Everyone needs to watch this video

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

the land is in dispute. Israel wants and took it by force and Palestine wants it back. dispute.

Resolution 242:
'Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war ...'

The occupation is illegal. This is not disputed. Period.

jlew24asu wrote:

Hamas is part of the blame for the ongoing problems in the region by their deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

Are you trying to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

I'll ask you again: Why are illegal Jewish-only settlements still being built? And how is Hamas - or Fatah, or the Al Asqa Brigades, or the PLO - responsible for the settlements?

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

people in the US are MUCH more free then you in China. you not being able to watch youtube is a perfect example.

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

Also, the fact that 41% of Americans believe Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 is another example.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

And here I thought China was so much more free than the US... or so you tried to tell me a few months ago.

You have a very short memory. I didn't say that China was more free than the U.S. I said that people live freer lives.

Still, the truth is I was exaggerating. People here are no more or no less free than people in the U.S. Both countries have their propaganda systems firmly in place, amongst other things.

Yeah, don't know how I could have made that mistake :roll: I would say China's doing more than using propaganda, they shut down and outlaw anything that doesn't toe that party line. At least we have access to outside information.

Anyway, "exaggerating." Thanks. Exactly what I always knew. Not that that stopped you from trying to argue and rationalize it.

As to Hamas and Israel, fuck em both. Why we still send money over there boggles my mind. Let those fuckers blow each other to hell. When they learn to play like grown ups, we can start talking to them again.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

people in the US are MUCH more free then you in China. you not being able to watch youtube is a perfect example.

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

I don't think he said we had no restrictions, he said China is worse. He's right. I love that you admit you were full of shit and exaggerating, and then immediately start trying to defend that nonsense again.

We have the Patriot Act. China has the patriot act, executions for violations of it, and a total ban on youtube and all other news sources that might make people aware of how they're being fucked. Yeah, we've got our shortcomings, but they pale in comparison to what goes on in China.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

Hamas is part of the blame for the ongoing problems in the region by their deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

Are you trying to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

I'll ask you again: Why are illegal Jewish-only settlements still being built? And how is Hamas - or Fatah, or the Al Asqa Brigades, or the PLO - responsible for the settlements?

This is exactly why the situation over there is and will always be fucked. Nowhere did he ever say anything remotely like this here or anywhere else, and you know it.

If I stole $100 from you and you shot me, the fact that you shot me doesn't mean it was ok that I stole from you in the first place.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

the land is in dispute. Israel wants and took it by force and Palestine wants it back. dispute.

Resolution 242:
'Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war ...'

The occupation is illegal. This is not disputed. Period.

call it whatever you like. the land is in dispute. two parties want the same land.

jlew24asu wrote:

Hamas is part of the blame for the ongoing problems in the region by their deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

Byrnzie wrote:

Are you trying to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

no, I havent even come close to saying or implying that.. are you trying to justify Hamas killing and targeting Israeli civilians??

Byrnzie wrote:

I'll ask you again: Why are illegal Jewish-only settlements still being built? And how is Hamas - or Fatah, or the Al Asqa Brigades, or the PLO - responsible for the settlements?

I NEVER SAID THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SETTLEMENTS. I made this bold and red so you understand.

Hamas is part of the ongoing problems by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

people in the US are MUCH more free then you in China. you not being able to watch youtube is a perfect example.

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

Also, the fact that 41% of Americans believe Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 is another example.

LOL yea ok. its fun to make up shit. fact is, you live in under a VERY restrictive government. quite sad how you actually support it.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

I would say China's doing more than using propaganda, they shut down and outlaw anything that doesn't toe that party line. At least we have access to outside information.

I have some news for you: The Chinese have internet access too.

soulsinging wrote:

As to Hamas and Israel, fuck em both. Why we still send money over there boggles my mind. Let those fuckers blow each other to hell. When they learn to play like grown ups, we can start talking to them again.

They have been blowing each other to hell, and with U.S support and encouragement. Israel's recent massacre in Gaza was given full support by the U.S government. You should be ashamed that your tax money contributed to the lives of over 400 Palestinian children being snuffed out.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

people in the US are MUCH more free then you in China. you not being able to watch youtube is a perfect example.

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

Also, the fact that 41% of Americans believe Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 is another example.

No, that's an example of Americans being stupid and lazy, not unfree. They could find out otherwise if they cared. But they don't.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

people in the US are MUCH more free then you in China. you not being able to watch youtube is a perfect example.

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

Also, the fact that 41% of Americans believe Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 is another example.

LOL yea ok. its fun to make up shit. fact is, you live in under a VERY restrictive government. quite sad how you actually support it.

Firstly, what am I making up?

Secondly, what makes you think I support the Chinese government?

