Are you religious or very traditional?
If not....why bother?
I stated this last week to a mother of a bride-to-be...she rolled her eyes at me and said something about 'it's getting up in front of everyone you know and making a commitment to each other'.
I didn't get into it with her...
but...
what's the fucking point of that?
A shit ton of free gifts of basic necessities for your home, an iron clad excuse to get vacation time for a honeymoon, and lower taxes?
.....see? milking your friends n family, and perks at work are not reasons to get married.
Besides...unless you're bein cheap or have a bride with a rich, traditional family...your weddign costs should pretty much offset the gifts n cash...which just means in the end, you're letting other people pick out all the shit for your house, but still payin for it (unless you sign up to a registry, which just sucks everyone into buying crap from one place and missing out on deals).
marriage is exactly what YOU think it is. if you think it's just a piece of paper, well then, it IS just a piece of paper. if you think it is so moch more...well then, it is. you get the idea. to me marriage is the highest form of commitment 2 people can make to each other. doesn't matter if you have a 'wedding'....the legal perks don't matter there either, tho they are nice.....to me, and to many others....it's about the commitment. can you commit to another for life without marriage? of course. for some of us....marriage makes that commitment *more*.......
agree, disagree...c'est la vie........so many differing perspectives on it. i take no issue with those who say marriage is not for them, more power to ya....it in no way diminishes my personal views of marriage, nor my own marriage...
drowned out....what is 'interesting' about some stats is that people who live together before marriage are actually MORE likely to divorce than those who don't live together first. so it does say something about that 'piece of paper'.....tho all interpretations of just what it says will vary greatly.
btw - get married in NY......you get 99.5% of your gifts in cash.
seriously tho, for me.....the idea that i willing chose, and my husband willing chose, to legally bind ourselves together, to make a formal commitment....a spiritual(not the same as religious, tho for some it may be) commitment......that's MY kind of commitment. others don't need or want it....but i do.....it's all good......
marriage is exactly what YOU think it is. if you think it's just a piece of paper, well then, it IS just a piece of paper. if you think it is so moch more...well then, it is. you get the idea. to me marriage is the highest form of commitment 2 people can make to each other. doesn't matter if you have a 'wedding'....the legal perks don't matter there either, tho they are nice.....to me, and to many others....it's about the commitment. can you commit to another for life without marriage? of course. for some of us....marriage makes that commitment *more*.......agree, disagree...c'est la vie........so many differing perspectives on it. i take no issue with those who say marriage is not for them, more power to ya....it in no way diminishes my personal views of marriage, nor my own marriage...
I can live with that
The bold is pretty much the argument that got me sucked into it, despite my beliefs, in the first place It means little to me either way, so I had no big qualms about getting married haha
I am moving next week, so I already packed all of the books and articles that would give the exact statistics, but I can roughly tell you that young marriage increases the likelihood of divorce, and living together also increases the likelihood of divorce. Of course education, socio-economic status, etc also play a role.
interesting...
i already knew the stat about the living together having a higher incidence of divorce, but not the age correlation. i guess thinking about it it shouldn't be too surprising....being younger more apt to make rash decisions, just about anything - let alone marriage.....and being young IS a time of flux. i think in time tho, that may change. as you mention, the first-time marital age IS rising, for both genders....for all the reasons you state. there is probably more pressure placed on those married young rather than older nowadays, and that is a big societal shift. with the pressure of 'having' to marry young now gone, and really quite the opposite...i would hope those stats would then change since those who may choose a young marriage will do so b/c they truly want it and the commitment...tho i guess those changing pressures will always be there. i actually found the early 30s a bit more difficult on our marriage than our 20s.....and we actually did all the big changes, finishing grad school, buying a home, etc...in our 20s. eh well....one can still always make rash decisions :P ...and sure, while maturity is NOT necessarily correlated with age, in general, one does usually become more mature with age...or you'd hope anyway. interesting, interesting........bottomline tho, no matter the stats, everyone creats their own stats....i still love the study and discussion of em tho.....
Yeah, if we were to live our life by stats only, it would be no fun. Plus, different studies can produce different results. But the study of trends in marriage and the family is truly fascinating. You are exactly right when you mention 'having' to marry. People now have a choice, so the marry for romantic ideas instead of economic cooperation.
