jlew - why do you even post on these threads? it seems to only cause you grief and it is clear you have made no headway in convincing others that this problem is 50/50 in blame ...
in any case - like i've said - world opinion is slowly shifting on this matter ... before all we saw were news reports of suicide bombings and terrorist hijackings ... now, we see documentaries on the oppression and the security checkpoints and bulldozers ... more and more jews are speaking out ... i do believe peace is possible in jerusalem - hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later ...
You speak like you have some kind of authority. I know Palestinians first hand and even the 10 year old kids will tell you to your face they are ready to die for their country. The fact that you cannot comprehend that doesn't mean it is wrong. It only means you cannot comprehend that.
Have you seen the little boys that run in front of tanks and throw rocks at them? No one forces them to do that. When a population is subjected to the worst kind of treatment even the children will fight. Just because you've lived an Americana lifestyle and cannot understand where they are coming from does not mean you are right.
kids are brainwashed into thinking its ok to kill themselves. you think its right, i think its wrong. end of story.
jlew - why do you even post on these threads? it seems to only cause you grief and it is clear you have made no headway in convincing others that this problem is 50/50 in blame ...
I'm not even saying its 50/50. all I'm saying is the Hamas is part of the problem for targeting and killing Israeli civilians. there are (shockingly) too many people here who believe thats perfectly acceptable. I don't.
in any case - like i've said - world opinion is slowly shifting on this matter ... before all we saw were news reports of suicide bombings and terrorist hijackings ... now, we see documentaries on the oppression and the security checkpoints and bulldozers ... more and more jews are speaking out ... i do believe peace is possible in jerusalem - hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later ...
I agree public perception is changing. but I disagree peace can or will happen while Hamas is in power as well as the current Israeli government.
do you believe the American southwest rightfully belongs to native Indians? a yes or no will suffice.
I'll try to answer this one, though the subject would probably be better served in another thread.
There were many treaties signed at the turn of the 19th Century - every one of which was broken by the white settlers. As far as I'm aware there are descendants of the Apache and Navajo tribes, and others in that area who have found that they still possess legal entitlement to the land, as some of these treaties still carry some weight in their favour. I doubt very much that they will stake a claim to the whole of the American Southwest, just the areas which are of religious and historical significance to them.
Just as is the case with the Palestinians, they have already compromised enough - they've had their country stolen from them by a foreign invader, and been subjected to the level of second class citizens ever since. They are now seeking a portion of what ostensibly belongs to them in law. They still have legal rights.
The Palestinians have stated that they will accept a truce along the June 1967 border, in line with the rest of the world - excluding the U.S. What the natives of the American South West are seeking to claim is another issue. Maybe you can look into that for us?
Hamas is part of the PROBLEM because.....they deliberately target and kill Israeli civilians.
And what does Hamas targeting civilians have to do with the illegal occupation?
nothing. I didnt say it did.
the problem with you is, you dont see targeting and killing Israeli civilians part of the problem. so you keep diverting my comments to something TOTALLY different.
Targeting and killing Israelis has become part of the problem. Yes. Of course it is. But that seems to overshadow the original problem. Why are they even doing that?
And lets not kid ourselves here. Hamas is not the only Israeli target. The target is the same target it has been for 60 years. Ordinary Palestinian people who have first suffered the indignity of having their land stolen from them, then endured 60 years of appalling conditions within Palestine or exile outside it. Sixty years of physical and psychological violence and oppression.
Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated areas, there are 4,000 people per square kilometre and not one of them can escape. Imagine living like that. To keep on topic, that video that _outlaw posted was heart breaking. I said it before and i'll say it again, Israel had absolutely no right denying that little boys basic right of treatment. He wasn't at war with them, he never pointed a gun at them, he never fired rockets at them. His crime? He was a child born in Gaza.
If Israel chooses to continue punishing a whole nation of people for the actions of a few, the conflict will never end. Instead, Israel should defuse the extremism by working to build the Palestinian economy. They need to reopen Gaza borders and not only allow aid from other countries to go to Gaza, but also work to provide aid on their own. Instead of working to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas, they need to work to build the infrastructure of Gaza. If Israel can improve the lives of Palestinians, Hamas and other extremist groups will be helpless to do anything but watch as their support dwindles.
Give them their land back. Please. And stop violating their basic human rights. That's a start.
I agree public perception is changing. but I disagree peace can or will happen while Hamas is in power as well as the current Israeli government.
the problem is that there is no hope for peace without hamas ... hamas is the only thing stopping the israelis from building settlements everywhere and truly eliminating the palestinians from their land ... remember that hamas didn't exist until israel started to do things they weren't supposed to ... in appealing to the world way back when - we had a plethora of UN resolutions against the state of israel - none of which ever made it thanks to a permanent security veto by the US ... so, lacking help from the international community - this is what you get ... we've seen what israel is prepared to do if there is no resistance ...
you somehow tried to justify a Hamas militant holding a child while running from gunfire. that is whats pathetic.
Haha you keep trying to divert the facts. You clearly did a quick search on youtube and posted the first links to support a biased argument. Then got owned.
Then you are trying to make me feel guilty by saying I am supporting a Hamas militant haha. Nice try. My argument is that what you are trying to describe the video as is BULLSHIT. I am not supporting a Hamas militant. You also have no proof it is actually a Hamas militant anyway.
To summarise, your links are bullshit. You could of posted other negative things about Hamas which I would of agreed with you on but you were too excited to start defending israel. Pathetic.
kids are brainwashed into thinking its ok to kill themselves. you think its right, i think its wrong. end of story.
The kids are brainwashed. Lovely. Are you a sociologist now? Nice try once again I never said it was right. You can keep trying to support your arguments with bullshit. I guess you learnt from the best bullshitters around... The hasbara.
I agree public perception is changing. but I disagree peace can or will happen while Hamas is in power as well as the current Israeli government.
the problem is that there is no hope for peace without hamas ... hamas is the only thing stopping the israelis from building settlements everywhere and truly eliminating the palestinians from their land ... remember that hamas didn't exist until israel started to do things they weren't supposed to ... in appealing to the world way back when - we had a plethora of UN resolutions against the state of israel - none of which ever made it thanks to a permanent security veto by the US ... so, lacking help from the international community - this is what you get ... we've seen what israel is prepared to do if there is no resistance ...
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
you somehow tried to justify a Hamas militant holding a child while running from gunfire. that is whats pathetic.
Haha you keep trying to divert the facts. You clearly did a quick search on youtube and posted the first links to support a biased argument. Then got owned.
Then you are trying to make me feel guilty by saying I am supporting a Hamas militant haha. Nice try. My argument is that what you are trying to describe the video as is BULLSHIT. I am not supporting a Hamas militant. You also have no proof it is actually a Hamas militant anyway.
To summarise, your links are bullshit. You could of posted other negative things about Hamas which I would of agreed with you on but you were too excited to start defending israel. Pathetic.
but the video isnt bullshit. its clearly shows a Palestinian militant (or Hamas or whatever you want to call him) grabbing a child and running away from gunfire. it speaks for itself.
The kids are brainwashed. Lovely. Are you a sociologist now? Nice try once again I never said it was right. You can keep trying to support your arguments with bullshit. I guess you learnt from the best bullshitters around... The hasbara.
yes I am. I also have common sense. 6 year olds dont decide for themselves thats its ok to kill themselves to support a resistance. they are taught that.
