i didn't say anything about tracking down and killing everyone - you guys put that in there for effect i presume ...
i simply stated my family came and took over your house ...
thats why your original question is pointless and irrelevant. you are trying to apply would I would do personally if my house was "invaded" and apply it to entire countries.
not countries ... people ... settlers taking land from people ... it's a simple notion ... what do you do when no one will help ...
i didn't say anything about tracking down and killing everyone - you guys put that in there for effect i presume ...
i simply stated my family came and took over your house ...
thats why your original question is pointless and irrelevant. you are trying to apply would I would do personally if my house was "invaded" and apply it to entire countries.
not countries ... people ... settlers taking land from people ... it's a simple notion ... what do you do when no one will help ...
countries, people, settlers, whatever. you cant apply to what one person would do and apply it to everyone. which has been explained to you several times.
but yet you feel ALL civilians living in disputed land should be killed.
countries, people, settlers, whatever. you cant apply to what one person would do and apply it to everyone. which has been explained to you several times.
but yet you feel ALL civilians living in disputed land should be killed.
uhhh ... you haven't explained anything to me ... saying you don't like my question doesn't make it a relevant or irrelevant - it's just your opinion ...
try and walk one day in the shoe of someone who's lost everything by these illegal settlers ... do i want to see them dead? absolutely NOT but they are stealing and they have been told to leave but won't ... at some point - your resistance has to escalate beyone a letter campaign ...
Until Hamas can have clean hands when talking about violence, public opinion will not change in the US to the extent that it needs to. Is it fair? No. But you know what? Life isn't. Cry me a fucking river and then deal with it.
The Palestinians have tried non-violence on numerous occasions. They tried it during the cease-fire last year until Israel broke the ceasefire by conducting a raid which left 6 Palestinians dead. Did the American public give a shit about Hamas keeping it's side of the bargain? Nope. Cry me a fucking river indeed.
Meanwhile, the settlement building continues.
Sorry, but one attack with 6 dead isn't going to catch America's eye. It would take time, and a consistent demonstration of Israel's brutality. Otherwise, it's like an alcoholic wanting a gold star for keeping clean a month and then falling off the wagon at the first sign of trouble. American sentiment won't change overnight.
I'll repeat myslef yet again. I said I would call the police and protect my family from those breaking into my house.
I wouldn't go track down and kill everyone who thought that breaking into my house was a good idea.
i didn't say anything about tracking down and killing everyone - you guys put that in there for effect i presume ...
i simply stated my family came and took over your house ...
we all know they've tried the non-violent route ... and that has done nothing for them ...
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
it's not about killing anyone and everyone - it's about fighting back against your oppressors when no one else will help you ... again - has israel ever paid for the crimes they have committed which you have already said far outweigh those of the palestinians?
I'd call the cops. And if they didn't help, I'd hogtie the dude and toss him out. But I would not go around killing the innocent people in his life in order to prove a point. Guilt by association sounds alarmingly like the kind of justification Bush used for the Iraq War... "well, they're all Islamic and they didn't STOP 9/11, so clearly they side with the hijackers and are fair game for killing." or "the people of Iraq didn't topple Saddam, so clearly they're part of his regime and we can kill them at at will."
See what kind of atrocities you can rationalize when you start saying that anyone tangentially tied to a guilty party is fair game for killing?
If Hamas wants to attack military installations, police stations, checkpoints, fair play to them. But once they start targeting schools, cafes, residences, etc... they're committing war crimes. I don't care what justification you offer. Yes, Israel is the far worse offender on this count, but it doesn't make it ok for others to do it less. I can't rape and murder the hot chick down the hall and say "well, she dressed like a slut so she was asking for it, and besides, Ted Bundy raped and murders 50 women, so compared to him, I''m ok."
there are two issues here:
1. are illegal settlers legitimate targets? i believe they are - so, they aren't innocent civilians to me (which is the point of my questioning)
2. this is a war - so, israel has been killing and oppressing innocent civilians for years and now that the palestinians are fighting back - now, everyone has to fight fair all of a sudden? ... in your example ted bundy was convicted and put in jail ... what consequences have israelis suffered? ... have they paid for their crimes?