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marriage is exactly what YOU think it is. if you think it's just a piece of paper, well then, it IS just a piece of paper. if you think it is so moch more...well then, it is. you get the idea. to me marriage is the highest form of commitment 2 people can make to each other. doesn't matter if you have a 'wedding'....the legal perks don't matter there either, tho they are nice.....to me, and to many others....it's about the commitment. can you commit to another for life without marriage? of course. for some of us....marriage makes that commitment *more*.......agree, disagree...c'est la vie........so many differing perspectives on it. i take no issue with those who say marriage is not for them, more power to ya....it in no way diminishes my personal views of marriage, nor my own marriage...
I can live with that
The bold is pretty much the argument that got me sucked into it, despite my beliefs, in the first place It means little to me either way, so I had no big qualms about getting married haha
so you married 'despite your beliefs' that it is meaningless? perhaps not the best idea. hahaha.
while i think my husband could've easily chosen to live with me for life and not 'needed' marriage......he did ask me, no pressures - we even got married in a church! :shock: ....and he also is glad we both chose marriage, for ALL the reasons possible. i know when people debate the topic, the idea that it's just a piece of paper, or how can it be 'more' etc......goes on and on, and all i can say is....it just is, for some of us, anyway....:P i respect others not believing in that choice, it just happens to be my personal choice.
Yeah, if we were to live our life by stats only, it would be no fun. Plus, different studies can produce different results. But the study of trends in marriage and the family is truly fascinating. You are exactly right when you mention 'having' to marry. People now have a choice, so the marry for romantic ideas instead of economic cooperation.
absolutely.
i also believe that a good portion of the reason for the increase in divorce IS the fact that marriage is truly a CHOICE nowadays, and NOT an absolute 'necessity' as it once was.
Once again, your assumption is positively correlated to statistics.
well sure....i admit, it's an educated assumption.
toldya this stuff fascinates me, so i have and DO read a lot on the topic. human behavior fascinates me in general, but i am especially interested in gender dynamics and relationships. i think feminism was the first thing to get 'blamed' for the demise of marriage and the diminshment of family....... :roll: obviously, equality does play it's part...but it's just a part of the bigger picture, and there is sooo much more to it than that. nowadays homosexuals get to be 'blamed' for wanting to diminish the sanctity of marriage :roll: :roll: :roll: ...so much 'blame'.....yet really, pointless.
Are you religious or very traditional?
If not....why bother?
I stated this last week to a mother of a bride-to-be...she rolled her eyes at me and said something about 'it's getting up in front of everyone you know and making a commitment to each other'.
I didn't get into it with her...
but...
what's the fucking point of that? it all seems stale and self-congratulatory....ritual and ceremony for people who like fairy tales....
yes, I'm divorced ...but it's always been my opinion. You don't HAVE to announce your commitment to the world unless you truely BELIEVE it's necessary to do so...why so many people WANT to is beyond me.
You're talkin about a wedding not a marriage. You don't have to go through all the hoopla. You can elope or just go the the courthouse.
If you're committed to someone and you're gonna be for life, and both parties are mature enough to handle it, you'd be a fool to not get married. You get all kinds of breaks just for being married. None worth living a miserable life though, of course, but there are perks to marriage as opposed to just committing to each other.
Ya, you’re right…weddings are my main beef, but….
The ‘perks’ you speak of are dependant upon where you live…I’m pretty sure that around here, once you’re common-law, all marriage tax breaks etc can be applied….and if not, they should be…then the last vestiges of a dying institution can fade into the sunset with the sentiment it implies. Short of religion or adherence to tradition as reasons for marriage, the best reason you could come up with in response to my post was ‘but you get tax breaks’….? Not what it’s supposed to be about….the things that it IS supposed to be about have nothing to do with ‘marriage’ per se…
People always think I’m being cynical about this, but I don’t see it as cynical to call marriage a piece of paper…because it is. Committing in front of your friends, signing your life away…none of it means anything without follow-thru…in fact, it makes it more of a socially damaging hassle if things don’t work out or one party changes their mind…so to me, it’s pointless. Doesn’t make me any less commitment-worthy (commitable? )
Just for the sake of argument, because you see that I tend to agree with many statements you make.... First, marriage is not a dying institution. It is definitely a CHANGING institution, but it is not dying. The U.S. still has one of the highest marriage rates in the world.
Second, (please note I AM NOT RELIGIOUS) even though the secularization theory has for years stated that religion is disappearing, it is not. We are seeing an increase in the amount of people who choose no religious preference on surveys, but people still continue to believe in religious phenomena or in a god. Theorists have proposed for years that religion would disappear, but it has not.
Third, there is argument, that says marriage is now a public symbol of success and achievement. People want to publicly demonstrate to their friends that they have attained a level of success. I kind of buy into it because the meaning of marriage has changed over time. It was originally a way to legitimize children.