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
The Palestinian authority is a fucking joke. The following articles shed some truth on the matter:
'...Israel has never liked Palestinian moderates, for the simple reason that concessions might have to be made to them. To avoid being drawn into negotiations, it has always preferred Palestinian radicals - and when they were not there it has done everything it could to create them.
'How can you negotiate with someone who wants to kill you?' is a familiar Israeli refrain.
The war on Gaza has confirmed Israel's visceral rejection of any expression of Palestinian nationalism. It will kill to prevent it, as sixty years of wars, assassinations and massacres testify. Consciously or not, Israeli leaders seem to fear that any recognition of Palestinian aspirations undermines the legitimacy of their own national enterprise.
It may be that the war was launched precisely because Hamas has recently shown signs of moderation. Its key spokesmen - including Khaled Mish'al, head of its political bureau - have expressed their readiness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. To Israel's dismay, they have begun to distance themselves from the movement's 1987 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction.
The Qassam rockets were a great embarrassment to the Israeli government. It was unable to stop them except by agreeing a truce. The rockets angered an Israeli population notoriously blind to any suffering but its own. But, in truth, the rockets were no more than highly irritating pin-pricks. The figures speak for themselves. Fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In the same period Israel, displaying its usual astonishing indifference to Arab life, has killed some 2,000 Palestinians. Israeli state terror has been incomparably more lethal than anything Hamas could manage. The death toll continues to mount.
Israel never liked the truce with Hamas and chose not to respect its terms. Instead of easing the blockade on Gaza -- as it was meant to do -- it tightened it, reducing the crowded, suffering Strip to abject misery. And it unilaterally broke the truce by an armed incursion on 4 November, which killed several Hamas men. In retrospect, this action must be seen as a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas into a violent response, and thus provide Israel with a casus belli.
Stopping the rockets fired by Hamas into the Negev was indeed only one of several reasons Israel went to war, and by no means the most important one. If anything, the rockets have provided Israel with a pretext for launching a war with far wider aims.
The principal aim of Israel's 'all-out war' on Hamas is to reaffirm the military supremacy over all its neighbours which the Jewish state has enjoyed since its creation in 1948. The war is therefore meant as a warning to Hizballah in Lebanon, as well as to Syria and Iran -- and indeed to anyone who might dare challenge Israel's predominance -- that they, too, could face the sort of devastating punishment Gaza is now enduring.
Deterrence - one-sided, Israel-only deterrence - lies at the heart of Israel's security doctrine. It wants total freedom to hit, and never to be hit back. It relies on brute force to protect itself, and rejects any form of mutual deterrence. It is totally opposed to a regional balance of power which might force it to moderate its actions...'
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."
but the video isnt bullshit. its clearly shows a Palestinian militant (or Hamas or whatever you want to call him) grabbing a child and running away from gunfire. it speaks for itself.
You just said it yourself "grabbing a child and running away from gunfire". So the guy runs towards gunfire to grab a child and drag him away from the gunfire. Thats your definition of human shield? You forget to mention that the militant's top half is completely prone to a bullet. I bet if an American soldier was in that video you would be describing what a hero he was.. how he saved that child haha.
yes I am. I also have common sense. 6 year olds dont decide for themselves thats its ok to kill themselves to support a resistance. they are taught that.
You don't need to teach a kid anything if he's seen his mother or father shot dead by an IDF soldier for no reason.. or seen his home bulldozed to the ground for no reason.. or seen his classmates get killed by a bomb.. or seen his parents belittled everyday for years every time they want to pass a checkpoint to go to work or home.. or NOT seen his father the night an IDF soldier refused to let him pass a checkpoint because he felt like it.. Kids are like a sponge they don't need to be taught when things are right in front of their eyes.
'...Israel has never liked Palestinian moderates, for the simple reason that concessions might have to be made to them. To avoid being drawn into negotiations, it has always preferred Palestinian radicals - and when they were not there it has done everything it could to create them.
'How can you negotiate with someone who wants to kill you?' is a familiar Israeli refrain.
The war on Gaza has confirmed Israel's visceral rejection of any expression of Palestinian nationalism. It will kill to prevent it, as sixty years of wars, assassinations and massacres testify. Consciously or not, Israeli leaders seem to fear that any recognition of Palestinian aspirations undermines the legitimacy of their own national enterprise.
It may be that the war was launched precisely because Hamas has recently shown signs of moderation. Its key spokesmen - including Khaled Mish'al, head of its political bureau - have expressed their readiness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. To Israel's dismay, they have begun to distance themselves from the movement's 1987 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction.
The Qassam rockets were a great embarrassment to the Israeli government. It was unable to stop them except by agreeing a truce. The rockets angered an Israeli population notoriously blind to any suffering but its own. But, in truth, the rockets were no more than highly irritating pin-pricks. The figures speak for themselves. Fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In the same period Israel, displaying its usual astonishing indifference to Arab life, has killed some 2,000 Palestinians. Israeli state terror has been incomparably more lethal than anything Hamas could manage. The death toll continues to mount.
Israel never liked the truce with Hamas and chose not to respect its terms. Instead of easing the blockade on Gaza -- as it was meant to do -- it tightened it, reducing the crowded, suffering Strip to abject misery. And it unilaterally broke the truce by an armed incursion on 4 November, which killed several Hamas men. In retrospect, this action must be seen as a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas into a violent response, and thus provide Israel with a casus belli.
Stopping the rockets fired by Hamas into the Negev was indeed only one of several reasons Israel went to war, and by no means the most important one. If anything, the rockets have provided Israel with a pretext for launching a war with far wider aims.
The principal aim of Israel's 'all-out war' on Hamas is to reaffirm the military supremacy over all its neighbours which the Jewish state has enjoyed since its creation in 1948. The war is therefore meant as a warning to Hizballah in Lebanon, as well as to Syria and Iran -- and indeed to anyone who might dare challenge Israel's predominance -- that they, too, could face the sort of devastating punishment Gaza is now enduring.
Deterrence - one-sided, Israel-only deterrence - lies at the heart of Israel's security doctrine. It wants total freedom to hit, and never to be hit back. It relies on brute force to protect itself, and rejects any form of mutual deterrence. It is totally opposed to a regional balance of power which might force it to moderate its actions...'
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."
People forget that the Israeli's went on assassination sprees in the 70's killing off a lot of the Palestinian moderates that would have had a chance in ruling Palestine peacefully. They forget that in the 80's Hamas developed because of Israel and even since those early days HAMAS WAS IN CONTACT WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. The israelis actually helped Hamas get more and more power.
Keep fighting the good fight. Always good to read the links you post.
“It’s safer to come to an Islamic place, where you can find a doctor who’s not only a good dentist, but a good Muslim,” said Najwa abu Mustafa, 24, who sat one recent afternoon in the sunny waiting room with several other women, shrouded in black veils but for the thin openings around their eyes. “You’re putting yourself in God’s hands.”
The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip’s biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas.
The militant group’s recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah.
The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks.
Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group’s public support.
“Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities – where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more,” said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. “But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization.”
Over the last two decades, several large Islamic charities have come to be closely associated with Hamas, including the Mujamma Islami network, Al Salah Society, the Islamic Center and the Islamic University of Gaza. But the International Crisis Group said there was little “substantial evidence” that Islamic welfare institutions “systematically divert” funds to support terrorist activity.
“Hamas doesn’t have much in the way of resources, but they have a big network of charity working in order to reduce the suffering of the Palestinian people,” said Sami abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the group in Gaza. “People feel the credibility of Hamas, and its ability to make change through the charity organizations that it runs.”
