the most solid proof that obama isn't a real agent of change

cornnifer

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

[

Closing Gitmo.... and sending all those detainees to one of the other detention camps we have scattered all over the globe. You guys act as if he's sending them all home. .

i see. So, we should close Gitmo, and... just send all the prisoners home!? What, give them a suit and a couple hundred bucks and release them? While we're at it why don't we close Angola and send all those guys home also. Fuck, there are all kinds of prisons in the United States filled with some pretty bad guys. In the name of prgress i say we free them all. :roll:

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

[

Closing Gitmo.... and sending all those detainees to one of the other detention camps we have scattered all over the globe. You guys act as if he's sending them all home. .

i see. So, we should close Gitmo, and... just send all the prisoners home!? What, give them a suit and a couple hundred bucks and release them? While we're at it why don't we close Angola and send all those guys home also. Fuck, there are all kinds of prisons in the United States filled with some pretty bad guys. In the name of prgress i say we free them all. :roll:

To be fair to her and her legit point, I think all but a fraction of the people in US prisons were arrested based on probable cause, charged with crimes, given a trial, and convicted. The people they rounded up and tossed in Gitmo have often been held for years without even being told why they were taken in the first place. I think it's pretty shitty. Either you've got some reason for grabbing them and should thus charge them based on that and give them some sort of chance to respond, or you shouldn't have picked them up.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

To be fair to her and her legit point, I think all but a fraction of the people in US prisons were arrested based on probable cause, charged with crimes, given a trial, and convicted. The people they rounded up and tossed in Gitmo have often been held for years without even being told why they were taken in the first place. I think it's pretty shitty. Either you've got some reason for grabbing them and should thus charge them based on that and give them some sort of chance to respond, or you shouldn't have picked them up.

Point taken. i still can't quite see just freeing them all. i seriously doubt Gitmo is filled with Cat Stevens and his buddies strumming guitars and singing "Father and Son".

puremagic

So you're saying,

--In order for Obama to have been creditable in his quest for the position of President of the United States he had to DIE.

--In order for Obama's message of Change to be taken as creditable, he had to DIE.

--If Obama's run's for the President was seen as a real threat to the 'establishment' he would have to DIE.

Well guess what, Obama, is President of the United States and whatever changes and success he is having must be making some people in the so called 'establishment' crazy.

So who's this 'establishment'!
--the Teabaggers. I wonder how many parents have explained to their 'children' the alternate
meaning of teabagging before they allowed them to hold up those I SUPPORT TEABAGGING
signs.
--the Republican congress that has all day to twitter on the job (on your tax dollar) because
the only thing they do is vote NO.
--the hate groups and the selective media haters.
--the God fearing people who believe whatever spiteful, evil, hateful wrong they do, it can be
justified because they believe Jesus will forgive their wick, sinful ways.

Are these the people you believe are the real ' establishment', the the same people who were used, then discarded like the joker in a deck of cards as the Republican party fell apart. Only the District of Columbia has the right to call foul when it comes to taxation without representation. Anyone else who has a problem with their taxation needs to tell their congressman or senator to stop twittering and do some real work.

So is it a call for a revolution against Democracy or is it a call for those who have become the extremists to call for the assassination of the President of the United States. - because I'm trying to understand the logic behind the -why- this President of the United States has to DIE if he doesn't fulfill a campaign promise.

wolfamongwolves

Man oh man, but there's a helluva lot of melodrama flying around this thread


Sure, Obama's not perfect. Yes, some decisions and actions have been questionable. And by all means, question them. But it's far too early to be ableto judge just yet. Don't be too quick to curse the action when you don't know the outcome. Very much more of what he has done has been (to me, at least)deeply welcome and very encouraging.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?

I don't think so.

Not by a long shot.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

To be fair to her and her legit point, I think all but a fraction of the people in US prisons were arrested based on probable cause, charged with crimes, given a trial, and convicted. The people they rounded up and tossed in Gitmo have often been held for years without even being told why they were taken in the first place. I think it's pretty shitty. Either you've got some reason for grabbing them and should thus charge them based on that and give them some sort of chance to respond, or you shouldn't have picked them up.