Just some thoughts...
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Once again, your assumption is positively correlated to statistics.
well sure....i admit, it's an educated assumption.
toldya this stuff fascinates me, so i have and DO read a lot on the topic. human behavior fascinates me in general, but i am especially interested in gender dynamics and relationships. i think feminism was the first thing to get 'blamed' for the demise of marriage and the diminshment of family....... :roll: obviously, equality does play it's part...but it's just a part of the bigger picture, and there is sooo much more to it than that. nowadays homosexuals get to be 'blamed' for wanting to diminish the sanctity of marriage :roll: :roll: :roll: ...so much 'blame'.....yet really, pointless.
I like this discussion. I have read an argument that posits that heterosexuals opened the door for gay marriage. (which I like) Cohabitation and children born outside of marriage weakened the marriage structure enough for it to be opened to homosexuals.
I don't think feminism was the first to get blamed, it was industrialization. (which is not a valid argument) I don't think it was industrialization, but factors loosely related to industrialization) to the time when parents controlled the employment of their children. Once parents no longer controlled the jobs, kids were able to become geographically mobile and were not as dependent on the family.
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GREAT point!
hell, the origins of "marriage" were NOTHING like they are today! what marriage was 'supposed' to be.....was a legal contract first and foremost, an economic arrangement between families....uniting people for children, etc, etc. there was no "love" built into that equation, tho i am sure it developed, for some, over time. even the beginning sof marriage witin religions, was about being bound together with god....still not about love as it's main purpose. i think the CHOICE involved in marriage today makes it actually the BEST representation/evolution of marriage, yet. sure, it does lead to more marriage 'failure' as in divorce....but i think too it more than likely leaves the marriages that remain at a higher 'success' level of happiness/contentment in their relationship and choice. divorce has risen b/c choice has risen, and b/c we want and expect a LOT more of a marital partner outside of offspring and economic dependence on each other. personallly, i see that as a good transition, overall.
i have similar thought to Drowned Out but specifically on the "reason" not on the wedding!
Before I go forward with my opinion, here's my background. Married at 23 (wife was 21), 2 kids (6 and 3 yrs old)... married for 7 yrs. Wife cheated just after the 7 yr anniversary and left about 6 months later. never saw it coming. Of course, i also found out that she lied to me about my son (he was a 'surprise', but i found out 5 yrs after he was born that she had gone off the pill and not told me). So clearly, there were underlying issues that may have caused me to end up divorced (that wasn't the only thing she lied about). some owned by me, some not. I've gone to therapy to sort out the complete dismantling of my life (I suggest HEAVY doses of Pearl Jam btw), and one of the therapists told me "there's only 2 mistakes that lead to divorce... a mistake in the marriage (meaning during the marriage) and a mistake in marrying (meaning you married the wrong person)". then he told me "you got a bad egg" (meaning i married the wrong person).
With that, I'm amazingly not completely anti-marriage (though it will be tough for me to do it again), but I've started seriously questioning the reasons why people get married. One thing I can tell you is, if you care at all about others and not just yourself (it seems you do for sure), don't bring kids into the picture. No kids (mine included) deserve what happens during divorce. Granted, not all marriage ends the way mine did (badly) and not all divorce processes are ugly (i hope). The worst thing that's ever happened to me emotionally (worse than the cheating, worse than the divorce itself) was the day my 6 yr old son said for the first time "why can't you an mommy just live together again" (he's said it 100 times since then, but it's getting less frequent now). It's not even worth going into how that makes me feel.
So, my question is "why". Why do you want to get married? if you can't answer that question quickly and easily, AND if you answer it in a way that doesn't have a cause:effect relationship, for example: because i love her and want to spend forever with her (that doesn't have cause:effect in any way... you can easily love her and spend forever with her without getting married). Getting married (either religiously via a church or civil via a justice of the peace) "because you want to reap the tax benefits" or "because my religion says I can't have sex without being married" have cause:effect relationships.
You can wear the rings. She (or you I suppose) can change your last name. You can live together. You can have kids together. You can share bank accounts. You can do EVERYTHING the SAME without being married except the VERY FEW things that have cause:effect with marriage. Investigate what those are, and see if marriage is for you. I personally think that people get married because there's some sort of feeling that "that's what people (in love) do".
But clearly my beef (if there is one) isn't with marriage. I happily gave up 50% of our assets. it's just money. my issue was with the kids. The problem with the "don't bring them into the picture" is... you just never know. I'm 100% sure that when I got married, I loved my wife and wanted to spend forever with her (funny, took me a long time to stop feeling that way after she left). They don't call it the 7 year itch for nothing. Married, just living together, whatever, wait a few yrs for kids, IMHO.