1. I firmly disagree. Stealing should not carry the death penalty. Thus, you're not justified in firing guns and rockets at women and children just because their husbands and fathers got the brilliant idea of dragging them to a settlement.
2. No. As both jlew and I have stated REPEATEDLY, Israel has not been playing fair and they should be held accountable for it. They should have from day one and I sincerely hope that some day soon America will stop turning a blind eye to their atrocities. It is not "all of a sudden." My belief that innocent civilians should not be targeted for violence precedes Palestinian retaliation. It applies to Israel as well as Hamas.
What difference does it make that Bundy got caught? I still deserve to be held accountable for MY murders, don't I? If Bundy hadn't been caught, am I allowed to go raping and murdering at will and then just say "hey, that guy is worse and you haven't caught HIM"? No, Israel has not suffered any consequences yet. That is a damn shame because they should. But that doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do the same acts that you want Israel held accountable for.
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
it's not about killing anyone and everyone - it's about fighting back against your oppressors when no one else will help you ... again - has israel ever paid for the crimes they have committed which you have already said far outweigh those of the palestinians?
No, Israel has not. And they should. But the fact that they haven't doesn't make it ok for someone else to do the same things. I can't kill someone and then say "hey, other people murder people and don't get caught or in trouble, so I'm allowed to do it."
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
countries, people, settlers, whatever. you cant apply to what one person would do and apply it to everyone. which has been explained to you several times.
but yet you feel ALL civilians living in disputed land should be killed.
uhhh ... you haven't explained anything to me ... saying you don't like my question doesn't make it a relevant or irrelevant - it's just your opinion ...
try and walk one day in the shoe of someone who's lost everything by these illegal settlers ... do i want to see them dead? absolutely NOT but they are stealing and they have been told to leave but won't ... at some point - your resistance has to escalate beyone a letter campaign ...
Where's your line then? They stole the land, we can kill them. Ok. Where do you stop then. Your house? Can you kill someone for taking your car? Your wallet? Your ipod? Your place in line at the deli? When does it suddenly become not ok to execute someone for stealing?
1. I firmly disagree. Stealing should not carry the death penalty. Thus, you're not justified in firing guns and rockets at women and children just because their husbands and fathers got the brilliant idea of dragging them to a settlement.
2. No. As both jlew and I have stated REPEATEDLY, Israel has not been playing fair and they should be held accountable for it. They should have from day one and I sincerely hope that some day soon America will stop turning a blind eye to their atrocities. It is not "all of a sudden." My belief that innocent civilians should not be targeted for violence precedes Palestinian retaliation. It applies to Israel as well as Hamas.
What difference does it make that Bundy got caught? I still deserve to be held accountable for MY murders, don't I? If Bundy hadn't been caught, am I allowed to go raping and murdering at will and then just say "hey, that guy is worse and you haven't caught HIM"? No, Israel has not suffered any consequences yet. That is a damn shame because they should. But that doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do the same acts that you want Israel held accountable for.
first of all - your analogy is off ... i don't think you should be able to rape whoever you want cuz ted bundy did ... i am saying tho that if you have a family and you are seeing ted bundy rape all the women in it without consequence then you should be able to respond accordingly ...
secondly - we're not talking about petty theft ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter, one's ability to feed their family, it's about now having nothing to feed and house your family ... if you guys say you would do nothing then so be it ... i can respect that opinion - i happen to think otherwise ...
lastly - while you might believe that israel should pay for their crimes - the simple fact is they have not and yet you believe the palestinians should continue to not retaliate ...