Point taken. i still can't quite see just freeing them all. i seriously doubt Gitmo is filled with Cat Stevens and his buddies strumming guitars and singing "Father and Son".

No doubt. But that's why I like Obama's order to either charge or release them. If they've got reason to hold them, they can prove it. The only ones getting out will be those that didn't belong in the first place.

cornnifer

works for me.

Anon

DPrival78 wrote:

.. and can speak in complete sentences

meet the new boss. same as the old boss.

I um, uh, um think that um uh yes um I agree.

Same as the old boss, indeed.

Let's close Gitmo and release them here, and pay them to get set up.

wolfamongwolves

Aren't a lot of you conveniently forgetting that most of the inmates of Guantánamo have already been released into society? Because the vast majority of them are not terrorists or criminals but people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, arrested for no other reason than paranoia. Nearly 800 people arrested, and yet they admit they have no evidence to try any more than 80 of them. If, after 8 years, they still can't find a single damn thing to try someone for, then how can you possibly justify holding them? That just illustrates all the more the complete failure, the legal and moral bankruptcy of the whole Guantánamo project. So close it, put the inmates you have something on into the legitimate legal system, and the ones, the majority, who there is no justification for holding, release them.

And while we're at it, to equate Guantánamo with Angola is absolute nonsense.

Abookamongstthemany

soulsinging wrote:

I recall reading an article about him ordering everyone in Gitmo to either be charged or released. If I'm wrong about that, my bad. So then... stem cells? Global gag rule? Any response to undoing some of the moronic Christian bullshit?

Sure, he is better than Bush but who wouldn't be, really? He's done a few things to pacify the masses and put forth the illusion of change and very little else. All the rest seems pretty 'business as usual' to me. I guess I just expect more from our leaders since we are the ones placing them in their positions. I view it to be very plausable that we could really turn this country around if we'd stop limiting our expectations and settling for this extremely minimal perspective of what is possible.

soulsinging wrote:

Or is it easier to just ignore those to prove your point that Obama is an evil warlord plotting world domination?

:roll:

I'm not gonna bother with addressing any of these over-the-top exagerations of what you assume I think. Comment on what I've said and stop sensationalizing this discussion by putting words in my mouth.

Abookamongstthemany

Cosmo wrote:

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

DPrival78 wrote:

obama is just another puppet of the ruling elite. he's got a nice smile, and can speak in complete sentences, but all those characteristics do is make him even more dangerous than his predecessor, because it allows more people to fall for the act.

meet the new boss. same as the old boss.

I've said the exact same thing! All it means is that he'll be better at lying and getting away with it. It means nothing without actions that bring some actual change to this country.

...
Hey Sweetie.. Great to hear from you again!!!
Catching any of Ed's gig?

Hey there Cosmo! It's been a crazy last several months for me but I'm doing fine.
Nope, no Ed shows for me...to friggin' broke :P Maybe next time.

Abookamongstthemany

jlew24asu wrote:

hi abook, its been a long time. hope all is well with you.

ok back to this post . so I'm confused. you sound like you want these guys to go home and have a "better life". why?

sure there is a chance that one or two of these guys do not deserve to be in jail. but do you realize who you are talking about? they slice your childs throat in front of you and make you watch. they are sworn enemies of you. yes, specifically you.

Specifically me??? :shock: Are you sure?...I thought I was one of Al Qaeda's staunchest defenders here! How could they?! :P

Hi jlew, nice to see you here.