I asked myself the question before I got married "but what if...". My what if came true. Doesn't mean yours will.
you seem like a good kid. I wish you the best of luck no matter what you decide. If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.
Sorry to the guy who started this thread. I think we kinda went way off topic from what he wanted.
The shift from necessity to choice has definitely been for the better. I think one of the current desires within marriage is to develop and follow egalitarian gender roles. While this has improved, it is still not where it needs to be in society at large.
Yes, the decreased stigma of divorce also contributed to its rise.
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If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.
EXCELLENT point.
and even if that communication does break down, and it can and does happen....as long as one of you is willing to pick it back up again, and both of you are commited to getting back on track, where you want to be.....as someone we all admire sings: it's all surmountable.
My wife and I got married at the ages of 22 and 23 and are still going strong almost 11 years later. We dated off and on 6 years before that and met in high school. It's atypical but that's what worked for us. You can take everyones' sage advice but at the end of the day do what's right for y'all and don't worry about being judged. Having said all that, it's nothing to rush into. The biggest adjustment for us was learning to live together. We both had had our own places before and now suddenly that other person is ALWAYS around! :P We had to learn to respect each others space. And while we do almost everything together, we also realize it's a healthy thing to do stuff independently sometimes. And while it's not very romantic to say, make sure you really like this person because there are days you're not going to feel "in love". My wife is, first and foremost, my best friend. We really enjoy each others company and like hanging out together. Also as mentioned before, communication is key. You have to be able to talk and be totally honest with each other. And I guess the last thing I can say is laugh. I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.
So that's my experience and advice. That's what's worked for us so far. Take from it what you will.
It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!
It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!
If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.
EXCELLENT point.
and even if that communication does break down, and it can and does happen....as long as one of you is willing to pick it back up again, and both of you are commited to getting back on track, where you want to be.....as someone we all admire sings: it's all surmountable.
D2D. Thanks. I figure I had 2 choices coming out of it all: curl up in to a ball and waste away or learn something and come out for the better. I'm a much better person, and a WAY better dad today than I was just 2 years ago (IMHO).
but back to the OP. the purpose of my story was not "hey look at me, my life sucked, marriage sucks". Shitty stuff can happen to anyone, doesn't mean it's going to. I hoped the summary about communication, and the anecdotes about lying etc. make the case for "be careful". One thing I forgot to mention is that you have to know yourself and love yourself before you can love someone else.
I think too many people aren't really sure what "love" is (myself included) and sometimes can get confused by certain things (not just the obvious things like sex, and we like the same music, and like to do things for each other etc.). for that reason alone I'd suggest waiting until you have a deeper appreciation and understanding of those things.
.should I be worried about what others think because of my age?.
You should never be worried about what others think....
Personally, I don't think it's a question of age (the number) but rather where you are in your life. I'll give you an example of what I mean...
My very best friend had a boyfriend a few years younger than her. At the time they got together, he was 18 (a mature 18 year old). He was a student and she worked (with a good salary). They were very happy, had a little girl and all was hunky dory until.....
he graduated from university (a few years later) and he had to go out 'in the real world'. That changed him a hell of a lot.. work, responsibilities, etc., no longer the 'student' type of life. Though things had not changed at all at home, he had difficulties adjusting to this 'adult' life. I am sure if he had been in full time work at the beginning of the relationship, the problem would not have been there (or if she had been a student and they had started their working life at the same time). Needless to say the relationship did not last much longer (though they tried).
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say..... nothing to do with age per se but with where you are at.
you can't have a threesome after marriage?
i didn't recite that in my marriage vows....;)
of course you can
but its more of a general question to gauge the overall life experience of the OP
and I NEVER kiss and tell
oh i got that.......just saying, amazingly ....there are people who can happily go to their grave without ever having a threesome. really. or so i've heard...:P
in all seriousness, 'life experience' is a great and important thing, but what that constitutes, and what one deems important in that arena....varies greatly from person to person, couple to couple.....and even there, age isn't necessarily a good indicator. i know 22 year olds who i think are really 'living'...do and experience so much....and i know people at 42 who imo, have barely lived....and yet both are quite content. it's like those who marry their one and only, their HS sweetheart, and stay together for life. i don't think i could do that, and yet i know of 2 couples who thus far have.....and 1 of them is truly amazingly happy, and the other...i just don't think are happy people, period. some people have smaller expectations and desires...and utterly content and happy......and sure, others have bigger, bolder desires....... so even with not a lot of 'life experience' one could, theoretically, know what they want and go for it at a young age.