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
Where's your line then? They stole the land, we can kill them. Ok. Where do you stop then. Your house? Can you kill someone for taking your car? Your wallet? Your ipod? Your place in line at the deli? When does it suddenly become not ok to execute someone for stealing?
as stated in my previous post - we are not talking about simply stealing some materialistic items ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter and ability to feed and shelter their family here ...
if there was any restitution or avenue of justice it would be one thing but there is not ... in the case of the settlers - where do they think these people are gonna go? ... do they care what the heck happens to them? ... not likely ... they are sending women and children to be homeless ...
i'm not sure where that line is - what i do know is that these settlers have passed it a while ago ... again - is death and destruction my wish? ... no ... but i support these people's efforts to try and get their land back and unfortunately - sit ins, letter campaigns and pleading with higher authorities has gotten them nothing ...
if you guys say you would do nothing then so be it ... i can respect that opinion - i happen to think otherwise ...
I'll explain YET AGAIN why your analogy isnt working.. we are not saying we would do nothing. why do you keep implying that? we would call the police and in the case of someone raping a family member, I would take matters into my own hands if I could. I would attack the single person who is responsible. not every person who thought it was a good idea or agreed or happened to know him in high school.
you are applying a single act of violence against a single person and applying it to entire races of people. again, pointless and irrelevant.
dont say we would do nothing again. its not true and I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.
1. I firmly disagree. Stealing should not carry the death penalty. Thus, you're not justified in firing guns and rockets at women and children just because their husbands and fathers got the brilliant idea of dragging them to a settlement.
2. No. As both jlew and I have stated REPEATEDLY, Israel has not been playing fair and they should be held accountable for it. They should have from day one and I sincerely hope that some day soon America will stop turning a blind eye to their atrocities. It is not "all of a sudden." My belief that innocent civilians should not be targeted for violence precedes Palestinian retaliation. It applies to Israel as well as Hamas.
What difference does it make that Bundy got caught? I still deserve to be held accountable for MY murders, don't I? If Bundy hadn't been caught, am I allowed to go raping and murdering at will and then just say "hey, that guy is worse and you haven't caught HIM"? No, Israel has not suffered any consequences yet. That is a damn shame because they should. But that doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do the same acts that you want Israel held accountable for.
first of all - your analogy is off ... i don't think you should be able to rape whoever you want cuz ted bundy did ... i am saying tho that if you have a family and you are seeing ted bundy rape all the women in it without consequence then you should be able to respond accordingly ...
secondly - we're not talking about petty theft ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter, one's ability to feed their family, it's about now having nothing to feed and house your family ... if you guys say you would do nothing then so be it ... i can respect that opinion - i happen to think otherwise ...
lastly - while you might believe that israel should pay for their crimes - the simple fact is they have not and yet you believe the palestinians should continue to not retaliate ...
First of all, it is no more off than your analogy. If someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo, you can't kill them. And in many countries, there are squatters' rights designed to PROTECT people that move into property they don't own... you can't kill them or throw them out, you have to contest ownership in court.
Second, no, we're not talking about petty theft. But where does it stop? If someone stole my car, I couldn't get to work, so I have no way to feed and house my family with no income. It's all a matter of degree. Where do you draw the line. By this logic, wouldn't I be justified in murdering or blowing up the bank that foreclosed on my home loan and evicted me? They left me with no way to shelter my family.
Lastly, once again, for the 4th time, as I have said a half dozen fucking times in this fucking thread that you seem utterly unable to read, comprehend, remember, or understand, yet I'll try it one more time and hope it gets through that thick skull and sticks this time... WHERE HAVE I SAID PALESTIN CANNOT RETALIATE? I have said, time and time and fucking time a-fucking-gain... they CAN. They just should not target unarmed civilians when they do it. I cannot believe it is so shocking and appalling to people here that somebody might suggest "hey guys, when we're fighting for our rights, maybe we should try to not kill unarmed women and kids." How awful of me I guess.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
I'll explain YET AGAIN why your analogy isnt working.. we are not saying we would do nothing. why do you keep implying that? we would call the police and in the case of someone raping a family member, I would take matters into my own hands if I could. I would attack the single person who is responsible. not every person who thought it was a good idea or agreed or happened to know him in high school.
you are applying a single act of violence against a single person and applying it to entire races of people. again, pointless and irrelevant.
dont say we would do nothing again. its not true and I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.
my first question stated that the police have done nothing (which is the case here) ... so, saying you would just call the police is akin to doing nothing because that was already given to you in the initial question ... the question has ALWAYS been what would you do then?
secondly, you now admit to saying you would attack the single person responsible ... how is fighting against these settlers not doing just that?