Cosmo

cornnifer wrote:

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

[

Closing Gitmo.... and sending all those detainees to one of the other detention camps we have scattered all over the globe. You guys act as if he's sending them all home. .

i see. So, we should close Gitmo, and... just send all the prisoners home!? What, give them a suit and a couple hundred bucks and release them? While we're at it why don't we close Angola and send all those guys home also. Fuck, there are all kinds of prisons in the United States filled with some pretty bad guys. In the name of prgress i say we free them all. :roll:

...
The problem with Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is this... We are creating terrorists there. By picking up boatloads of people from the Middle East and holding them there... some of them were picked up on accusations or 'anonymous tips', we are converting them to the fanatical side of the fence. Imagine someone that doesn't like you... calls the cops and says you are a bank robber and the cops come and pick you up and lock you in Rikers Island based on that one piece of information. You are not charged with anything and are held for 8 years. Do you understand and agree with the cops and the court systems? Or you you grow dissent and hatred for them? What about your Family and friends? Will they understand and agree with the system and accept it? Or do they also build hatred towards the people responsible for your incarceration?
When we release them... do you think they will say... "No problem... I understand what yo are doing.". Or will they band up with terrorists... something they would probably not have done previously? So, what do we do? Hold them because they might (and probably will) seek vengence against us? We created their dissent and hatred. We created this situation. The longer we hold them, the more they will hate us. Wouldn't your hatred build if they continued to imprison you based on their belief that you might seek retribution?
And the ones we are able to identify as terrorists... they can be held at places like Pelican Bay or on U.S. military base prisons. We are America, not the Soviet Union, Iran, North Korea or Communist China. When we act like them, we stop becoming America.
...
As for the inmates in the U.S... they were charged and convicted based upon the evidence against them. There's a difference.

jlew24asu

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

hi abook, its been a long time. hope all is well with you.

ok back to this post . so I'm confused. you sound like you want these guys to go home and have a "better life". why?

sure there is a chance that one or two of these guys do not deserve to be in jail. but do you realize who you are talking about? they slice your childs throat in front of you and make you watch. they are sworn enemies of you. yes, specifically you.

Specifically me??? :shock: Are you sure?...I thought I was one of Al Qaeda's staunchest defenders here! How could they?! :P

Hi jlew, nice to see you here.

yes you. you are a non muslim american. they would slice your throat without hesitation. I just really cant understand why you are defended them.

Abookamongstthemany

jlew24asu wrote:

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

hi abook, its been a long time. hope all is well with you.

ok back to this post . so I'm confused. you sound like you want these guys to go home and have a "better life". why?

sure there is a chance that one or two of these guys do not deserve to be in jail. but do you realize who you are talking about? they slice your childs throat in front of you and make you watch. they are sworn enemies of you. yes, specifically you.

Specifically me??? :shock: Are you sure?...I thought I was one of Al Qaeda's staunchest defenders here! How could they?! :P

Hi jlew, nice to see you here.

yes you. you are a non muslim american. they would slice your throat without hesitation. I just really cant understand why you are defended them.

How do you know all of this is true of the detainees in Gitmo?

jlew24asu

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

How do you know all of this is true of the detainees in Gitmo?

it definitely doesn't apply to everyone there. like I said, some probably deserve to, at the very least, defend themselves. I've researched the names of many people there when the names were released. most were captured on the battle field in Afghanistan. those individuals should be given the rights of the geneva convention IMO. list of detainees..http://wid.ap.org/documents/detainees/list.html

but others do not...like this guy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_Abdalla_Hassan

"The detainee affirmed that if a leader of his tribe ordered an attack on America, he would be bound by duty to obey."

you want to give this guy a "better life" ?

polaris_x

i agree with the original poster's sentiment that real change requires a drastic overhaul of the system and in the past have said that obama will be like the others ... well, in the first few months - it's safe to say he isn't bush nor a lot of the others ... yes - some things are PR ... smoke and mirrors but understanding that he is working within a corrupt system to begin with - i will give him some kudos for doing something ...

some things i like and hope he has the courage to actually see through:

* cuba (he's talking to cuba)
* ditto for iran
* move to cleaner energy sources
* it's not my way or the highway approach
* a garden at the white house!

at the end of the day - real change has to start with the individual ... people have to educate themselves on the issues and be active participants in the democracy ... until then - all you will get are corporately financed candidates and for being one - obama isn't that bad ... it could be A LOT worse ... as we've seen ...

soulsinging

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

I recall reading an article about him ordering everyone in Gitmo to either be charged or released. If I'm wrong about that, my bad. So then... stem cells? Global gag rule? Any response to undoing some of the moronic Christian bullshit?