In Gaza, Al Salah Society’s school for 1,000 orphans and other youngsters in the teeming town of Deir al Balah stands in sharp contrast to the crumbling concrete and dusty streets around it, a fenced-in oasis of palms and neat classrooms.
“Muslims are the best nation created in the world,” says a banner hanging outside the school, next to another that says, “Those who learn more earn a higher degree in paradise.”
Al Salah’s director, Ahmad Kurd, was recently elected mayor of Deir al Balah, and Hamas scooped up two of the region’s three parliamentary seats in the January elections.
“In 1994 there was an Israeli operation which destroyed several Palestinian houses [of families of suspected militants] in one of the poorest neighborhoods,” Kurd said. “I had to meet with the Israeli commander, and he asked me, ‘Why are you supporting and helping those victims who lost their homes?’
“I told him, ‘The Red Crescent is helping, the Churches United organization also gives some help to them, the Catholic Relief organization, the United Nations. And Al Salah Society is there as well. Is it forbidden?’ And he was not able to respond to that.”
When Israeli forces launched a major incursion into the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah in 2004, leaving nearly 1,500 residents homeless, Al Salah sent fundraisers with megaphones down the streets, going door to door, standing on street corners and outside the mosques. Women were asked to drop their gold necklaces into the collection boxes. Poor families gave sacks of rice. Al Salah collected $1 million worth of food, valuables and cash in Gaza, one of the poorest places in the Middle East.
Yet Kurd said it would be a mistake to think Hamas won the votes because of its charity work.
“The people are getting a lot more money from America, from the international community. The international donors distributed perhaps $6 billion in the last 10 years. The Islamic charity organizations didn’t pay out 1% of that money,” he said.
Palestinians associate U.S. aid with Washington’s support for Israel, he said. “The Palestinian feels, ‘You give me that money, and you kill me. You give me money, and you destroy my house. You give me money, and you send planes to kill our kids.’ ”
Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, said international aid had focused on public works projects but had done little to provide direct help to the poor, or to those families that have lost a breadwinner in the conflict with Israel.
“Unfortunately, the Western side has donated for projects like cleaning the streets or painting the walls, but they didn’t give anything for the care of orphans,” he said. Some of the most controversial programs operated by the Muslim charities provide stipends, housing and direct financial aid to the families of suicide bombers.
In the narrow alleyways of the sprawling refugee camp at Deir al Balah, hundreds of families get cash payments of $40 to $100 a month from Mujamma Islami and Al Salah, along with meat, beans, flour and eggs.
“We would be completely destitute without this help,” said Ataf Ostaz, 41, who has nine children and whose husband died of a stroke two years ago. “Naturally, we gave our votes to Hamas, because they are the ones who touch our need.”
The unlikely mix of services offered at Al Quds Clinic – pediatrics, maternal healthcare, orthodontics and post-surgical care – is no accident. Mujamma Islami, which opened the center in October 2002, conducted a survey of the clinics already operating in Khan Yunis.
“We did studies and reached the decision that some services are not good enough in government hospitals, and so we decided to offer these services ourselves,” said clinic director Atiya Abumoaamar. “The point is that the public hospitals are very, very cheap, so where we compete with them is not in prices, but in quality.”
At the same time, fees generally are substantially lower than those at private clinics.
Caseloads now reach up to 400 patients a month, and if there is a profit at the end of the month, Abumoaamar splits it with doctors and office staff. Otherwise, they work without salary as volunteers. The effort has been judged such a success that two more clinics are opening soon, with funding from the Saudi-based World Assembly of Muslim Youth.
“If the international community will just give it a chance and will not isolate it, if donors don’t freeze the funds, if the Arab countries help make some solution, I guarantee that Hamas will do a better job of running this society,” Abumoaamar said.
But some Palestinians point out that there is a big difference between operating schools and clinics and running a government for 3 million people.
“The Palestinian Authority has to reach everyone, and in a situation of closures, unemployment reaching unprecedented figures, and in an environment in which you are constantly being undermined, these services are obligatory,” said Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights in Gaza City.
“Hamas has done its homework. Over the years, they have established very good social services, they have the maximum use of the mosque,” he said. “And it will be good to have Hamas in the government. Welcome! But think of the situation.
“With Abu Mazen [current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], the international community transferred only $350 million of the $1 billion they were supposed to send for 2005. This is with the good guys in charge, not the terrorists!” he said. “Imagine how things will be with Hamas.”"
but the video isnt bullshit. its clearly shows a Palestinian militant (or Hamas or whatever you want to call him) grabbing a child and running away from gunfire. it speaks for itself.
You just said it yourself "grabbing a child and running away from gunfire". So the guy runs towards gunfire to grab a child and drag him away from the gunfire. Thats your definition of human shield? You forget to mention that the militant's top half is completely prone to a bullet. I bet if an American soldier was in that video you would be describing what a hero he was.. how he saved that child haha.
yes I am. I also have common sense. 6 year olds dont decide for themselves thats its ok to kill themselves to support a resistance. they are taught that.
You don't need to teach a kid anything if he's seen his mother or father shot dead by an IDF soldier for no reason.. or seen his home bulldozed to the ground for no reason.. or seen his classmates get killed by a bomb.. or seen his parents belittled everyday for years every time they want to pass a checkpoint to go to work or home.. or NOT seen his father the night an IDF soldier refused to let him pass a checkpoint because he felt like it.. Kids are like a sponge they don't need to be taught when things are right in front of their eyes.
as long as you don't support the use of children as human shields on either side, then we agree. and we'll agree to disagree that children decide for themselves that its a good thing to kill themselves to support resistance. I dont care what they've been through. deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself to be detonated it is something that is taught and encouraged.
UN Gaza inquiry 'to proceed despite Israel'
Wednesday, 20 May 2009
'A UN inquiry into possible war crimes in Gaza will go ahead even if Israel does not co-operate, says Richard Goldstone, who leads the inquiry team.
Mr Goldstone said he was "disappointed" Israel had given no positive response, and said his team would enter Gaza via Egypt if Israel refused them visas.
The UN wants to investigate whether Israel and Hamas committed war crimes during the January conflict in Gaza.
Israel accuses the UN branch carrying out the mission of bias against it.
The UN Human Rights Council has been accused of singling out Israel unfairly, and is viewed by some as having less credibility than other parts of the UN.
But correspondents say the selection of Mr Goldstone, a respected South African war crimes prosecutor who is also Jewish, as head of the inquiry has given it greater clout.
Mr Goldstone said his team had hoped to visit southern Israeli towns which have suffered Palestinian rocket fire , before entering Gaza from Israel.
But if Israel failed to allow the investigators passage, entering through the Rafah crossing on the Egypt-Gaza border would be a "second choice".
He said that after talks with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, the team had decided to hold a series of public hearings.
If these could take place in the Middle East "so much the better", but if not they would be held in Geneva, with witnesses flown in or testifying via video link, he said.
Most Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are unable to leave because of Israel's blockade on the territory.
Israel has given no official response to the inquiry team, but media reports have suggested it does not plan to co-operate.
Israeli ambassador in Geneva Leshno Yaar told Associated Press earlier that the council treats Israel "unfairly" and that "justice cannot be the outcome of this mission".
Several investigations into alleged violations of international law during Israel's 22-day operation in Gaza, which ended on 18 January, have now reported back.
