maybe YOU can :P )....you can't claim it's a personal thing; different for everyone, then throw stats at me

decides2dream wrote:

so you married 'despite your beliefs' that it is meaningless? perhaps not the best idea. hahaha..

never saw THAT comment comin! :roll: :P
Nah, I don’t regret it or anything…she knew how I felt about marriage, her mistake not mine! ...getting married was HER fuck up .... SHE always wanted the big, fairytale wedding…I didn’t think that because I had an unconventional view on it, she should be denied that. I told her this straight up....I didn’t need the piece of paper OR the ceremony, but that's how she wanted it…and since I didn't care about the institution of marriage (only the commitment), I thought....well...this is how she wants to commit, so why would I NOT want to marry her if I DO want to spend my life with her? It’s not like I’m AGAINST marriage…I just think it's (increasingly) unnecessary.
Now, if we're talking about the failure to live out our commitment? the blame goes 50/50 for sure....well...maybe 55/45...or 60/40 lol.... I'll take partial blame for the divorce, but the marriage is all her fault

It's a piece of paper and all of you sickening, happily married people will never convince me otherwise! :P

(your right, this could go on forever....think we've already ran in this circle inumerable times over the years )

_

Drowned Out wrote:

I'll take partial blame for the divorce, but the marriage is all her fault

Marriage is the #1 cause of divorce, you know.

_

bigeye21 wrote:

I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.

And they say romance is dead!

Given to...

Its definetly a gut thing. My wife and I are high school sweethearts. Next month we will celebrate our 19th anniversary. We have actually been together 22.

About age; you know that ignorant ass that just pisses everyone off and he is like in his 30's? Some asses never mature. 21 year olds were ancient in Vietnam... Life defines, not age.

About kids; dont wait too long. You want to experience and grow with your wife AND your children. Cant even imagine being the old fart raising the kids and trying to relate. Much funner being not too far removed and able to play/coach them in sports and in life.

ajedigecko

do not get married......................having a consistant person to engage with is over-rated, punching your clown and never knowing who your partner has been with, adds suspense in the sack.