Sure, he is better than Bush but who wouldn't be, really? He's done a few things to pacify the masses and put forth the illusion of change and very little else. All the rest seems pretty 'business as usual' to me. I guess I just expect more from our leaders since we are the ones placing them in their positions. I view it to be very plausable that we could really turn this country around if we'd stop limiting our expectations and settling for this extremely minimal perspective of what is possible.

soulsinging wrote:

Or is it easier to just ignore those to prove your point that Obama is an evil warlord plotting world domination?

:roll:

I'm not gonna bother with addressing any of these over-the-top exagerations of what you assume I think. Comment on what I've said and stop sensationalizing this discussion by putting words in my mouth.

Comment on what YOU have said? How about you comment on my points about the global gag rule and stem cells eh?

Better than Bush is still a good thing. What you left-wing loons don't realize is that most of the country doesn't AGREE with your policies. Just like most of the country doesn't agree with the agenda of the Christian right. So no, Obama is not going to turn the US into a hippy, peace and love, socialist paradise in... how long has he been in office? THREE MONTHS? What exactly were you hoping to see him get done in 3 months?

This minimal perspective isn't about what's possible, it's about what the US people want. It's called compromise, which is a term I know you don't understand, but it's a fact of reality in any society. No one person gets their whole way 100% of the time. You listen to both sides, and chart a wise course somewhere in the middle. So far, Obama's been doing a decent job of this. Bush was the opposite of this... he refused to listen to any side but his own and refused to compromise. I was under the impression you hated him for it, but now I see you're ok with a narrow-minded president that ignores most of the country, as long as he's on your side.

WaveCameCrashin

soulsinging wrote:

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

I recall reading an article about him ordering everyone in Gitmo to either be charged or released. If I'm wrong about that, my bad. So then... stem cells? Global gag rule? Any response to undoing some of the moronic Christian bullshit?

Sure, he is better than Bush but who wouldn't be, really? He's done a few things to pacify the masses and put forth the illusion of change and very little else. All the rest seems pretty 'business as usual' to me. I guess I just expect more from our leaders since we are the ones placing them in their positions. I view it to be very plausable that we could really turn this country around if we'd stop limiting our expectations and settling for this extremely minimal perspective of what is possible.

soulsinging wrote:

Or is it easier to just ignore those to prove your point that Obama is an evil warlord plotting world domination?

:roll:

I'm not gonna bother with addressing any of these over-the-top exagerations of what you assume I think. Comment on what I've said and stop sensationalizing this discussion by putting words in my mouth.

Comment on what YOU have said? How about you comment on my points about the global gag rule and stem cells eh?

Better than Bush is still a good thing. What you left-wing loons don't realize is that most of the country doesn't AGREE with your policies. Just like most of the country doesn't agree with the agenda of the Christian right. So no, Obama is not going to turn the US into a hippy, peace and love, socialist paradise in... how long has he been in office? THREE MONTHS? What exactly were you hoping to see him get done in 3 months?

This minimal perspective isn't about what's possible, it's about what the US people want. It's called compromise, which is a term I know you don't understand, but it's a fact of reality in any society. No one person gets their whole way 100% of the time. You listen to both sides, and chart a wise course somewhere in the middle. So far, Obama's been doing a decent job of this. Bush was the opposite of this... he refused to listen to any side but his own and refused to compromise. I was under the impression you hated him for it, but now I see you're ok with a narrow-minded president that ignores most of the country, as long as he's on your side.

moronic christian bullshit? So If anybody disagrees with you on stem cell research were morons ? That's real nice soulsinging way to go.

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

moronic christian bullshit? So If anybody disagrees with you on stem cell research were morons ? That's real nice soulsinging way to go.

Yes, pretty much. The stem cell thing is moronic.