Mr Ban has requested more than $11m (£7m) compensation from Israel for damage to UN property in Gaza, after a limited UN inquiry accused Israel of targeting known civilian shelters and providing untrue statements to justify actions in which civilians were killed.
The report found Israel to blame in six out of nine incidents when death or injury were caused to people sheltering at UN property and UN buildings were damaged.
The Israeli military has concluded in an internal investigation that its troops fought lawfully, although errors did take place, such as the deaths of 21 people in a wrongly targeted house.
Meanwhile, a fact-finding team commissioned by the Arab League said there was sufficient evidence for the Israeli military to be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that "the Israeli political leadership was also responsible for such crimes".
It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
About 1,300 Palestinians died in the January conflict. Israeli and Palestinian estimates differ on the numbers of civilian casualties.
Ten Israeli soldiers were killed, including four by friendly fire, and three Israel civilians died in rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
The Palestinian authority is a fucking joke. The following articles sheds some truth on the matter:
'...Israel has never liked Palestinian moderates, for the simple reason that concessions might have to be made to them. To avoid being drawn into negotiations, it has always preferred Palestinian radicals - and when they were not there it has done everything it could to create them.
'How can you negotiate with someone who wants to kill you?' is a familiar Israeli refrain.
The war on Gaza has confirmed Israel's visceral rejection of any expression of Palestinian nationalism. It will kill to prevent it, as sixty years of wars, assassinations and massacres testify. Consciously or not, Israeli leaders seem to fear that any recognition of Palestinian aspirations undermines the legitimacy of their own national enterprise.
It may be that the war was launched precisely because Hamas has recently shown signs of moderation. Its key spokesmen - including Khaled Mish'al, head of its political bureau - have expressed their readiness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. To Israel's dismay, they have begun to distance themselves from the movement's 1987 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction.
The Qassam rockets were a great embarrassment to the Israeli government. It was unable to stop them except by agreeing a truce. The rockets angered an Israeli population notoriously blind to any suffering but its own. But, in truth, the rockets were no more than highly irritating pin-pricks. The figures speak for themselves. Fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In the same period Israel, displaying its usual astonishing indifference to Arab life, has killed some 2,000 Palestinians. Israeli state terror has been incomparably more lethal than anything Hamas could manage. The death toll continues to mount.
Israel never liked the truce with Hamas and chose not to respect its terms. Instead of easing the blockade on Gaza -- as it was meant to do -- it tightened it, reducing the crowded, suffering Strip to abject misery. And it unilaterally broke the truce by an armed incursion on 4 November, which killed several Hamas men. In retrospect, this action must be seen as a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas into a violent response, and thus provide Israel with a casus belli.
Stopping the rockets fired by Hamas into the Negev was indeed only one of several reasons Israel went to war, and by no means the most important one. If anything, the rockets have provided Israel with a pretext for launching a war with far wider aims.
The principal aim of Israel's 'all-out war' on Hamas is to reaffirm the military supremacy over all its neighbours which the Jewish state has enjoyed since its creation in 1948. The war is therefore meant as a warning to Hizballah in Lebanon, as well as to Syria and Iran -- and indeed to anyone who might dare challenge Israel's predominance -- that they, too, could face the sort of devastating punishment Gaza is now enduring.
Deterrence - one-sided, Israel-only deterrence - lies at the heart of Israel's security doctrine. It wants total freedom to hit, and never to be hit back. It relies on brute force to protect itself, and rejects any form of mutual deterrence. It is totally opposed to a regional balance of power which might force it to moderate its actions...'
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."
Huh? That article doesn't even mention the Palestinian authority, just says that Israel likes Hamas because it justifies its violence, which is exactly the point that jlew made?
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
i agree with you for the most part in that they are a convenient excuse however back to my previous post - the opinions have been changing ... remember the PLO used to be what hamas was ... now they are considered the moderate voice? ... times and opinions change
do you consider this a war crime? a simple yes or no will suffice.
According to the definition of war crime, probably. Although the rockets largely fell in and around the area of Sderot. Sderot is occupied Palestinian land and legally belongs to the Palestinians. The Israeli's have no right to be there. If the rocket attacks make life there uncomfortable for them then they can simply fuck off back to America or Israel.
Although only 3 Israeli civilians were killed by Hamas' rockets, compared with an estimated 900 Palestinian civilians.
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
The Palestinian authority is a fucking joke. The following articles sheds some truth on the matter:
'...Israel has never liked Palestinian moderates, for the simple reason that concessions might have to be made to them. To avoid being drawn into negotiations, it has always preferred Palestinian radicals - and when they were not there it has done everything it could to create them.
'How can you negotiate with someone who wants to kill you?' is a familiar Israeli refrain.
The war on Gaza has confirmed Israel's visceral rejection of any expression of Palestinian nationalism. It will kill to prevent it, as sixty years of wars, assassinations and massacres testify. Consciously or not, Israeli leaders seem to fear that any recognition of Palestinian aspirations undermines the legitimacy of their own national enterprise.
It may be that the war was launched precisely because Hamas has recently shown signs of moderation. Its key spokesmen - including Khaled Mish'al, head of its political bureau - have expressed their readiness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. To Israel's dismay, they have begun to distance themselves from the movement's 1987 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction.
The Qassam rockets were a great embarrassment to the Israeli government. It was unable to stop them except by agreeing a truce. The rockets angered an Israeli population notoriously blind to any suffering but its own. But, in truth, the rockets were no more than highly irritating pin-pricks. The figures speak for themselves. Fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In the same period Israel, displaying its usual astonishing indifference to Arab life, has killed some 2,000 Palestinians. Israeli state terror has been incomparably more lethal than anything Hamas could manage. The death toll continues to mount.
Israel never liked the truce with Hamas and chose not to respect its terms. Instead of easing the blockade on Gaza -- as it was meant to do -- it tightened it, reducing the crowded, suffering Strip to abject misery. And it unilaterally broke the truce by an armed incursion on 4 November, which killed several Hamas men. In retrospect, this action must be seen as a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas into a violent response, and thus provide Israel with a casus belli.
Stopping the rockets fired by Hamas into the Negev was indeed only one of several reasons Israel went to war, and by no means the most important one. If anything, the rockets have provided Israel with a pretext for launching a war with far wider aims.
The principal aim of Israel's 'all-out war' on Hamas is to reaffirm the military supremacy over all its neighbours which the Jewish state has enjoyed since its creation in 1948. The war is therefore meant as a warning to Hizballah in Lebanon, as well as to Syria and Iran -- and indeed to anyone who might dare challenge Israel's predominance -- that they, too, could face the sort of devastating punishment Gaza is now enduring.
Deterrence - one-sided, Israel-only deterrence - lies at the heart of Israel's security doctrine. It wants total freedom to hit, and never to be hit back. It relies on brute force to protect itself, and rejects any form of mutual deterrence. It is totally opposed to a regional balance of power which might force it to moderate its actions...'
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."
Huh? That article doesn't even mention the Palestinian authority, just says that Israel likes Hamas because it justifies its violence, which is exactly the point that jlew made?
'Palestinian moderates' = Palestinian Authority? Get it?
And Jlew has never made the point that Israel likes Hamas. Once again you resort to putting words in other peoples mouths that weren't there to begin with, because you have no argument.
Since you love talking about what's justified, here's a simple yes or no question for you:
Is it ok for Hamas to target civilians?
Let me get this right...Israel recently massacred over 900 Palestinian civilians in Gaza, and you're asking me if I think it's o.k for Palestinians to attack Israeli civilians?