Where's your line then? They stole the land, we can kill them. Ok. Where do you stop then. Your house? Can you kill someone for taking your car? Your wallet? Your ipod? Your place in line at the deli? When does it suddenly become not ok to execute someone for stealing?
as stated in my previous post - we are not talking about simply stealing some materialistic items ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter and ability to feed and shelter their family here ...
if there was any restitution or avenue of justice it would be one thing but there is not ... in the case of the settlers - where do they think these people are gonna go? ... do they care what the heck happens to them? ... not likely ... they are sending women and children to be homeless ...
i'm not sure where that line is - what i do know is that these settlers have passed it a while ago ... again - is death and destruction my wish? ... no ... but i support these people's efforts to try and get their land back and unfortunately - sit ins, letter campaigns and pleading with higher authorities has gotten them nothing ...
To my knowledge, there's never been a sit in, and I certainly can't think of any sustained non-violent effort by Hamas. That's their prerogative though. It tooks years for the US non-violent resistance to gain equal rights for blacks, and that was after a number of disgusting atrocities. But the current situation, to the American public, looks like a war where all is fair. Until it becomes clear that this is a fascist, violent, brutally oppressive police state, American support for Israel will not waver. The more Hamas targets civilians for violence, the longer that will take. It's not fair, but that's life.
I'll explain YET AGAIN why your analogy isnt working.. we are not saying we would do nothing. why do you keep implying that? we would call the police and in the case of someone raping a family member, I would take matters into my own hands if I could. I would attack the single person who is responsible. not every person who thought it was a good idea or agreed or happened to know him in high school.
you are applying a single act of violence against a single person and applying it to entire races of people. again, pointless and irrelevant.
dont say we would do nothing again. its not true and I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.
my first question stated that the police have done nothing (which is the case here) ... so, saying you would just call the police is akin to doing nothing because that was already given to you in the initial question ... the question has ALWAYS been what would you do then?
who are the police in your anaolgy? Hamas? they do plenty.
secondly, you now admit to saying you would attack the single person responsible ... how is fighting against these settlers not doing just that?
because I wouldnt go kill the rapist's 5 year old daughter while she is on her way to school. she has nothing to do with her father raping my family member.
The reasonable use of lethal force will be allowed if an intruder is:
- Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes
- Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place
- Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.
this is above on beyond simply "threatening" someone.
uhhh ... unlawfully trying to enter a protected place ... it says you can shoot someone dead for trespassing ... how am i wrong?
Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
First of all, it is no more off than your analogy. If someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo, you can't kill them. And in many countries, there are squatters' rights designed to PROTECT people that move into property they don't own... you can't kill them or throw them out, you have to contest ownership in court.
Second, no, we're not talking about petty theft. But where does it stop? If someone stole my car, I couldn't get to work, so I have no way to feed and house my family with no income. It's all a matter of degree. Where do you draw the line. By this logic, wouldn't I be justified in murdering or blowing up the bank that foreclosed on my home loan and evicted me? They left me with no way to shelter my family.