My wife and I got married at the ages of 22 and 23 and are still going strong almost 11 years later. We dated off and on 6 years before that and met in high school. It's atypical but that's what worked for us. You can take everyones' sage advice but at the end of the day do what's right for y'all and don't worry about being judged. Having said all that, it's nothing to rush into. The biggest adjustment for us was learning to live together. We both had had our own places before and now suddenly that other person is ALWAYS around! We had to learn to respect each others space. And while we do almost everything together, we also realize it's a healthy thing to do stuff independently sometimes. And while it's not very romantic to say, make sure you really like this person because there are days you're not going to feel "in love". My wife is, first and foremost, my best friend. We really enjoy each others company and like hanging out together. Also as mentioned before, communication is key. You have to be able to talk and be totally honest with each other. And I guess the last thing I can say is laugh. I'd take a Nolan Ryan fastball to the nuts if I knew it would crack my wife up.
So that's my experience and advice. That's what's worked for us so far. Take from it what you will.
It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!
what a beautiful post! honestly, i am quite amazed at just how many on this board married young - myself included - and are still happily together. i just didn't think too many married that young anymore, and/or if they did....guess i was buying into all the ideas of divorce being so prevalent. obviously, many have divorced....but it's just so cool to read so many happy, young marriage experiences. hope it keeps going!
I am looking at our family tree and there is no wedding date for when my great Aunt, 74 married her husband, who is about 80 now. She had their first son in 1954 and they are still married. My mom and I were around them in 2007. He took her hand, smiled and started playing with her fingers and the look on his face as he looked her in the eyes was priceless. Later that night, my mom said, "did you see the look ("come hither") in his eyes?" That's amazing. They live in a rural area, maybe the fresh air helps the marriage? My mom told me my Aunt was 15 when he began "courting" her. I think she can be a little bitchy sometimes like her sister was (my grandma.) It runs in the family. (soulsinging, do you suppose that's why he likes her so much?)
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10/10 - Brad in B'more
One.. age is a number sometimes, and that's all it is. You know yourself better then anyone. Your 21 might be someone else's 30. Everyone is different. I turned 23, 2 weeks before I got married. People gave me shit for it. It's not for everyone, but to each his own. I'm very happy 2.5 years later, as is my husband. Some people need to wait (for themselves) till they are much older to get married. I don't think there is a magic number that works for everyone.
two.. when you've lived together for a while and endured real life together, nothing changes when you get married. I lived with my husband for over a year and 1/2 and graduated college, moved across the country, dealt with family crisis and such.. getting married was great, but changed zero about my living situation. It was kinda like, well here we are after the wedding.. back to normal life!
drowned out....what is 'interesting' about some stats is that people who live together before marriage are actually MORE likely to divorce than those who don't live together first. so it does say something about that 'piece of paper'.....tho all interpretations of just what it says will vary greatly.
btw - get married in NY......you get 99.5% of your gifts in cash.
seriously tho, for me.....the idea that i willing chose, and my husband willing chose, to legally bind ourselves together, to make a formal commitment....a spiritual(not the same as religious, tho for some it may be) commitment......that's MY kind of commitment. others don't need or want it....but i do.....it's all good......
ok, you can't have it both ways (actually, sounds like maybe YOU can :P )....you can't claim it's a personal thing; different for everyone, then throw stats at me
so you married 'despite your beliefs' that it is meaningless? perhaps not the best idea. hahaha..
never saw THAT comment comin! :roll: :P
Nah, I don’t regret it or anything…she knew how I felt about marriage, her mistake not mine! ...getting married was HER fuck up .... SHE always wanted the big, fairytale wedding…I didn’t think that because I had an unconventional view on it, she should be denied that. I told her this straight up....I didn’t need the piece of paper OR the ceremony, but that's how she wanted it…and since I didn't care about the institution of marriage (only the commitment), I thought....well...this is how she wants to commit, so why would I NOT want to marry her if I DO want to spend my life with her? It’s not like I’m AGAINST marriage…I just think it's (increasingly) unnecessary.
Now, if we're talking about the failure to live out our commitment? the blame goes 50/50 for sure....well...maybe 55/45...or 60/40 lol.... I'll take partial blame for the divorce, but the marriage is all her fault
It's a piece of paper and all of you sickening, happily married people will never convince me otherwise! :P
(your right, this could go on forever....think we've already ran in this circle inumerable times over the years )
Its definetly a gut thing. My wife and I are high school sweethearts. Next month we will celebrate our 19th anniversary. We have actually been together 22.