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

I would say China's doing more than using propaganda, they shut down and outlaw anything that doesn't toe that party line. At least we have access to outside information.

I have some news for you: The Chinese have internet access too.

soulsinging wrote:

As to Hamas and Israel, fuck em both. Why we still send money over there boggles my mind. Let those fuckers blow each other to hell. When they learn to play like grown ups, we can start talking to them again.

They have been blowing each other to hell, and with U.S support and encouragement. Israel's recent massacre in Gaza was given full support by the U.S government. You should be ashamed that your tax money contributed to the lives of over 400 Palestinian children being snuffed out.

LIMITED internet access... limited to sites that are government censored and approved.

Don't tell me what I should and should not be ashamed of. You should be ashamed of your blatant intellectual dishonesty... You defend the Chinese government, whose human rights record rivals Israel's and then you point the finger at me for not taking a stand?

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

No, that's an example of Americans being stupid and lazy, not unfree.

So when the question was posed to them they just made it up? And it's just a coincidence that 41% said Sadaam was responsible for 9/11? I'd have thought that if they were just plucking names out of thin air that Hugo Chavez would have got a look-in somewhere, or Colonel Qaddafi, or maybe even...Osama Bin Laden.

The reason can't possibly be that the U.S media helped sow the lie of Iraq & 9/11, now can it? :roll:

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

And the Patriot Act in the U.S is a perfect example of how you are not free.

Also, the fact that 41% of Americans believe Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 is another example.

LOL yea ok. its fun to make up shit. fact is, you live in under a VERY restrictive government. quite sad how you actually support it.[/quote]

Firstly, what am I making up?[/quote]

patriot act does not make me less free. and 41% of Americans do not think Saddam was responsible for 9/11. go ahead have your little cut and paste party with links for 7 years ago when the Bush admin was pushing for ties between Saddam and El-queda. all of that has since been proven false and Americans now know this.

Byrnzie wrote:

Secondly, what makes you think I support the Chinese government?

you live there, giving a significant portion of your paychecks to them. if you oppose the government, are you doing anything about it like protesting them for not allowing something as BASIC as access to a random website?


I didnt think so.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

LIMITED internet access... limited to sites that are government censored and approved.

Don't tell me what I should and should not be ashamed of. You should be ashamed of your blatant intellectual dishonesty... You defend the Chinese government, whose human rights record rivals Israel's and then you point the finger at me for not taking a stand?

You think that mainstream news media in the U.S isn't government censored and approved?

Intellectual dishonesty? Great, let's begin here then: Please point out one instance where I defended the Chinese government. Thanks, I'm waiting.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

patriot act does not make me less free. and 41% of Americans do not think Saddam was responsible for 9/11. go ahead have your little cut and paste party with links for 7 years ago when the Bush admin was pushing for ties between Saddam and El-queda. all of that has since been proven false and Americans now know this.

You love making a fool of yourself don't you.

7 years ago you say? How about 2 years ago?

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Poll_41_o ... _0624.html
Number of Americans who believe Saddam-9/11 tie rises to 41 percent
Josh Catone
Published: Sunday June 24, 2007


'A new Newsweek poll out this weekend exposed "gaps" in America's knowledge of history and current events.

Perhaps most alarmingly, 41% of Americans answered 'Yes' to the question "Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?"

That total is actually up 5 points since September 2004.

Further, a majority of people couldn't identify Saudia Arabia as the country of origin of most of the 9/11 hijackers, even given the question in multiple choice format. 20% answered Iraq, while 14% believed the hijackers came from Iran...'

Byrnzie wrote:

Secondly, what makes you think I support the Chinese government?

jlew24asu wrote:

you live there, giving a significant portion of your paychecks to them. if you oppose the government, are you doing anything about it like protesting them for not allowing something as BASIC as access to a random website?


I didnt think so.

So I live here, therefore I support the government? And everyone who lives in the U.S supports the U.S government? Errm, yep...sure.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

No, that's an example of Americans being stupid and lazy, not unfree.

So when the question was posed to them they just made it up? And it's just a coincidence that 41% said Sadaam was responsible for 9/11? I'd have thought that if they were just plucking names out of thin air that Hugo Chavez would have got a look-in somewhere, or Colonel Qaddafi, or maybe even...Osama Bin Laden.

The reason can't possibly be that the U.S media helped sow the lie of Iraq & 9/11, now can it? :roll:

Of course it is. In the back of their McD's soaked brain, they remembered watching the news for about a week after 9/11 and swore they recalled something like that being said. And they regurgitated it. And yes, it got there because that's what Dubya said and thus what the media repeated.

