I think this incident hurts your cause however. had perez acted differently, you would have many more people who on the fence about the issue, come to your side. Perez just gave them more firepower by a) not allowing her to win based on her personal choice b) say the outrageous things on his blog about her.
its unfortunate.
I don't think so. Had Perez acted differently you would never have heard about this whole thing and nobody would have given a shit but they'd sure as hell find another reason to deny gay people rights. It's always something.. one gay person makes a spectacle of themselves and people looking for a reason to hate gay people have another reason.
When Chris Crocker did his "Leave Britney Alone" video, he was also held up as a reason to deny gay people marriage.. there's always some scapegoat.
I'm not saying YOU are doing that but I'm sure a lot of people are. It's easier for them if they have a reason to hate us, even if it isn't a good one.
and what if some Churches like the catholic church decide that they wont marry you in a catholic church are you gonna go cry to ACLU
Oh no, you're confusing two issues.
We don't want religious marriage rights. We want civil marriage rights. The kind you get by marrying at city hall.
As it is now, the Catholic church doesn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry even if they're straight and nobody is trying to change that. Nobody is trying to change religious beliefs or policy. Nobody is trying to force any churches to recognize my marriage... I don't care what the Pope thinks but I DO care who inherits my estate, who has legal power of attorney rights and who is my "next of kin."
and what if some Churches like the catholic church decide that they wont marry you in a catholic church are you gonna go cry to ACLU
Oh no, you're confusing two issues.
We don't want religious marriage rights. We want civil marriage rights. The kind you get by marrying at city hall.
As it is now, the Catholic church doesn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry even if they're straight and nobody is trying to change that. Nobody is trying to change religious beliefs or policy. Nobody is trying to force any churches to recognize my marriage... I don't care what the Pope thinks but I DO care who inherits my estate, who has legal power of attorney rights and who is my "next of kin."
I really think there's a serious misconception out there among religious people about this. I think they truly believe the gay community wants to storm their church, edit their bibles, and force their pastors to marry gay people. That's just not true.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
There was a time when black men were lynched for just looking at a white woman much less marry one. Yes, at one time it was against the law and today it is STILL looked down on especially in the south. I know this for a fact in Palm Beach Florida, it takes all my energy just stay out of confrontations.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Is that a serious question? It was still against the campus code at Bob Jones just a few years ago.
yea its a serious question. obviously its been socially illegal if you will for decades, even ever, but I didnt know actual LAWS were written against it.
and I have no idea what campus code at Bob Jones means. sorry I'm a stock market tech guy, your lawyer speak goes over my head :?: :shock:
Is that a serious question? It was still against the campus code at Bob Jones just a few years ago.
yea its a serious question. obviously its been socially illegal if you will for decades, even ever, but I didnt know actual LAWS were written against it.
and I have no idea what campus code at Bob Jones means. sorry I'm a stock market tech guy, your lawyer speak goes over my head :?: :shock:
I thought you were messing with us Bob Jones is a university, until a few years ago you could be expelled for interracial dating. It's been law on the books of many states and cities since the Civil War.
and what if some Churches like the catholic church decide that they wont marry you in a catholic church are you gonna go cry to ACLU
of course not.
are you purposely missing the point?
seperation of church and state. i don't think anyone is 'crying' over any religious insitituion denying them marriage rights...i think most sadly expect it. what they DON't expect, nor agree with - and nor do i - is LEGAL marriage being denied them solely on the basis of WHO they want to marry, another consenting adult, who happens to be of the same gender. it really is quite simple - a civil rights infringement.
the day the catholic church allows homosexuals to marry will be the day they also decide divorce is ok and you can still receive communion, that condom use is ok and doesn't actually 'help' spread AIDs, etc......meaning: never.
and what if some Churches like the catholic church decide that they wont marry you in a catholic church are you gonna go cry to ACLU
Oh no, you're confusing two issues.
We don't want religious marriage rights. We want civil marriage rights. The kind you get by marrying at city hall.
As it is now, the Catholic church doesn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry even if they're straight and nobody is trying to change that. Nobody is trying to change religious beliefs or policy. Nobody is trying to force any churches to recognize my marriage... I don't care what the Pope thinks but I DO care who inherits my estate, who has legal power of attorney rights and who is my "next of kin."
I don't know if she should have won or lost (her answer was kind of rambling and incoherent), but that Perez Hilton should never, ever, ever have been made a judge. He's a buffoon who obviously put his own political agenda above the task at hand. My statement has nothing to do with him being gay.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Meh. Perez's job has always been to create a scene. It's why they brought him on board.
Yes, calling her a "dumb bitch" was probably out of line but that's his schtick. Not that I don't agree with him, mind you, but I'm not a judge (nor would I be).