About age; you know that ignorant ass that just pisses everyone off and he is like in his 30's? Some asses never mature. 21 year olds were ancient in Vietnam... Life defines, not age.
About kids; dont wait too long. You want to experience and grow with your wife AND your children. Cant even imagine being the old fart raising the kids and trying to relate. Much funner being not too far removed and able to play/coach them in sports and in life.
do not get married......................having a consistant person to engage with is over-rated, punching your clown and never knowing who your partner has been with, adds suspense in the sack.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
Comments
Besides...unless you're bein cheap or have a bride with a rich, traditional family...your weddign costs should pretty much offset the gifts n cash...which just means in the end, you're letting other people pick out all the shit for your house, but still payin for it (unless you sign up to a registry, which just sucks everyone into buying crap from one place and missing out on deals).
agree, disagree...c'est la vie........so many differing perspectives on it. i take no issue with those who say marriage is not for them, more power to ya....it in no way diminishes my personal views of marriage, nor my own marriage...
drowned out....what is 'interesting' about some stats is that people who live together before marriage are actually MORE likely to divorce than those who don't live together first. so it does say something about that 'piece of paper'.....tho all interpretations of just what it says will vary greatly.
btw - get married in NY......you get 99.5% of your gifts in cash.
seriously tho, for me.....the idea that i willing chose, and my husband willing chose, to legally bind ourselves together, to make a formal commitment....a spiritual(not the same as religious, tho for some it may be) commitment......that's MY kind of commitment. others don't need or want it....but i do.....it's all good......
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
The bold is pretty much the argument that got me sucked into it, despite my beliefs, in the first place
have you had a threesome yet?
if not delay marriage.
kidding
sort of
Yeah, if we were to live our life by stats only, it would be no fun. Plus, different studies can produce different results. But the study of trends in marriage and the family is truly fascinating. You are exactly right when you mention 'having' to marry. People now have a choice, so the marry for romantic ideas instead of economic cooperation.
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so you married 'despite your beliefs' that it is meaningless? perhaps not the best idea.
while i think my husband could've easily chosen to live with me for life and not 'needed' marriage......he did ask me, no pressures - we even got married in a church! :shock: ....and he also is glad we both chose marriage, for ALL the reasons possible. i know when people debate the topic, the idea that it's just a piece of paper, or how can it be 'more' etc......goes on and on, and all i can say is....it just is, for some of us, anyway....:P i respect others not believing in that choice, it just happens to be my personal choice.
absolutely.
i also believe that a good portion of the reason for the increase in divorce IS the fact that marriage is truly a CHOICE nowadays, and NOT an absolute 'necessity' as it once was.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
have you?
:P
you can't have a threesome after marriage?
i didn't recite that in my marriage vows....;)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Nashville-03
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Chicago 1 & 2-09
Alpine Valley 1 & 2-11
Wrigley-13
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St. Paul 1 & 2 - 23
well sure....i admit, it's an educated assumption.
toldya this stuff fascinates me, so i have and DO read a lot on the topic. human behavior fascinates me in general, but i am especially interested in gender dynamics and relationships. i think feminism was the first thing to get 'blamed' for the demise of marriage and the diminshment of family....... :roll: obviously, equality does play it's part...but it's just a part of the bigger picture, and there is sooo much more to it than that. nowadays homosexuals get to be 'blamed' for wanting to diminish the sanctity of marriage :roll: :roll: :roll: ...so much 'blame'.....yet really, pointless.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Just for the sake of argument, because you see that I tend to agree with many statements you make.... First, marriage is not a dying institution. It is definitely a CHANGING institution, but it is not dying. The U.S. still has one of the highest marriage rates in the world.
Second, (please note I AM NOT RELIGIOUS) even though the secularization theory has for years stated that religion is disappearing, it is not. We are seeing an increase in the amount of people who choose no religious preference on surveys, but people still continue to believe in religious phenomena or in a god. Theorists have proposed for years that religion would disappear, but it has not.
Third, there is argument, that says marriage is now a public symbol of success and achievement. People want to publicly demonstrate to their friends that they have attained a level of success. I kind of buy into it because the meaning of marriage has changed over time. It was originally a way to legitimize children.
Just some thoughts...
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St. Paul 1 & 2 - 23
I like this discussion. I have read an argument that posits that heterosexuals opened the door for gay marriage. (which I like) Cohabitation and children born outside of marriage weakened the marriage structure enough for it to be opened to homosexuals.
I don't think feminism was the first to get blamed, it was industrialization. (which is not a valid argument) I don't think it was industrialization, but factors loosely related to industrialization) to the time when parents controlled the employment of their children. Once parents no longer controlled the jobs, kids were able to become geographically mobile and were not as dependent on the family.
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St. Paul 1 & 2 - 23
GREAT point!
hell, the origins of "marriage" were NOTHING like they are today! what marriage was 'supposed' to be.....was a legal contract first and foremost, an economic arrangement between families....uniting people for children, etc, etc. there was no "love" built into that equation, tho i am sure it developed, for some, over time. even the beginning sof marriage witin religions, was about being bound together with god....still not about love as it's main purpose. i think the CHOICE involved in marriage today makes it actually the BEST representation/evolution of marriage, yet. sure, it does lead to more marriage 'failure' as in divorce....but i think too it more than likely leaves the marriages that remain at a higher 'success' level of happiness/contentment in their relationship and choice. divorce has risen b/c choice has risen, and b/c we want and expect a LOT more of a marital partner outside of offspring and economic dependence on each other. personallly, i see that as a good transition, overall.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Before I go forward with my opinion, here's my background. Married at 23 (wife was 21), 2 kids (6 and 3 yrs old)... married for 7 yrs. Wife cheated just after the 7 yr anniversary and left about 6 months later. never saw it coming. Of course, i also found out that she lied to me about my son (he was a 'surprise', but i found out 5 yrs after he was born that she had gone off the pill and not told me). So clearly, there were underlying issues that may have caused me to end up divorced (that wasn't the only thing she lied about). some owned by me, some not. I've gone to therapy to sort out the complete dismantling of my life (I suggest HEAVY doses of Pearl Jam btw), and one of the therapists told me "there's only 2 mistakes that lead to divorce... a mistake in the marriage (meaning during the marriage) and a mistake in marrying (meaning you married the wrong person)". then he told me "you got a bad egg" (meaning i married the wrong person).
With that, I'm amazingly not completely anti-marriage (though it will be tough for me to do it again), but I've started seriously questioning the reasons why people get married. One thing I can tell you is, if you care at all about others and not just yourself (it seems you do for sure), don't bring kids into the picture. No kids (mine included) deserve what happens during divorce. Granted, not all marriage ends the way mine did (badly) and not all divorce processes are ugly (i hope). The worst thing that's ever happened to me emotionally (worse than the cheating, worse than the divorce itself) was the day my 6 yr old son said for the first time "why can't you an mommy just live together again" (he's said it 100 times since then, but it's getting less frequent now). It's not even worth going into how that makes me feel.
So, my question is "why". Why do you want to get married? if you can't answer that question quickly and easily, AND if you answer it in a way that doesn't have a cause:effect relationship, for example: because i love her and want to spend forever with her (that doesn't have cause:effect in any way... you can easily love her and spend forever with her without getting married). Getting married (either religiously via a church or civil via a justice of the peace) "because you want to reap the tax benefits" or "because my religion says I can't have sex without being married" have cause:effect relationships.
You can wear the rings. She (or you I suppose) can change your last name. You can live together. You can have kids together. You can share bank accounts. You can do EVERYTHING the SAME without being married except the VERY FEW things that have cause:effect with marriage. Investigate what those are, and see if marriage is for you. I personally think that people get married because there's some sort of feeling that "that's what people (in love) do".
But clearly my beef (if there is one) isn't with marriage. I happily gave up 50% of our assets. it's just money. my issue was with the kids. The problem with the "don't bring them into the picture" is... you just never know. I'm 100% sure that when I got married, I loved my wife and wanted to spend forever with her (funny, took me a long time to stop feeling that way after she left). They don't call it the 7 year itch for nothing. Married, just living together, whatever, wait a few yrs for kids, IMHO.
I asked myself the question before I got married "but what if...". My what if came true. Doesn't mean yours will.
you seem like a good kid. I wish you the best of luck no matter what you decide. If there's one piece of advice that I'd say could trump all others it's: communication is the key. As long as there he good, plentiful, HONEST, communication, all things can be overcome in a marriage. including the "growing apart" stuff.
Another reason I would say divorce is on the rise and been for years is that there is less of a stigma attached to it than there used to be.
The shift from necessity to choice has definitely been for the better. I think one of the current desires within marriage is to develop and follow egalitarian gender roles. While this has improved, it is still not where it needs to be in society at large.
Yes, the decreased stigma of divorce also contributed to its rise.