I'll go with Gandhi on this one. I'll say that the Palestinians have every right to hit back in retaliation.
'...Over the brow of the hill walk four masked men holding baseball bats. To the right of the screen, in the foreground, stands a 58-year-old Palestinian woman.
Thamam al-Nawaja has been herding her goats close to the Jewish settlement of Susia, near Hebron in the southern West Bank.
Within a few seconds, she, along with her 70-year-old husband and one of her nephews, will be beaten up.
As the first blows land, the woman filming - the daughter-in-law of the elderly couple - drops the camera and runs for help.
Mrs Nawaja spent three days in hospital after the attack...'
'On 15 November 2008, around 9:00 a.m., approximately fifteen masked Israeli settlers from the illegal outpost of Havat Ma'on attacked three Palestinian shepherds who were grazing their flocks in a valley south of the outpost. The settlers came running down from a ridge above the shepherds, hurling rocks. The shepherds were able to get their flocks away before the rocks injured them.
During the incident, the settlers were able to steal two of the shepherds' donkeys. The settlers killed one donkey with a knife wound in the chest area. They slashed another across the throat, but the donkey survived.
Settlers also hit two internationals from Christian Peacemaker Teams—who were accompanying the shepherds—with large rocks. One CPTer sustained minor injuries...'
Israeli settlers attack farmers near Qalqiliya http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?op ... s&ID=37921
19 / 05 / 2009
'Israeli settlers set fire to farmland and assaulted Palestinian farmers and an Israeli activist in two villages east of the West Bank city of Qalqiliya on Tuesday.
Ma’an’s correspondent reports that large areas of wheat fields and olive groves went up in flames in the villages of Jit and Far’ata before firefighters arrived and extinguished the blaze.
Local residents said Israeli soldiers also attacked farmers, leaving many of them bruised among them Hani Arman, Othman As-Sadda, Ahmad Arman, Zakariyya As-Sadda, and an Israeli activist with the organization Rabbis for Human rights.
Soldiers also seized 15-year-old Murad Yamin.
According to farmers, fights erupted after settlers from the Gilad outpost attacked a rally in the area protesting previous settler attacks and Israeli Civil Administration’s claims that farmers do not own their land in spite of documents proving ownership.'
'Human right groups have voiced concern about the growing number of Israeli settlers attack on Palestinians.
Armed Israeli settlers have attacked a village in the southern West Bank, inflicting considerable damage on Palestinian residential and agricultural property.
Palestinian sources say a group of twenty Israeli settlers from Beit Ein attacked Beit Safa, a nearby Palestinian village, late Thursday and opened fire on Palestinian homes.
The attackers also set ablaze land under cultivation in the region.
Moments later Israeli soldiers rushed into the area to disperse the crowd and stop the violence, but there were no reports of arrests.
Israeli settlers, who are considered illegal under international law, frequently attack Palestinians in the West Bank.
Beit Ein -- with nearly 1,000 residents -- is known as one of the most radical settlements in the occupied West Bank.'
A group of Israeli settlers attacked on Thursday Palestinian homes located at the village of Khirbit Um-alkher near the southern West Bank city of Hebron.
'The villagers said that the settlers came from the nearby Karmel Settlement. They added that at least 15 armed settlers ransacked and damaged three homes and killed two sheep dogs.
The villagers rushed to stop the settlers; the Israeli military and police arrived and escorted the settlers out of the village.
The village is the home of 170 farmers, the setters attack them frequently in an attempt to force them out of their homes and land to expand the settlement, the villagers told media.'
'A group of Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance in the old city of Hebron Saturday afternoon, causing damage to the vehicle.
According to Abed Al-Haleem Al-Ja'afra, the Head of Ambulance and Emergency Services for the Red Crescent, the ambulance was moving a patient from the Hebron governmental hospital to her home on Ash-Shuhada Street when the attack occurred. The Israeli army had given permission for the ambulance to drive on Ash-Shuhada Street, which is normally closed to all Palestinian cars and traffic.
As the ambulance arrived to the Al- Qarantina area, the soldiers opened the checkpoint, allowing the vehicle into the area where it was then attacked by settlers who threw stones at the vehicle.
"The vehicle was ambushed, and the soldiers turned a blind eye to the incident, making no move to stop the settlers from throwing stones," Al-Ja'afra said.
Being unable to move forward and take the patient safely to her home, the ambulance tried to back out of the street, but soldiers would not open the checkpoint for several minutes.
The patient was eventually returned to the emergency ward at Hebron governmental hospital, and awaits approval from Israeli authorities as to when she will safely be able to return home.'
It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
do you consider this a war crime? a simple yes or no will suffice.
Amazing that out of the whole article, which discusses Israel's massacre of 1,300 Palestinians you choose to focus your attention on the fact the 3 Israeli's were killed. I think this speaks volumes about you.
'Palestinian moderates' = Palestinian Authority? Get it?
And Jlew has never made the point that Israel likes Hamas. Once again you resort to putting words in other peoples mouths that weren't there to begin with, because you have no argument.
thats actually the EXACT point I was making here..
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
and yet again you are accusing others of putting words in peoples mouth? this is getting beyond absurd. thats pretty much the only thing you have been doing.
It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
do you consider this a war crime? a simple yes or no will suffice.
Amazing that out of the whole article, which discusses Israel's massacre of 1,300 Palestinians you choose to focus your attention on the fact the 3 Israeli's were killed. I think this speaks volumes about you.
it does? ok let me try again. the massarce of 1300 Palastinians is a disgusting and horrible act. I sincerely hope there are generals or leaders in charge who get put in jail for war crimes for such acts.
Comments
in any case - like i've said - world opinion is slowly shifting on this matter ... before all we saw were news reports of suicide bombings and terrorist hijackings ... now, we see documentaries on the oppression and the security checkpoints and bulldozers ... more and more jews are speaking out ... i do believe peace is possible in jerusalem - hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later ...
you somehow tried to justify a Hamas militant holding a child while running from gunfire. that is whats pathetic.
kids are brainwashed into thinking its ok to kill themselves. you think its right, i think its wrong. end of story.
I'm not even saying its 50/50. all I'm saying is the Hamas is part of the problem for targeting and killing Israeli civilians. there are (shockingly) too many people here who believe thats perfectly acceptable. I don't.
I agree public perception is changing. but I disagree peace can or will happen while Hamas is in power as well as the current Israeli government.
I'll try to answer this one, though the subject would probably be better served in another thread.
There were many treaties signed at the turn of the 19th Century - every one of which was broken by the white settlers. As far as I'm aware there are descendants of the Apache and Navajo tribes, and others in that area who have found that they still possess legal entitlement to the land, as some of these treaties still carry some weight in their favour. I doubt very much that they will stake a claim to the whole of the American Southwest, just the areas which are of religious and historical significance to them.
Just as is the case with the Palestinians, they have already compromised enough - they've had their country stolen from them by a foreign invader, and been subjected to the level of second class citizens ever since. They are now seeking a portion of what ostensibly belongs to them in law. They still have legal rights.
The Palestinians have stated that they will accept a truce along the June 1967 border, in line with the rest of the world - excluding the U.S. What the natives of the American South West are seeking to claim is another issue. Maybe you can look into that for us?
And lets not kid ourselves here. Hamas is not the only Israeli target. The target is the same target it has been for 60 years. Ordinary Palestinian people who have first suffered the indignity of having their land stolen from them, then endured 60 years of appalling conditions within Palestine or exile outside it. Sixty years of physical and psychological violence and oppression.
Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated areas, there are 4,000 people per square kilometre and not one of them can escape. Imagine living like that. To keep on topic, that video that _outlaw posted was heart breaking. I said it before and i'll say it again, Israel had absolutely no right denying that little boys basic right of treatment. He wasn't at war with them, he never pointed a gun at them, he never fired rockets at them. His crime? He was a child born in Gaza.
If Israel chooses to continue punishing a whole nation of people for the actions of a few, the conflict will never end. Instead, Israel should defuse the extremism by working to build the Palestinian economy. They need to reopen Gaza borders and not only allow aid from other countries to go to Gaza, but also work to provide aid on their own. Instead of working to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas, they need to work to build the infrastructure of Gaza. If Israel can improve the lives of Palestinians, Hamas and other extremist groups will be helpless to do anything but watch as their support dwindles.
Give them their land back. Please. And stop violating their basic human rights. That's a start.
That's because the Illegal occupation isn't 50/50 in blame. The Palestinians aren't responsible for being occupied.
the problem is that there is no hope for peace without hamas ... hamas is the only thing stopping the israelis from building settlements everywhere and truly eliminating the palestinians from their land ... remember that hamas didn't exist until israel started to do things they weren't supposed to ... in appealing to the world way back when - we had a plethora of UN resolutions against the state of israel - none of which ever made it thanks to a permanent security veto by the US ... so, lacking help from the international community - this is what you get ... we've seen what israel is prepared to do if there is no resistance ...
Haha you keep trying to divert the facts. You clearly did a quick search on youtube and posted the first links to support a biased argument. Then got owned.
Then you are trying to make me feel guilty by saying I am supporting a Hamas militant haha. Nice try. My argument is that what you are trying to describe the video as is BULLSHIT. I am not supporting a Hamas militant. You also have no proof it is actually a Hamas militant anyway.
To summarise, your links are bullshit. You could of posted other negative things about Hamas which I would of agreed with you on but you were too excited to start defending israel. Pathetic.
The kids are brainwashed. Lovely. Are you a sociologist now? Nice try once again I never said it was right. You can keep trying to support your arguments with bullshit. I guess you learnt from the best bullshitters around... The hasbara.
hamas just gives the Israelis a scapegoat for its brutal military reactions and border blockade in Gaza. the Palestinian Authority can easily replace Hamas
but the video isnt bullshit. its clearly shows a Palestinian militant (or Hamas or whatever you want to call him) grabbing a child and running away from gunfire. it speaks for itself.
yes I am. I also have common sense. 6 year olds dont decide for themselves thats its ok to kill themselves to support a resistance. they are taught that.
The Palestinian authority is a fucking joke. The following articles shed some truth on the matter:
http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/c ... story.html
'...Israel has never liked Palestinian moderates, for the simple reason that concessions might have to be made to them. To avoid being drawn into negotiations, it has always preferred Palestinian radicals - and when they were not there it has done everything it could to create them.
'How can you negotiate with someone who wants to kill you?' is a familiar Israeli refrain.
The war on Gaza has confirmed Israel's visceral rejection of any expression of Palestinian nationalism. It will kill to prevent it, as sixty years of wars, assassinations and massacres testify. Consciously or not, Israeli leaders seem to fear that any recognition of Palestinian aspirations undermines the legitimacy of their own national enterprise.
It may be that the war was launched precisely because Hamas has recently shown signs of moderation. Its key spokesmen - including Khaled Mish'al, head of its political bureau - have expressed their readiness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. To Israel's dismay, they have begun to distance themselves from the movement's 1987 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction.
The Qassam rockets were a great embarrassment to the Israeli government. It was unable to stop them except by agreeing a truce. The rockets angered an Israeli population notoriously blind to any suffering but its own. But, in truth, the rockets were no more than highly irritating pin-pricks. The figures speak for themselves. Fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In the same period Israel, displaying its usual astonishing indifference to Arab life, has killed some 2,000 Palestinians. Israeli state terror has been incomparably more lethal than anything Hamas could manage. The death toll continues to mount.
Israel never liked the truce with Hamas and chose not to respect its terms. Instead of easing the blockade on Gaza -- as it was meant to do -- it tightened it, reducing the crowded, suffering Strip to abject misery. And it unilaterally broke the truce by an armed incursion on 4 November, which killed several Hamas men. In retrospect, this action must be seen as a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas into a violent response, and thus provide Israel with a casus belli.
Stopping the rockets fired by Hamas into the Negev was indeed only one of several reasons Israel went to war, and by no means the most important one. If anything, the rockets have provided Israel with a pretext for launching a war with far wider aims.
The principal aim of Israel's 'all-out war' on Hamas is to reaffirm the military supremacy over all its neighbours which the Jewish state has enjoyed since its creation in 1948. The war is therefore meant as a warning to Hizballah in Lebanon, as well as to Syria and Iran -- and indeed to anyone who might dare challenge Israel's predominance -- that they, too, could face the sort of devastating punishment Gaza is now enduring.
Deterrence - one-sided, Israel-only deterrence - lies at the heart of Israel's security doctrine. It wants total freedom to hit, and never to be hit back. It relies on brute force to protect itself, and rejects any form of mutual deterrence. It is totally opposed to a regional balance of power which might force it to moderate its actions...'
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449
Hamas, Son of Israel - The Israelis birthed and nurtured their Islamist nemesis
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."
You just said it yourself "grabbing a child and running away from gunfire". So the guy runs towards gunfire to grab a child and drag him away from the gunfire. Thats your definition of human shield? You forget to mention that the militant's top half is completely prone to a bullet. I bet if an American soldier was in that video you would be describing what a hero he was.. how he saved that child haha.
This is what a human shield looks like:
http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpres ... onists.jpg
You don't need to teach a kid anything if he's seen his mother or father shot dead by an IDF soldier for no reason.. or seen his home bulldozed to the ground for no reason.. or seen his classmates get killed by a bomb.. or seen his parents belittled everyday for years every time they want to pass a checkpoint to go to work or home.. or NOT seen his father the night an IDF soldier refused to let him pass a checkpoint because he felt like it.. Kids are like a sponge they don't need to be taught when things are right in front of their eyes.
People forget that the Israeli's went on assassination sprees in the 70's killing off a lot of the Palestinian moderates that would have had a chance in ruling Palestine peacefully. They forget that in the 80's Hamas developed because of Israel and even since those early days HAMAS WAS IN CONTACT WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. The israelis actually helped Hamas get more and more power.
Keep fighting the good fight. Always good to read the links you post.
Here's an interesting article on the bogey monster called Hamas:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/02 ... g-charity2
Hamas Victory Is Built on Social Work
By Kim Murphy
March 02, 2006
“It’s safer to come to an Islamic place, where you can find a doctor who’s not only a good dentist, but a good Muslim,” said Najwa abu Mustafa, 24, who sat one recent afternoon in the sunny waiting room with several other women, shrouded in black veils but for the thin openings around their eyes. “You’re putting yourself in God’s hands.”
The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip’s biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas.
The militant group’s recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah.
The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks.
Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group’s public support.
“Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities – where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more,” said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. “But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization.”
Over the last two decades, several large Islamic charities have come to be closely associated with Hamas, including the Mujamma Islami network, Al Salah Society, the Islamic Center and the Islamic University of Gaza. But the International Crisis Group said there was little “substantial evidence” that Islamic welfare institutions “systematically divert” funds to support terrorist activity.