People really have got to stop over-simplifying the whole issue. She lost not because she has an opinion but because the want title holders to be able to walk a thin line when giving answers. She failed that test.
but you cant walk a thin line with that question. its either you are for gay marriage or you aren't.
I can. I don't oppose it or support it.
My opinion is that the government shouldn't sanction marriage at all.
How's that for walking the line?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"The way miss California answered her question lost her the crown, without a doubt!" Perez told Access Hollywood after the pageant.
---
keep in mind, Perez was a judge.
I think it's wrong that she was penalized because she didn't give the answer the judges wanted. Shouldn't we all be entitled to our own opinions about things? Should she have been calculating and LIED instead?! How is that supposed to be better?! I don't know. But then again...
Perhaps it's the big picture that people are becoming aware that disapproval of gay marriage is a type of discrimination? Perhaps now it seems like everyone is supposed to approve of this because NOT approving it is viewed as withholding rights to people?!
I can kind of see both sides of this problem. :geek:
She obviously missed the class about "preparing answers to please others rather than expressing how you really feel to win pagents." :? :roll:
I don't know if she should have won or lost (her answer was kind of rambling and incoherent), but that Perez Hilton should never, ever, ever have been made a judge. He's a buffoon who obviously put his own political agenda above the task at hand. My statement has nothing to do with him being gay.
I agree. Not that I thought the Trump owned pageant had much credibility to begin with, what they did have they lost by hiring that buffoon.
My opinion is that the government shouldn't sanction marriage at all.
How's that for walking the line?
but with marriage comes laws. marriage is much more then a religious activity. if it were that and only that, then yea, government should absolutely stay out of it. so to take that stance doesnt really make much sense.
"The way miss California answered her question lost her the crown, without a doubt!" Perez told Access Hollywood after the pageant.
---
keep in mind, Perez was a judge.
I think it's wrong that she was penalized because she didn't give the answer the judges wanted. Shouldn't we all be entitled to our own opinions about things? Should she have been calculating and LIED instead?! How is that supposed to be better?! I don't know. But then again...
Perhaps it's the big picture that people are becoming aware that disapproval of gay marriage is a type of discrimination? Perhaps now it seems like everyone is supposed to approve of this because NOT approving it is viewed as withholding rights to people?!
I can kind of see both sides of this problem. :geek:
She obviously missed the class about "preparing answers to please others rather than expressing how you really feel to win pagents." :? :roll:
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
My opinion is that the government shouldn't sanction marriage at all.
How's that for walking the line?
but with marriage comes laws. marriage is much more then a religious activity. if it were that and only that, then yea, government should absolutely stay out of it. so to take that stance doesnt really make much sense.
exactly.
and since marriage IS sanctioned by the government, whether you agree with it or not - it's not 'walking the line' by just saying you don't believe the govt should be involved. they ARE. until they are not, it's best to form an opinion on the topic so one can vote for/against what they believe is best for the country and it's citizens.
personally i LIKE 'legal marriage'....b/c such affords couples a very easy way to declare themselves legally together, with all the rights and responsibilities of it.
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
sounds like you are basically saying she needs support gay marriage in order to win this pageant. no?
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
sounds like you are basically saying she needs support gay marriage in order to win this pageant. no?
i think to answer the question 'correctly'........yes. i think EVERYone should support gay marriage, even if they personally are against it. i can easily say something is not right for me, but agree it is right for others to choose for themselves. it's a civil rights issue, plain and simple.
however, she did not need to answer this one question one particular way to win the pageant, she needed to do a WHOLE lotta other stupid shit to do that. as i don't watch pageants, i have no idea if she did or did not do all those other things 'right' either.....and that's why i don't judge beauty pageants.
anyhoo....her answer was moronic and incorrect, even without her personal pov. as i posted earlier, if indeed this one question 'cost' her, it may well be b/c she doesn't even know that gay marriage is NOT legal in all 50 states. her answer was terrible.
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
sounds like you are basically saying she needs support gay marriage in order to win this pageant. no?
i think to answer the question 'correctly'........yes. i think EVERYone should support gay marriage, even if they personally are against it. i can easily say something is not right for me, but agree it is right for others to choose for themselves. it's a civil rights issue, plain and simple.
but (I'm assuming) she doesnt support gay marriage. so its of your opinion, based on that stance, that she should not win. personally, I dont think thats fair.
"The way miss California answered her question lost her the crown, without a doubt!" Perez told Access Hollywood after the pageant.
---
keep in mind, Perez was a judge.
I think it's wrong that she was penalized because she didn't give the answer the judges wanted. Shouldn't we all be entitled to our own opinions about things? Should she have been calculating and LIED instead?! How is that supposed to be better?! I don't know. But then again...
Perhaps it's the big picture that people are becoming aware that disapproval of gay marriage is a type of discrimination? Perhaps now it seems like everyone is supposed to approve of this because NOT approving it is viewed as withholding rights to people?!