HOWEVER... and here is the crucial difference that you will no doubt ignore because it proves you wrong and reveals your hypocrisy... many other news sources called the Iraq-9/11 thing for the bullshit it was. And we could READ those sources or watch coverage of it on youtube. In China, you cannot do that because the government has blocked access and censored that information. So don't talk to me about freedom. We have the options, we just don't always use them. China doesn't even give the option.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

You love making a fool of yourself don't you.

7 years ago you say? How about 2 years ago?

yea, you really got me. since this site is probably blocked in China, I'll cut and paste it for you.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/ ... 3552.shtml

Polls, Truth Sometimes At Odds

How can people believe something that isn’t true?

A significant number of Americans say Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

That number rose above 50 percent in the run-up to the war in Iraq in 2003. While that belief has since declined somewhat, for many Americans it still exists. In the latest CBS News/New York Times Poll 33 percent said they believe Saddam was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks.

As has been repeated over and over, there was and is no evidence of any such link. So why do so many people believe something that just isn’t true?

One reason might be related to the amount of time a person spends following news, something related to education and gender. Forty-four percent of those with a high school education or less say Saddam was personally involved in 9/11, while just 20 percent of college graduates say so. Thirty-eight percent of women think he was part of the attack, compared with 27 percent of men.

Another reason could involve feelings about the Iraq war itself, and the importance of reducing cognitive dissonance. The Iraq War has become a partisan issue - three in four Republicans say going to war was the right thing to do, while three in four Democrats say it was not. Nearly half of those who now say the Iraq war was the right thing to do connect 9/11 with Saddam. Consequently, 40 percent of Republicans believe Saddam was involved in 9/11, while just 27 percent of Democrats do.

Bringing down Saddam remains the key accomplishment of the war, according to the public, and those who support the war are more likely to believe this and to credit Saddam with a role in 9/11. Doing so, after all, gives them another justification for the war they support. Opponents of the war don’t have the same reason to blame Saddam.

Making a link between terrorism in general and the war in Iraq also matters. Overall, Americans are more likely to say the war in Iraq is creating more terrorists who might attack the U.S. than to say it is eliminating terrorists. But among those who believe the U.S. is eliminating terrorists by fighting in Iraq, just about half (49 percent) believe that one of those terrorists was Saddam himself!

Among Republicans, blaming Saddam is also related to the vote choice of those who say they plan to participate in a Republican primary or caucus next year. Those who support Rudy Giuliani and Fred Thompson are more likely than those who support John McCain and Mitt Romney to link Saddam with 9/11.

But finally, the belief in what isn’t true brings us back to the quality of information - to where it comes from and how it is perceived. Norbert Schwarz, a psychology professor and researcher at the University of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research, has conducted research (reported in this Washington Post article) that suggests that some people who are told something is false may actually remember it as being true. He measured the misperception within 30 minutes of the receipt of the information, and found that misperceptions may actually become stronger over time.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

LIMITED internet access... limited to sites that are government censored and approved.

Don't tell me what I should and should not be ashamed of. You should be ashamed of your blatant intellectual dishonesty... You defend the Chinese government, whose human rights record rivals Israel's and then you point the finger at me for not taking a stand?

You think that mainstream news media in the U.S isn't government censored and approved?

Intellectual dishonesty? Great, let's begin here then: Please point out one instance where I defended the Chinese government. Thanks, I'm waiting.

I was referring to your inability and refusal to answer a straight question. I point out that China has blocked access to any outside news sources... you ignore that and say "hey US mainstream media is selective too." That's intellectual dishonesty... that's trying to change the question because you know you're wrong. In the US, we have access to plenty of media outside the mainstream, China doesn't. But God knows you'd never admit that... it would mean you'd have to acknowledge that there are problems in the world outside the US and that maybe people in the US do have it a little bit better than other places.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

and here is the crucial difference that you will no doubt ignore because it proves you wrong and reveals your hypocrisy... So don't talk to me about freedom. We have the options, we just don't always use them. China doesn't even give the option.

My hypocrisy? Your government, and media, routinely lie to you. Are you denying that?

The fact that some media outlets may have done an about-turn a year or two after the invasion/occupation of Iraq doesn't mean shit.

People in China also have options - and most people don't always use them. Youtube was first blocked about 3 weeks ago. But for everything else there's web-proxy's.

You think Americans are so much freer than people in other countries. I say bullshit.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

I was referring to your inability and refusal to answer a straight question.

What straight question? Go ahead and remind me.

soulsinging wrote:

I point out that China has blocked access to any outside news sources... you ignore that and say "hey US mainstream media is selective too." That's intellectual dishonesty

Actually, one common form of intellectual dishonesty is distorting what people actually said. For example, I didn't say "hey US mainstream media is selective too." I said something else. You're only able to argue by fudging the facts, and moving the goalposts. Still, everyone reading this has eyes to see quite clearly what you're up to, so keep going. It's amusing if nothing else.