“Hamas doesn’t have much in the way of resources, but they have a big network of charity working in order to reduce the suffering of the Palestinian people,” said Sami abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the group in Gaza. “People feel the credibility of Hamas, and its ability to make change through the charity organizations that it runs.”
In Gaza, Al Salah Society’s school for 1,000 orphans and other youngsters in the teeming town of Deir al Balah stands in sharp contrast to the crumbling concrete and dusty streets around it, a fenced-in oasis of palms and neat classrooms.
“Muslims are the best nation created in the world,” says a banner hanging outside the school, next to another that says, “Those who learn more earn a higher degree in paradise.”
Al Salah’s director, Ahmad Kurd, was recently elected mayor of Deir al Balah, and Hamas scooped up two of the region’s three parliamentary seats in the January elections.
“In 1994 there was an Israeli operation which destroyed several Palestinian houses [of families of suspected militants] in one of the poorest neighborhoods,” Kurd said. “I had to meet with the Israeli commander, and he asked me, ‘Why are you supporting and helping those victims who lost their homes?’
“I told him, ‘The Red Crescent is helping, the Churches United organization also gives some help to them, the Catholic Relief organization, the United Nations. And Al Salah Society is there as well. Is it forbidden?’ And he was not able to respond to that.”
When Israeli forces launched a major incursion into the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah in 2004, leaving nearly 1,500 residents homeless, Al Salah sent fundraisers with megaphones down the streets, going door to door, standing on street corners and outside the mosques. Women were asked to drop their gold necklaces into the collection boxes. Poor families gave sacks of rice. Al Salah collected $1 million worth of food, valuables and cash in Gaza, one of the poorest places in the Middle East.
Yet Kurd said it would be a mistake to think Hamas won the votes because of its charity work.
“The people are getting a lot more money from America, from the international community. The international donors distributed perhaps $6 billion in the last 10 years. The Islamic charity organizations didn’t pay out 1% of that money,” he said.
Palestinians associate U.S. aid with Washington’s support for Israel, he said. “The Palestinian feels, ‘You give me that money, and you kill me. You give me money, and you destroy my house. You give me money, and you send planes to kill our kids.’ ”
Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, said international aid had focused on public works projects but had done little to provide direct help to the poor, or to those families that have lost a breadwinner in the conflict with Israel.
“Unfortunately, the Western side has donated for projects like cleaning the streets or painting the walls, but they didn’t give anything for the care of orphans,” he said. Some of the most controversial programs operated by the Muslim charities provide stipends, housing and direct financial aid to the families of suicide bombers.
In the narrow alleyways of the sprawling refugee camp at Deir al Balah, hundreds of families get cash payments of $40 to $100 a month from Mujamma Islami and Al Salah, along with meat, beans, flour and eggs.
“We would be completely destitute without this help,” said Ataf Ostaz, 41, who has nine children and whose husband died of a stroke two years ago. “Naturally, we gave our votes to Hamas, because they are the ones who touch our need.”
The unlikely mix of services offered at Al Quds Clinic – pediatrics, maternal healthcare, orthodontics and post-surgical care – is no accident. Mujamma Islami, which opened the center in October 2002, conducted a survey of the clinics already operating in Khan Yunis.
“We did studies and reached the decision that some services are not good enough in government hospitals, and so we decided to offer these services ourselves,” said clinic director Atiya Abumoaamar. “The point is that the public hospitals are very, very cheap, so where we compete with them is not in prices, but in quality.”
At the same time, fees generally are substantially lower than those at private clinics.
Caseloads now reach up to 400 patients a month, and if there is a profit at the end of the month, Abumoaamar splits it with doctors and office staff. Otherwise, they work without salary as volunteers. The effort has been judged such a success that two more clinics are opening soon, with funding from the Saudi-based World Assembly of Muslim Youth.
“If the international community will just give it a chance and will not isolate it, if donors don’t freeze the funds, if the Arab countries help make some solution, I guarantee that Hamas will do a better job of running this society,” Abumoaamar said.
But some Palestinians point out that there is a big difference between operating schools and clinics and running a government for 3 million people.
“The Palestinian Authority has to reach everyone, and in a situation of closures, unemployment reaching unprecedented figures, and in an environment in which you are constantly being undermined, these services are obligatory,” said Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights in Gaza City.
“Hamas has done its homework. Over the years, they have established very good social services, they have the maximum use of the mosque,” he said. “And it will be good to have Hamas in the government. Welcome! But think of the situation.
“With Abu Mazen [current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], the international community transferred only $350 million of the $1 billion they were supposed to send for 2005. This is with the good guys in charge, not the terrorists!” he said. “Imagine how things will be with Hamas.”"
Thanks man. Respect.
as long as you don't support the use of children as human shields on either side, then we agree. and we'll agree to disagree that children decide for themselves that its a good thing to kill themselves to support resistance. I dont care what they've been through. deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself to be detonated it is something that is taught and encouraged.
Like algebra, or a healthy eating regime.
Just don't bring experience into the mix, it might complicate things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8059021.stm
UN Gaza inquiry 'to proceed despite Israel'
Wednesday, 20 May 2009
'A UN inquiry into possible war crimes in Gaza will go ahead even if Israel does not co-operate, says Richard Goldstone, who leads the inquiry team.
Mr Goldstone said he was "disappointed" Israel had given no positive response, and said his team would enter Gaza via Egypt if Israel refused them visas.
The UN wants to investigate whether Israel and Hamas committed war crimes during the January conflict in Gaza.
Israel accuses the UN branch carrying out the mission of bias against it.
The UN Human Rights Council has been accused of singling out Israel unfairly, and is viewed by some as having less credibility than other parts of the UN.
But correspondents say the selection of Mr Goldstone, a respected South African war crimes prosecutor who is also Jewish, as head of the inquiry has given it greater clout.
Mr Goldstone said his team had hoped to visit southern Israeli towns which have suffered Palestinian rocket fire , before entering Gaza from Israel.
But if Israel failed to allow the investigators passage, entering through the Rafah crossing on the Egypt-Gaza border would be a "second choice".
He said that after talks with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, the team had decided to hold a series of public hearings.
If these could take place in the Middle East "so much the better", but if not they would be held in Geneva, with witnesses flown in or testifying via video link, he said.
Most Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are unable to leave because of Israel's blockade on the territory.
Israel has given no official response to the inquiry team, but media reports have suggested it does not plan to co-operate.
Israeli ambassador in Geneva Leshno Yaar told Associated Press earlier that the council treats Israel "unfairly" and that "justice cannot be the outcome of this mission".
Several investigations into alleged violations of international law during Israel's 22-day operation in Gaza, which ended on 18 January, have now reported back.
Mr Ban has requested more than $11m (£7m) compensation from Israel for damage to UN property in Gaza, after a limited UN inquiry accused Israel of targeting known civilian shelters and providing untrue statements to justify actions in which civilians were killed.
The report found Israel to blame in six out of nine incidents when death or injury were caused to people sheltering at UN property and UN buildings were damaged.
The Israeli military has concluded in an internal investigation that its troops fought lawfully, although errors did take place, such as the deaths of 21 people in a wrongly targeted house.
Meanwhile, a fact-finding team commissioned by the Arab League said there was sufficient evidence for the Israeli military to be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that "the Israeli political leadership was also responsible for such crimes".
It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
About 1,300 Palestinians died in the January conflict. Israeli and Palestinian estimates differ on the numbers of civilian casualties.