Lastly, once again, for the 4th time, as I have said a half dozen fucking times in this fucking thread that you seem utterly unable to read, comprehend, remember, or understand, yet I'll try it one more time and hope it gets through that thick skull and sticks this time... WHERE HAVE I SAID PALESTIN CANNOT RETALIATE? I have said, time and time and fucking time a-fucking-gain... they CAN. They just should not target unarmed civilians when they do it. I cannot believe it is so shocking and appalling to people here that somebody might suggest "hey guys, when we're fighting for our rights, maybe we should try to not kill unarmed women and kids." How awful of me I guess.
uhhh ... everyone is repeating themselves here ... maybe you should see if YOU'VE actually paid attention before you make accusations ..
all i've stated is that if you are illegally occupying someone's land (ie. settlers) they are open to retaliation ... i haven't mentioned anyone else ...
back to your analogy ... if you can't afford to pay what you agreed to pay then that is your own consequence - it is not what is happening in gaza is it? ... feel free to come up with any analogous situation and i will respond accordingly ... stealing a stereo? ... no ... coming to my farm and sending my family onto the street and having no authority to turn to - yes ... i will fight back ...
First of all, it is no more off than your analogy. If someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo, you can't kill them. And in many countries, there are squatters' rights designed to PROTECT people that move into property they don't own... you can't kill them or throw them out, you have to contest ownership in court.
Second, no, we're not talking about petty theft. But where does it stop? If someone stole my car, I couldn't get to work, so I have no way to feed and house my family with no income. It's all a matter of degree. Where do you draw the line. By this logic, wouldn't I be justified in murdering or blowing up the bank that foreclosed on my home loan and evicted me? They left me with no way to shelter my family.
Lastly, once again, for the 4th time, as I have said a half dozen fucking times in this fucking thread that you seem utterly unable to read, comprehend, remember, or understand, yet I'll try it one more time and hope it gets through that thick skull and sticks this time... WHERE HAVE I SAID PALESTIN CANNOT RETALIATE? I have said, time and time and fucking time a-fucking-gain... they CAN. They just should not target unarmed civilians when they do it. I cannot believe it is so shocking and appalling to people here that somebody might suggest "hey guys, when we're fighting for our rights, maybe we should try to not kill unarmed women and kids." How awful of me I guess.
uhhh ... everyone is repeating themselves here ... maybe you should see if YOU'VE actually paid attention before you make accusations ..
all i've stated is that if you are illegally occupying someone's land (ie. settlers) they are open to retaliation ... i haven't mentioned anyone else ...
back to your analogy ... if you can't afford to pay what you agreed to pay then that is your own consequence - it is not what is happening in gaza is it? ... feel free to come up with any analogous situation and i will respond accordingly ... stealing a stereo? ... no ... coming to my farm and sending my family onto the street and having no authority to turn to - yes ... i will fight back ...
By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense?
To my knowledge, there's never been a sit in, and I certainly can't think of any sustained non-violent effort by Hamas. That's their prerogative though. It tooks years for the US non-violent resistance to gain equal rights for blacks, and that was after a number of disgusting atrocities. But the current situation, to the American public, looks like a war where all is fair. Until it becomes clear that this is a fascist, violent, brutally oppressive police state, American support for Israel will not waver. The more Hamas targets civilians for violence, the longer that will take. It's not fair, but that's life.
hamas wouldn't exist without the israeli oppression and settlements ... that's the point ... years upon years of resolutions trying to get them to stop but they didn't cuz of US support ... remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ... do you think hamas would exist if israel wasn't oppressing the palestinians?
if you believe "that's life" - then i'm not sure why you are upset when palestinians decide to fight back because "that's life" to them
all i've stated is that if you are illegally occupying someone's land (ie. settlers) they are open to retaliation ... i haven't mentioned anyone else ...
does this include a group of 7 year olds playing in the front yard of a house that sits on "occupied" land? and they open for retaliation? are they valid targets? do they deserve to die?
because I wouldnt go kill the rapist's 5 year old daughter while she is on her way to school. she has nothing to do with her father raping my family member.
yet, according to you, she is a valid target.
although you are right there ... in the case of a family kicking another family off their land ... it's not that simple ... i wish children weren't involved but unfortunately in war - they are the ones who are clearly suffering the most ... so, while we have the luxury of debating this online ... thousands of palestinian children are denied access to clean water every day by israeli authorities ...
Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
are you positive that if you come to steal my stereo i can't shoot you?
does this include a group of 7 year olds playing in the front yard of a house that sits on "occupied" land? and they open for retaliation? are they valid targets? do they deserve to die?
no they do not deserve to die - no children deserves to die ... but how many innocent 7 year old israelis have died in this conflict in the last decade? ... compare that to palestinian children ... this is not meant to justify specific actions rather just to highlight that in the grand scheme of things - they aren't the primary target of palestinian retaliation ...
who are the police in your anaolgy? Hamas? they do plenty.
hamas? ... uhhh no ... israel and the UN ...
ok maybe I'm confused by your anaolgy. if someone breaks into my house what would I do. my answer, go to the police. if someone steals a Palestinian's home, what do they do? go to the police - Hamas.
because I wouldnt go kill the rapist's 5 year old daughter while she is on her way to school. she has nothing to do with her father raping my family member.
yet, according to you, she is a valid target.
although you are right there ... in the case of a family kicking another family off their land ... it's not that simple ... i wish children weren't involved but unfortunately in war - they are the ones who are clearly suffering the most ... so, while we have the luxury of debating this online ... thousands of palestinian children are denied access to clean water every day by israeli authorities ...[/quote]
but it is that simple. there are many innocent children who live on land within post 1967 borders. according to you, they are valid targets. soul and I are firmly saying that its WRONG to target them.
does this include a group of 7 year olds playing in the front yard of a house that sits on "occupied" land? and they open for retaliation? are they valid targets? do they deserve to die?
no they do not deserve to die - no children deserves to die ... but how many innocent 7 year old israelis have died in this conflict in the last decade? ... compare that to palestinian children ... this is not meant to justify specific actions rather just to highlight that in the grand scheme of things - they aren't the primary target of palestinian retaliation ...
thats only because Hamas doesnt have the means to do so due to such tight Israeli security. the best they can do is homemade rockets which they have no problem shootly blindly into residential areas. do you honestly believe they would unload 100 scud missiles into the same areas given the chance?
and thats besides the point. you and a few others are saying children who live on occupied land are valid targets. and by saying they are valid targets you are saying they deserve to die. or at the least, support such.
Comments
not countries ... people ... settlers taking land from people ... it's a simple notion ... what do you do when no one will help ...
countries, people, settlers, whatever. you cant apply to what one person would do and apply it to everyone. which has been explained to you several times.
but yet you feel ALL civilians living in disputed land should be killed.
uhhh ... you haven't explained anything to me ... saying you don't like my question doesn't make it a relevant or irrelevant - it's just your opinion ...
try and walk one day in the shoe of someone who's lost everything by these illegal settlers ... do i want to see them dead? absolutely NOT but they are stealing and they have been told to leave but won't ... at some point - your resistance has to escalate beyone a letter campaign ...
Sorry, but one attack with 6 dead isn't going to catch America's eye. It would take time, and a consistent demonstration of Israel's brutality. Otherwise, it's like an alcoholic wanting a gold star for keeping clean a month and then falling off the wagon at the first sign of trouble. American sentiment won't change overnight.
We put that in there to demonstrate the absurdity of saying that someone coming onto your property gives you the right to kill anyone and everyone you want, regardless of their innocence or involvement in a crime.
is that not a right enjoyed by americans now? ... i'm not sure but i could swear that if i came to your house now and threatened to take it over - you could shoot me without consequence ...
it's not about killing anyone and everyone - it's about fighting back against your oppressors when no one else will help you ... again - has israel ever paid for the crimes they have committed which you have already said far outweigh those of the palestinians?
1. I firmly disagree. Stealing should not carry the death penalty. Thus, you're not justified in firing guns and rockets at women and children just because their husbands and fathers got the brilliant idea of dragging them to a settlement.
2. No. As both jlew and I have stated REPEATEDLY, Israel has not been playing fair and they should be held accountable for it. They should have from day one and I sincerely hope that some day soon America will stop turning a blind eye to their atrocities. It is not "all of a sudden." My belief that innocent civilians should not be targeted for violence precedes Palestinian retaliation. It applies to Israel as well as Hamas.