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St. Paul 1 & 2 - 23
EXCELLENT point.
and even if that communication does break down, and it can and does happen....as long as one of you is willing to pick it back up again, and both of you are commited to getting back on track, where you want to be.....as someone we all admire sings: it's all surmountable.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
but its more of a general question to gauge the overall life experience of the OP
and I NEVER kiss and tell
So that's my experience and advice. That's what's worked for us so far. Take from it what you will.
It's, no doubt, a scary venture. And it takes both parties continually working hard to keep a marriage happy and healthy. But it can also be a very awesome and rewarding experience. Good luck!
very nicely said.
but back to the OP. the purpose of my story was not "hey look at me, my life sucked, marriage sucks". Shitty stuff can happen to anyone, doesn't mean it's going to. I hoped the summary about communication, and the anecdotes about lying etc. make the case for "be careful". One thing I forgot to mention is that you have to know yourself and love yourself before you can love someone else.
I think too many people aren't really sure what "love" is (myself included) and sometimes can get confused by certain things (not just the obvious things like sex, and we like the same music, and like to do things for each other etc.). for that reason alone I'd suggest waiting until you have a deeper appreciation and understanding of those things.
You should never be worried about what others think....
Personally, I don't think it's a question of age (the number) but rather where you are in your life. I'll give you an example of what I mean...
My very best friend had a boyfriend a few years younger than her. At the time they got together, he was 18 (a mature 18 year old). He was a student and she worked (with a good salary). They were very happy, had a little girl and all was hunky dory until.....
he graduated from university (a few years later) and he had to go out 'in the real world'. That changed him a hell of a lot.. work, responsibilities, etc., no longer the 'student' type of life. Though things had not changed at all at home, he had difficulties adjusting to this 'adult' life. I am sure if he had been in full time work at the beginning of the relationship, the problem would not have been there (or if she had been a student and they had started their working life at the same time). Needless to say the relationship did not last much longer (though they tried).
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say..... nothing to do with age per se but with where you are at.
I wish you and your lady all the best....
oh i got that.......just saying, amazingly
in all seriousness, 'life experience' is a great and important thing, but what that constitutes, and what one deems important in that arena....varies greatly from person to person, couple to couple.....and even there, age isn't necessarily a good indicator. i know 22 year olds who i think are really 'living'...do and experience so much....and i know people at 42 who imo, have barely lived....and yet both are quite content. it's like those who marry their one and only, their HS sweetheart, and stay together for life. i don't think i could do that, and yet i know of 2 couples who thus far have.....and 1 of them is truly amazingly happy, and the other...i just don't think are happy people, period.
what a beautiful post! honestly, i am quite amazed at just how many on this board married young - myself included - and are still happily together. i just didn't think too many married that young anymore, and/or if they did....guess i was buying into all the ideas of divorce being so prevalent. obviously, many have divorced....but it's just so cool to read so many happy, young marriage experiences. hope it keeps going!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
One.. age is a number sometimes, and that's all it is. You know yourself better then anyone. Your 21 might be someone else's 30. Everyone is different. I turned 23, 2 weeks before I got married. People gave me shit for it. It's not for everyone, but to each his own. I'm very happy 2.5 years later, as is my husband. Some people need to wait (for themselves) till they are much older to get married. I don't think there is a magic number that works for everyone.
two.. when you've lived together for a while and endured real life together, nothing changes when you get married. I lived with my husband for over a year and 1/2 and graduated college, moved across the country, dealt with family crisis and such.. getting married was great, but changed zero about my living situation. It was kinda like, well here we are after the wedding.. back to normal life!
Good luck though!
never saw THAT comment comin! :roll: :P
Nah, I don’t regret it or anything…she knew how I felt about marriage, her mistake not mine!
Now, if we're talking about the failure to live out our commitment? the blame goes 50/50 for sure....well...maybe 55/45...or 60/40 lol.... I'll take partial blame for the divorce, but the marriage is all her fault
It's a piece of paper and all of you sickening, happily married people will never convince me otherwise! :P
(your right, this could go on forever....think we've already ran in this circle inumerable times over the years
Marriage is the #1 cause of divorce, you know.
And they say romance is dead!
About age; you know that ignorant ass that just pisses everyone off and he is like in his 30's? Some asses never mature. 21 year olds were ancient in Vietnam... Life defines, not age.
About kids; dont wait too long. You want to experience and grow with your wife AND your children. Cant even imagine being the old fart raising the kids and trying to relate. Much funner being not too far removed and able to play/coach them in sports and in life.