Ten Israeli soldiers were killed, including four by friendly fire, and three Israel civilians died in rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.
do you consider this a war crime? a simple yes or no will suffice.
Since you love talking about what's justified, here's a simple yes or no question for you:
Is it ok for Hamas to target civilians?
Huh? That article doesn't even mention the Palestinian authority, just says that Israel likes Hamas because it justifies its violence, which is exactly the point that jlew made?
i agree with you for the most part in that they are a convenient excuse however back to my previous post - the opinions have been changing ... remember the PLO used to be what hamas was ... now they are considered the moderate voice? ... times and opinions change
It's suddenly very quiet in here...
According to the definition of war crime, probably. Although the rockets largely fell in and around the area of Sderot. Sderot is occupied Palestinian land and legally belongs to the Palestinians. The Israeli's have no right to be there. If the rocket attacks make life there uncomfortable for them then they can simply fuck off back to America or Israel.
Although only 3 Israeli civilians were killed by Hamas' rockets, compared with an estimated 900 Palestinian civilians.
'Palestinian moderates' = Palestinian Authority? Get it?
And Jlew has never made the point that Israel likes Hamas. Once again you resort to putting words in other peoples mouths that weren't there to begin with, because you have no argument.
Let me get this right...Israel recently massacred over 900 Palestinian civilians in Gaza, and you're asking me if I think it's o.k for Palestinians to attack Israeli civilians?
I'll go with Gandhi on this one. I'll say that the Palestinians have every right to hit back in retaliation.
Do you consider Illegal Jewish settlers to be innocent civilians?
These are the civilians that you love so much:
Attack by American-Israeli Settlers May 13th 2006
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5358600137
'Jewish settler attack' on film - Thursday, 12 June 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7451691.stm
'...Over the brow of the hill walk four masked men holding baseball bats. To the right of the screen, in the foreground, stands a 58-year-old Palestinian woman.
Thamam al-Nawaja has been herding her goats close to the Jewish settlement of Susia, near Hebron in the southern West Bank.
Within a few seconds, she, along with her 70-year-old husband and one of her nephews, will be beaten up.
As the first blows land, the woman filming - the daughter-in-law of the elderly couple - drops the camera and runs for help.
Mrs Nawaja spent three days in hospital after the attack...'
http://www.cpt.org/cptnet/2008/11/17/tu ... internatio
17 November 2008
Israeli settlers attack Palestinian shepherds, kill donkey, injure internationals.
'On 15 November 2008, around 9:00 a.m., approximately fifteen masked Israeli settlers from the illegal outpost of Havat Ma'on attacked three Palestinian shepherds who were grazing their flocks in a valley south of the outpost. The settlers came running down from a ridge above the shepherds, hurling rocks. The shepherds were able to get their flocks away before the rocks injured them.
During the incident, the settlers were able to steal two of the shepherds' donkeys. The settlers killed one donkey with a knife wound in the chest area. They slashed another across the throat, but the donkey survived.
Settlers also hit two internationals from Christian Peacemaker Teams—who were accompanying the shepherds—with large rocks. One CPTer sustained minor injuries...'
Photo Essay - Israeli Settlers attack Palestinian School Girls in Hebron
http://www.eappi.org/en/photos-videos/p ... ebron.html
Israeli settlers attack farmers near Qalqiliya
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?op ... s&ID=37921
19 / 05 / 2009
'Israeli settlers set fire to farmland and assaulted Palestinian farmers and an Israeli activist in two villages east of the West Bank city of Qalqiliya on Tuesday.
Ma’an’s correspondent reports that large areas of wheat fields and olive groves went up in flames in the villages of Jit and Far’ata before firefighters arrived and extinguished the blaze.
Local residents said Israeli soldiers also attacked farmers, leaving many of them bruised among them Hani Arman, Othman As-Sadda, Ahmad Arman, Zakariyya As-Sadda, and an Israeli activist with the organization Rabbis for Human rights.
Soldiers also seized 15-year-old Murad Yamin.
According to farmers, fights erupted after settlers from the Gilad outpost attacked a rally in the area protesting previous settler attacks and Israeli Civil Administration’s claims that farmers do not own their land in spite of documents proving ownership.'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=93 ... =351020202
Israeli settlers attack Palestinian villagers
Fri, 01 May 2009
'Human right groups have voiced concern about the growing number of Israeli settlers attack on Palestinians.
Armed Israeli settlers have attacked a village in the southern West Bank, inflicting considerable damage on Palestinian residential and agricultural property.
Palestinian sources say a group of twenty Israeli settlers from Beit Ein attacked Beit Safa, a nearby Palestinian village, late Thursday and opened fire on Palestinian homes.
The attackers also set ablaze land under cultivation in the region.
Moments later Israeli soldiers rushed into the area to disperse the crowd and stop the violence, but there were no reports of arrests.
Israeli settlers, who are considered illegal under international law, frequently attack Palestinians in the West Bank.
Beit Ein -- with nearly 1,000 residents -- is known as one of the most radical settlements in the occupied West Bank.'
http://www.imemc.org/article/60403
Israeli settlers attack Palestinian homes near Hebron
Thursday May 14, 2009
A group of Israeli settlers attacked on Thursday Palestinian homes located at the village of Khirbit Um-alkher near the southern West Bank city of Hebron.
'The villagers said that the settlers came from the nearby Karmel Settlement. They added that at least 15 armed settlers ransacked and damaged three homes and killed two sheep dogs.
The villagers rushed to stop the settlers; the Israeli military and police arrived and escorted the settlers out of the village.
The village is the home of 170 farmers, the setters attack them frequently in an attempt to force them out of their homes and land to expand the settlement, the villagers told media.'
http://imeu.net/news/article0016205.shtml
Israeli settlers attack Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance in Hebron's Old City
Ma'an News, Apr 12, 2009
'A group of Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance in the old city of Hebron Saturday afternoon, causing damage to the vehicle.
According to Abed Al-Haleem Al-Ja'afra, the Head of Ambulance and Emergency Services for the Red Crescent, the ambulance was moving a patient from the Hebron governmental hospital to her home on Ash-Shuhada Street when the attack occurred. The Israeli army had given permission for the ambulance to drive on Ash-Shuhada Street, which is normally closed to all Palestinian cars and traffic.
As the ambulance arrived to the Al- Qarantina area, the soldiers opened the checkpoint, allowing the vehicle into the area where it was then attacked by settlers who threw stones at the vehicle.
"The vehicle was ambushed, and the soldiers turned a blind eye to the incident, making no move to stop the settlers from throwing stones," Al-Ja'afra said.
Being unable to move forward and take the patient safely to her home, the ambulance tried to back out of the street, but soldiers would not open the checkpoint for several minutes.
The patient was eventually returned to the emergency ward at Hebron governmental hospital, and awaits approval from Israeli authorities as to when she will safely be able to return home.'
Amazing that out of the whole article, which discusses Israel's massacre of 1,300 Palestinians you choose to focus your attention on the fact the 3 Israeli's were killed. I think this speaks volumes about you.
thats actually the EXACT point I was making here..
and yet again you are accusing others of putting words in peoples mouth? this is getting beyond absurd. thats pretty much the only thing you have been doing.
did you google hypocrisy like I told you to?
it does? ok let me try again. the massarce of 1300 Palastinians is a disgusting and horrible act. I sincerely hope there are generals or leaders in charge who get put in jail for war crimes for such acts.
ok ready....
nevermind, you already answered... you feel Israeli civilians are valid targets and should be killed
now THAT speaks volumes about you.