What difference does it make that Bundy got caught? I still deserve to be held accountable for MY murders, don't I? If Bundy hadn't been caught, am I allowed to go raping and murdering at will and then just say "hey, that guy is worse and you haven't caught HIM"? No, Israel has not suffered any consequences yet. That is a damn shame because they should. But that doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do the same acts that you want Israel held accountable for.
You would be very, very wrong about that.
No, Israel has not. And they should. But the fact that they haven't doesn't make it ok for someone else to do the same things. I can't kill someone and then say "hey, other people murder people and don't get caught or in trouble, so I'm allowed to do it."
you cant be serious?
Where's your line then? They stole the land, we can kill them. Ok. Where do you stop then. Your house? Can you kill someone for taking your car? Your wallet? Your ipod? Your place in line at the deli? When does it suddenly become not ok to execute someone for stealing?
first of all - your analogy is off ... i don't think you should be able to rape whoever you want cuz ted bundy did ... i am saying tho that if you have a family and you are seeing ted bundy rape all the women in it without consequence then you should be able to respond accordingly ...
secondly - we're not talking about petty theft ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter, one's ability to feed their family, it's about now having nothing to feed and house your family ... if you guys say you would do nothing then so be it ... i can respect that opinion - i happen to think otherwise ...
lastly - while you might believe that israel should pay for their crimes - the simple fact is they have not and yet you believe the palestinians should continue to not retaliate ...
http://www.reuters.com/article/politics ... 9620070327
as stated in my previous post - we are not talking about simply stealing some materialistic items ... we are talking about taking away one's shelter and ability to feed and shelter their family here ...
if there was any restitution or avenue of justice it would be one thing but there is not ... in the case of the settlers - where do they think these people are gonna go? ... do they care what the heck happens to them? ... not likely ... they are sending women and children to be homeless ...
i'm not sure where that line is - what i do know is that these settlers have passed it a while ago ... again - is death and destruction my wish? ... no ... but i support these people's efforts to try and get their land back and unfortunately - sit ins, letter campaigns and pleading with higher authorities has gotten them nothing ...
I'll explain YET AGAIN why your analogy isnt working.. we are not saying we would do nothing. why do you keep implying that? we would call the police and in the case of someone raping a family member, I would take matters into my own hands if I could. I would attack the single person who is responsible. not every person who thought it was a good idea or agreed or happened to know him in high school.
you are applying a single act of violence against a single person and applying it to entire races of people. again, pointless and irrelevant.
dont say we would do nothing again. its not true and I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.
First of all, it is no more off than your analogy. If someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo, you can't kill them. And in many countries, there are squatters' rights designed to PROTECT people that move into property they don't own... you can't kill them or throw them out, you have to contest ownership in court.
Second, no, we're not talking about petty theft. But where does it stop? If someone stole my car, I couldn't get to work, so I have no way to feed and house my family with no income. It's all a matter of degree. Where do you draw the line. By this logic, wouldn't I be justified in murdering or blowing up the bank that foreclosed on my home loan and evicted me? They left me with no way to shelter my family.
Lastly, once again, for the 4th time, as I have said a half dozen fucking times in this fucking thread that you seem utterly unable to read, comprehend, remember, or understand, yet I'll try it one more time and hope it gets through that thick skull and sticks this time... WHERE HAVE I SAID PALESTIN CANNOT RETALIATE? I have said, time and time and fucking time a-fucking-gain... they CAN. They just should not target unarmed civilians when they do it. I cannot believe it is so shocking and appalling to people here that somebody might suggest "hey guys, when we're fighting for our rights, maybe we should try to not kill unarmed women and kids." How awful of me I guess.
you cant be serious?[/quote]
http://www.reuters.com/article/politics ... 9620070327[/quote]
The reasonable use of lethal force will be allowed if an intruder is:
- Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes
- Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place
- Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.
this is above on beyond simply "threatening" someone.
my first question stated that the police have done nothing (which is the case here) ... so, saying you would just call the police is akin to doing nothing because that was already given to you in the initial question ... the question has ALWAYS been what would you do then?
secondly, you now admit to saying you would attack the single person responsible ... how is fighting against these settlers not doing just that?