I can kind of see both sides of this problem. :geek:
She obviously missed the class about "preparing answers to please others rather than expressing how you really feel to win pagents." :? :roll:
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
My opinion is that the government shouldn't sanction marriage at all.
How's that for walking the line?
but with marriage comes laws. marriage is much more then a religious activity. if it were that and only that, then yea, government should absolutely stay out of it. so to take that stance doesnt really make much sense.
exactly.
and since marriage IS sanctioned by the government, whether you agree with it or not - it's not 'walking the line' by just saying you don't believe the govt should be involved. they ARE. until they are not, it's best to form an opinion on the topic so one can vote for/against what they believe is best for the country and it's citizens.
personally i LIKE 'legal marriage'....b/c such affords couples a very easy way to declare themselves legally together, with all the rights and responsibilities of it.
I think you should just be able to designate the rights currently afforded to married couples to any other adult that you want. Following that, let people call themselves married or not. What would it matter?
(but even thought that really does solve the issue, you start to see the backpedaling begin)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
sounds like you are basically saying she needs support gay marriage in order to win this pageant. no?
i think to answer the question 'correctly'........yes. i think EVERYone should support gay marriage, even if they personally are against it. i can easily say something is not right for me, but agree it is right for others to choose for themselves. it's a civil rights issue, plain and simple.
however, she did not need to answer this one question one particular way to win the pageant, she needed to do a WHOLE lotta other stupid shit to do that. as i don't watch pageants, i have no idea if she did or did not do all those other things 'right' either.....and that's why i don't judge beauty pageants.
anyhoo....her answer was moronic and incorrect, even without her personal pov. as i posted earlier, if indeed this one question 'cost' her, it may well be b/c she doesn't even know that gay marriage is NOT legal in all 50 states. her answer was terrible.
I think it may take some time for the train carrying equal rights for homosexual couples to get to every town though. And even when it arrives at the station, like this incident, people may not want to accept the delivery!
I think it takes a while for abstract ideas to sink into American culture.
i think to answer the question 'correctly'........yes. i think EVERYone should support gay marriage, even if they personally are against it. i can easily say something is not right for me, but agree it is right for others to choose for themselves. it's a civil rights issue, plain and simple.
but (I'm assuming) she doesnt support gay marriage. so its of your opinion, based on that stance, that she should not win. personally, I dont think thats fair.
i didn't say that.
i said to answer the question 'correctly'...nothing about winning or losing the pageant necessarily. however, even for the pageant....as i said....since this miss whatever is to represent 'USA' she should represent the country, and that means representing it's constitution and all. even tho it may not be legal everywhere...yet....it SHOULD be. just like 'seperate but equal' was never right either. point is, i don't think ANYone would win or lose based on one question, alone....it's the whole enchilada. just b/c one judge says it cost her the pageant, doesn't make it so.
justam...i hear ya......but every step in the right direction is a good one.
I think you should just be able to designate the rights currently afforded to married couples to any other adult that you want. Following that, let people call themselves married or not. What would it matter?
why does it apparently matter now? b/c apparently it DOES matter to some, if it didn't homosexuals would have these rights right now, in every state.
Comments
I don't think so. Had Perez acted differently you would never have heard about this whole thing and nobody would have given a shit but they'd sure as hell find another reason to deny gay people rights. It's always something.. one gay person makes a spectacle of themselves and people looking for a reason to hate gay people have another reason.
When Chris Crocker did his "Leave Britney Alone" video, he was also held up as a reason to deny gay people marriage.. there's always some scapegoat.
I'm not saying YOU are doing that but I'm sure a lot of people are. It's easier for them if they have a reason to hate us, even if it isn't a good one.
This isn't about making me happy. It's about treating my family equally under the law. I'm sure I'll always have a reason to be an asshole.
But it's not even the 50 states I care about as much as federal recognition. That's the rights my family needs to protect ourselves.
Oh no, you're confusing two issues.
We don't want religious marriage rights. We want civil marriage rights. The kind you get by marrying at city hall.
As it is now, the Catholic church doesn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry even if they're straight and nobody is trying to change that. Nobody is trying to change religious beliefs or policy. Nobody is trying to force any churches to recognize my marriage... I don't care what the Pope thinks but I DO care who inherits my estate, who has legal power of attorney rights and who is my "next of kin."
too much info.
Is that a serious question? It was still against the campus code at Bob Jones just a few years ago.
The same thing that was wrong with "separate but equal" schools, drinking fountains, swimming pools...
I really think there's a serious misconception out there among religious people about this. I think they truly believe the gay community wants to storm their church, edit their bibles, and force their pastors to marry gay people. That's just not true.