The reasonable use of lethal force will be allowed if an intruder is:
- Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes
- Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place
- Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.
this is above on beyond simply "threatening" someone.[/quote]
uhhh ... unlawfully trying to enter a protected place ... it says you can shoot someone dead for trespassing ... how am i wrong?
To my knowledge, there's never been a sit in, and I certainly can't think of any sustained non-violent effort by Hamas. That's their prerogative though. It tooks years for the US non-violent resistance to gain equal rights for blacks, and that was after a number of disgusting atrocities. But the current situation, to the American public, looks like a war where all is fair. Until it becomes clear that this is a fascist, violent, brutally oppressive police state, American support for Israel will not waver. The more Hamas targets civilians for violence, the longer that will take. It's not fair, but that's life.
who are the police in your anaolgy? Hamas? they do plenty.
because I wouldnt go kill the rapist's 5 year old daughter while she is on her way to school. she has nothing to do with her father raping my family member.
yet, according to you, she is a valid target.
Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
uhhh ... everyone is repeating themselves here ... maybe you should see if YOU'VE actually paid attention before you make accusations ..
all i've stated is that if you are illegally occupying someone's land (ie. settlers) they are open to retaliation ... i haven't mentioned anyone else ...
back to your analogy ... if you can't afford to pay what you agreed to pay then that is your own consequence - it is not what is happening in gaza is it? ... feel free to come up with any analogous situation and i will respond accordingly ... stealing a stereo? ... no ... coming to my farm and sending my family onto the street and having no authority to turn to - yes ... i will fight back ...
By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense?
hamas wouldn't exist without the israeli oppression and settlements ... that's the point ... years upon years of resolutions trying to get them to stop but they didn't cuz of US support ... remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ... do you think hamas would exist if israel wasn't oppressing the palestinians?
if you believe "that's life" - then i'm not sure why you are upset when palestinians decide to fight back because "that's life" to them
does this include a group of 7 year olds playing in the front yard of a house that sits on "occupied" land? and they open for retaliation? are they valid targets? do they deserve to die?
hamas? ... uhhh no ... israel and the UN ...
although you are right there ... in the case of a family kicking another family off their land ... it's not that simple ... i wish children weren't involved but unfortunately in war - they are the ones who are clearly suffering the most ... so, while we have the luxury of debating this online ... thousands of palestinian children are denied access to clean water every day by israeli authorities ...
are you positive that if you come to steal my stereo i can't shoot you?
no they do not deserve to die - no children deserves to die ... but how many innocent 7 year old israelis have died in this conflict in the last decade? ... compare that to palestinian children ... this is not meant to justify specific actions rather just to highlight that in the grand scheme of things - they aren't the primary target of palestinian retaliation ...
ok maybe I'm confused by your anaolgy. if someone breaks into my house what would I do. my answer, go to the police. if someone steals a Palestinian's home, what do they do? go to the police - Hamas.
right?
although you are right there ... in the case of a family kicking another family off their land ... it's not that simple ... i wish children weren't involved but unfortunately in war - they are the ones who are clearly suffering the most ... so, while we have the luxury of debating this online ... thousands of palestinian children are denied access to clean water every day by israeli authorities ...[/quote]
but it is that simple. there are many innocent children who live on land within post 1967 borders. according to you, they are valid targets. soul and I are firmly saying that its WRONG to target them.
thats only because Hamas doesnt have the means to do so due to such tight Israeli security. the best they can do is homemade rockets which they have no problem shootly blindly into residential areas. do you honestly believe they would unload 100 scud missiles into the same areas given the chance?
and thats besides the point. you and a few others are saying children who live on occupied land are valid targets. and by saying they are valid targets you are saying they deserve to die. or at the least, support such.