There was a time when black men were lynched for just looking at a white woman much less marry one. Yes, at one time it was against the law and today it is STILL looked down on especially in the south. I know this for a fact in Palm Beach Florida, it takes all my energy just stay out of confrontations.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
yea its a serious question. obviously its been socially illegal if you will for decades, even ever, but I didnt know actual LAWS were written against it.
and I have no idea what campus code at Bob Jones means. sorry I'm a stock market tech guy, your lawyer speak goes over my head :?: :shock:
I thought you were messing with us
of course not.
are you purposely missing the point?
seperation of church and state. i don't think anyone is 'crying' over any religious insitituion denying them marriage rights...i think most sadly expect it. what they DON't expect, nor agree with - and nor do i - is LEGAL marriage being denied them solely on the basis of WHO they want to marry, another consenting adult, who happens to be of the same gender. it really is quite simple - a civil rights infringement.
the day the catholic church allows homosexuals to marry will be the day they also decide divorce is ok and you can still receive communion, that condom use is ok and doesn't actually 'help' spread AIDs, etc......meaning: never.
edit:
i see already addressed fully, and better.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I can. I don't oppose it or support it.
My opinion is that the government shouldn't sanction marriage at all.
How's that for walking the line?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think it's wrong that she was penalized because she didn't give the answer the judges wanted. Shouldn't we all be entitled to our own opinions about things? Should she have been calculating and LIED instead?! How is that supposed to be better?! I don't know. But then again...
Perhaps it's the big picture that people are becoming aware that disapproval of gay marriage is a type of discrimination? Perhaps now it seems like everyone is supposed to approve of this because NOT approving it is viewed as withholding rights to people?!
I can kind of see both sides of this problem. :geek:
She obviously missed the class about "preparing answers to please others rather than expressing how you really feel to win pagents." :? :roll:
I agree. Not that I thought the Trump owned pageant had much credibility to begin with, what they did have they lost by hiring that buffoon.
but with marriage comes laws. marriage is much more then a religious activity. if it were that and only that, then yea, government should absolutely stay out of it. so to take that stance doesnt really make much sense.
this debate isn't about pageants. its about gay marriage. the fact that this incident happened during a pageant is irrelevant.
isn't that it tho?
it's not about your personal opinion, approval or disproval. she could've EASILY expressed her personal pov, AND said that she does however agree her personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others. no one is asking her to lie.....but if one wants to be miss usa or whatthefuckever, they should at the very least be able to see and appreciate the 'bigger picture'...and that includes your personal beliefs not infringing on the right of others.
exactly.
and since marriage IS sanctioned by the government, whether you agree with it or not - it's not 'walking the line' by just saying you don't believe the govt should be involved. they ARE. until they are not, it's best to form an opinion on the topic so one can vote for/against what they believe is best for the country and it's citizens.
personally i LIKE 'legal marriage'....b/c such affords couples a very easy way to declare themselves legally together, with all the rights and responsibilities of it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
sounds like you are basically saying she needs support gay marriage in order to win this pageant. no?
i think to answer the question 'correctly'........yes. i think EVERYone should support gay marriage, even if they personally are against it. i can easily say something is not right for me, but agree it is right for others to choose for themselves. it's a civil rights issue, plain and simple.
however, she did not need to answer this one question one particular way to win the pageant, she needed to do a WHOLE lotta other stupid shit to do that. as i don't watch pageants, i have no idea if she did or did not do all those other things 'right' either.....and that's why i don't judge beauty pageants.
anyhoo....her answer was moronic and incorrect, even without her personal pov. as i posted earlier, if indeed this one question 'cost' her, it may well be b/c she doesn't even know that gay marriage is NOT legal in all 50 states. her answer was terrible.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
but (I'm assuming) she doesnt support gay marriage. so its of your opinion, based on that stance, that she should not win. personally, I dont think thats fair.
I think you should just be able to designate the rights currently afforded to married couples to any other adult that you want. Following that, let people call themselves married or not. What would it matter?
(but even thought that really does solve the issue, you start to see the backpedaling begin)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think it may take some time for the train carrying equal rights for homosexual couples to get to every town though. And even when it arrives at the station, like this incident, people may not want to accept the delivery!
I think it takes a while for abstract ideas to sink into American culture.
i didn't say that.
i said to answer the question 'correctly'...nothing about winning or losing the pageant necessarily. however, even for the pageant....as i said....since this miss whatever is to represent 'USA' she should represent the country, and that means representing it's constitution and all. even tho it may not be legal everywhere...yet....it SHOULD be. just like 'seperate but equal' was never right either. point is, i don't think ANYone would win or lose based on one question, alone....it's the whole enchilada. just b/c one judge says it cost her the pageant, doesn't make it so.
justam...i hear ya......but every step in the right direction is a good one.
why does it apparently matter now? b/c apparently it DOES matter to some, if it didn't homosexuals would have these rights right now, in every state.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow