I don't think there is a lot the average person in America can do to stop it, but all is being proposed here is not to loose track of it. Its still a serious issue that has taken a back seat in the last couple of years, and its only getting worse.
And when I mean keep an open mind, I mean keep an open mind that there could be the possibility that this won't go away, even if we reverse our foreign policies and dissolve Israel.
People have lost focus on what got us here, 8 years later and most people have already forgotten whats at stake. This isn't a lie our government came up with to scare us, its a reality.
I agree with you, people do have the power, and if people decide to tune out and ignore important issues that face us, we will repeat the past all over again.
You're right... we CANNOT tune out and forget the past. That is why people point out that this did NOT begin 8 years ago... it began 30-40 years ago when we used fundamentalist Islam as a weapon against the Soviets and then hung them out to dry. They remember that, we try to forget it ever happened. No, maybe it won't go away if Israel is dissolved tomorrow. But it will only get worse if we continue to pretend we are utterly blameless here and make no effort whatsoever to right the past wrongs we have done.
Compare it to the civil rights movement. For years we turned a blind eye to racism, pretending that since slavery ended, all was well. Not until 100 years later and the civil rights movement of the 1960's did we actually acknowledge the wrongs done and try to address them. Today we see the fruits of that work in a nation that has made enormous progress towards racial harmony. We need this same approach to the Middle East and Islam, but it starts by acknowledging that our actions have not always been fair and that we need to change that.
But when is it enough? How much appeasement do we have to go through to get them to stop? We can do everything right from this day forward, but is it enough to stop them? I say this now because I really feel that we are at a cross roads right now in regards to this situation. Pakistan could collapse at any moment, a country with a sizable military and Nukes, would be more of a threat than Iran if they had a radical government. Countries in Africa where there is absolutely no law what so ever, effecting shipping lanes around the continent. Even stable modern places like Saudi Arabia could transform into a hostile nation given the right conditions. The whole deal is a powder keg waiting to explode, and suck us and the West into biting more than we can chew. This isn't the Axis of WWII, its an enemy that will fight with no rules, and impossible to track. Very scary times.....
Really the key to this as we have agreed on is keeping it in the spot light. I just think most American's are tired of hearing about the war and our economy, that they will drop their support for intervention, and when they tune out, so does the politics.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
This paragraph particularly struck me - what do you mean you don't want to wake up to another "how could this have happened to us?" You do realize that it made perfect sense that terrorists would get angry enough with our policies to do something like that, right? Before anyone takes this out of context, I am clearly in no way justifying it - just saying that a response to 9/11 of "how could this happen?" is really stupid if you see the patterns of our policies throughout history, more particularly the past few decades. Our blind support of Israel and oppressive Arab regimes, and our own oppressive policies towards Middle Easterns is what led to this. We need to learn from 9/11, and by that I don't mean responding to fire with the same policies, just multiplied... which leads me to the question: what do you think we should do about this so-called threat of Islamic fundamentalism? you've been trying to convince us for 5 pages that it's a threat, but what do you want us to do about it?
But when is it enough? How much appeasement do we have to go through to get them to stop? We can do everything right from this day forward, but is it enough to stop them? I say this now because I really feel that we are at a cross roads right now in regards to this situation. Pakistan could collapse at any moment, a country with a sizable military and Nukes, would be more of a threat than Iran if they had a radical government. Countries in Africa where there is absolutely no law what so ever, effecting shipping lanes around the continent. Even stable modern places like Saudi Arabia could transform into a hostile nation given the right conditions. The whole deal is a powder keg waiting to explode, and suck us and the West into biting more than we can chew. This isn't the Axis of WWII, its an enemy that will fight with no rules, and impossible to track. Very scary times.....
Really the key to this as we have agreed on is keeping it in the spot light. I just think most American's are tired of hearing about the war and our economy, that they will drop their support for intervention, and when they tune out, so does the politics.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
We will never find out if we don't try. I'm not saying we have to dissolve all our security measures and and start sending them nuclear material. But it means listening to their problems with Israel, and keeping our meddling out of their affairs. We armed and trained Osama Bin Laden. We armed and trained Saddam. We are the ones that installed the first fascist dictator in Iran. Do you see a pattern here? Our first step is to stop disregarding the Muslim world and treating their countries like tools to advance US economic interests. Step two is to stop blindly backing Israel's every insane move out of a misguided "us against them" mentality and start giving legitimate weight to Palestinian grievances.
When we show these people that they can run their countries how they want without the US interfering, their anger will abate. Right now their backs are against the wall. They don't see us as international peacekeepers, they see us as a huge, imperial bully that throws around money and weapons and crushes anyone that defies them. We need to change that image and treat them as equals, not errant children just needing a little injection of western McDonald's driven capitalism. If it doesn't work... our nukes aren't going anywhere. Speak softly, carry a big stick.
Also, it's incredibly fucked up that you say they won't play by the rules like the Axis did... what rules did the Holocaust abide by?
But when is it enough? How much appeasement do we have to go through to get them to stop? We can do everything right from this day forward, but is it enough to stop them? I say this now because I really feel that we are at a cross roads right now in regards to this situation. Pakistan could collapse at any moment, a country with a sizable military and Nukes, would be more of a threat than Iran if they had a radical government. Countries in Africa where there is absolutely no law what so ever, effecting shipping lanes around the continent. Even stable modern places like Saudi Arabia could transform into a hostile nation given the right conditions. The whole deal is a powder keg waiting to explode, and suck us and the West into biting more than we can chew. This isn't the Axis of WWII, its an enemy that will fight with no rules, and impossible to track. Very scary times.....
Really the key to this as we have agreed on is keeping it in the spot light. I just think most American's are tired of hearing about the war and our economy, that they will drop their support for intervention, and when they tune out, so does the politics.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
We will never find out if we don't try. I'm not saying we have to dissolve all our security measures and and start sending them nuclear material. But it means listening to their problems with Israel, and keeping our meddling out of their affairs. We armed and trained Osama Bin Laden. We armed and trained Saddam. We are the ones that installed the first fascist dictator in Iran. Do you see a pattern here? Our first step is to stop disregarding the Muslim world and treating their countries like tools to advance US economic interests. Step two is to stop blindly backing Israel's every insane move out of a misguided "us against them" mentality and start giving legitimate weight to Palestinian grievances.
When we show these people that they can run their countries how they want without the US interfering, their anger will abate. Right now their backs are against the wall. They don't see us as international peacekeepers, they see us as a huge, imperial bully that throws around money and weapons and crushes anyone that defies them. We need to change that image and treat them as equals, not errant children just needing a little injection of western McDonald's driven capitalism. If it doesn't work... our nukes aren't going anywhere. Speak softly, carry a big stick.
Also, it's incredibly fucked up that you say they won't play by the rules like the Axis did... what rules did the Holocaust abide by?
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
This paragraph particularly struck me - what do you mean you don't want to wake up to another "how could this have happened to us?" You do realize that it made perfect sense that terrorists would get angry enough with our policies to do something like that, right? Before anyone takes this out of context, I am clearly in no way justifying it - just saying that a response to 9/11 of "how could this happen?" is really stupid if you see the patterns of our policies throughout history, more particularly the past few decades. Our blind support of Israel and oppressive Arab regimes, and our own oppressive policies towards Middle Easterns is what led to this. We need to learn from 9/11, and by that I don't mean responding to fire with the same policies, just multiplied... which leads me to the question: what do you think we should do about this so-called threat of Islamic fundamentalism? you've been trying to convince us for 5 pages that it's a threat, but what do you want us to do about it?
9/11 didn't surprise me so much that we were attacked, I've always followed world affairs since I was a kid. I remember Somalia, and the first bombing of the towers in the early 90's, and of course Oklahoma city. What did surprise me was how they accomplished it, none of it I feel is far fetched, but it goes beyond a bombing, it really crippled us as a country. What I meant about that statement was the reaction of most American after it happened. Less face it, most people here in the states don't know much about our own country let alone world affairs. (I actually over heard two kids in my one of my college classes argue about how many states there here in the US!) Most Americans didn't know where Afghanistan was before 9/11 nor have they ever heard of Al Qaeda. So for me personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again, but lets say in ten years from now, most Americans are going to say it again if it happens....as if they can't understand why? People have very short memories when it comes to this, and most people don't give a shit as long as it doesn't interrupt their daily lives.
I don't think there is anything you or the handful of people on this board can do right now to stop it. But I want you to remember the Rosie O'Donnell part in the movie, granted shes a complete idiot, but thats not the point. Shes hinting that terrorist are imaginary and made up by the Bush administration to scare people. People like that shape voters minds, and its said to say but it’s the truth. Most people will believe anything the media tells them as fact. Most people are not well informed, and will eat that crap up as truth. Shes not the only one, there are a lot of people out there that think that, and there are even more people who think our policy alone is at fault. With all that’s going on here in America and the new change in leadership, this issue seems to be put on the back burner, at the worst possible time. I’m not advocating total war, but we are in the middle of this, we can’t back out like we have in the past, how many times do we have to repeat this until we learn?
We are at a very important part in history, I really believe this, I just posted this video to remind people that this didn’t go away.
But when is it enough? How much appeasement do we have to go through to get them to stop? We can do everything right from this day forward, but is it enough to stop them? I say this now because I really feel that we are at a cross roads right now in regards to this situation. Pakistan could collapse at any moment, a country with a sizable military and Nukes, would be more of a threat than Iran if they had a radical government. Countries in Africa where there is absolutely no law what so ever, effecting shipping lanes around the continent. Even stable modern places like Saudi Arabia could transform into a hostile nation given the right conditions. The whole deal is a powder keg waiting to explode, and suck us and the West into biting more than we can chew. This isn't the Axis of WWII, its an enemy that will fight with no rules, and impossible to track. Very scary times.....
Really the key to this as we have agreed on is keeping it in the spot light. I just think most American's are tired of hearing about the war and our economy, that they will drop their support for intervention, and when they tune out, so does the politics.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
We will never find out if we don't try. I'm not saying we have to dissolve all our security measures and and start sending them nuclear material. But it means listening to their problems with Israel, and keeping our meddling out of their affairs. We armed and trained Osama Bin Laden. We armed and trained Saddam. We are the ones that installed the first fascist dictator in Iran. Do you see a pattern here? Our first step is to stop disregarding the Muslim world and treating their countries like tools to advance US economic interests. Step two is to stop blindly backing Israel's every insane move out of a misguided "us against them" mentality and start giving legitimate weight to Palestinian grievances.
When we show these people that they can run their countries how they want without the US interfering, their anger will abate. Right now their backs are against the wall. They don't see us as international peacekeepers, they see us as a huge, imperial bully that throws around money and weapons and crushes anyone that defies them. We need to change that image and treat them as equals, not errant children just needing a little injection of western McDonald's driven capitalism. If it doesn't work... our nukes aren't going anywhere. Speak softly, carry a big stick.
Also, it's incredibly fucked up that you say they won't play by the rules like the Axis did... what rules did the Holocaust abide by?
I was refering to actual combat, and adhearing to the LOAC, or what ever you want to call it. The holocaust was not the prime reason for WWII, but if you want to debate about that, we need another tread.
I’m not advocating total war, but we are in the middle of this, we can’t back out like we have in the past, how many times do we have to repeat this until we learn?
We keep getting "in the middle of this." That's what we keep repeating, and that's EXACTLY what we need to learn from and stop doing altogether. Getting in the middle of it all is the problem, because it always begets the bigger problem of 'getting out' or 'getting the job done' which never, ever results in anything but death and destruction for all parties involved, and well-deserved resentment towards our government. Then we, the people get unfortunately and unfairly lumped as supporters of our government's moronic policies towards everyone else in the world. Then WE become the victims-- of taxation, loss of civil liberties, and sometimes we get attacked. It's awful. The people making the decisions for us, which put us in harm's way are always safe.
And what are we fighting? It's just a different 'ism' each time. Communism, Terrorism, etc... And guess what? It turns out that a few thousand people in the terrorism camp have had more bite than the bark of the millions in the communism camp. I don't think you can defeat any 'ism' with guns and bombs-- after all, it is a idea that is being fought.
We have no Constitutional authority to police the world, and this was for all of the above reasons, and one more: BLOWBACK. All they while, we spread 'democracy' all over the world like it's a good thing? Last I checked-- we WERE, LEGALLY, A REPUBLIC. I'd like to find the prick that brought 'democracy' to America and kick him square in the scrotum. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. You can see how when the rights of the individual aren't protected FIRST before majority rule, that it will ultimately lead to some form of authoritarianism. Maybe this is just another reason there is so much contempt worldwide for this piece of North America?
Our elected officials are guilty of every crime in the book. Treason being #1. The rest of us are mostly guilty for being consumed with who is Paris Hilton's newest BFF and being completely ignorant to the fact that we elect CRIMINALS that rob us of our lives, liberty, and property.
Were the Russians not our allies in WWII? How come it only took a matter of a few short years, maybe even only months after WWII before the Cold War officially began? How does this even happen?
How many of our current enemies have been armed by us in the past?
The way out of this downward spiral is clearly not more of this same bullshit cycle that we've been involved in since the early 1900s. We need to get out of the business of the rest of the world, and let them determine themselves. Period. We don't even remember who the fuck we are anymore: A constitutional Republic. How the hell are we supposed to tell the rest of the world who they are, if we don't even know ourselves? It's a question that wasn't meant to be asked.
I’m not advocating total war, but we are in the middle of this, we can’t back out like we have in the past, how many times do we have to repeat this until we learn?
We keep getting "in the middle of this." That's what we keep repeating, and that's EXACTLY what we need to learn from and stop doing altogether. Getting in the middle of it all is the problem, because it always begets the bigger problem of 'getting out' or 'getting the job done' which never, ever results in anything but death and destruction for all parties involved, and well-deserved resentment towards our government. Then we, the people get unfortunately and unfairly lumped as supporters of our government's moronic policies towards everyone else in the world. Then WE become the victims-- of taxation, loss of civil liberties, and sometimes we get attacked. It's awful. The people making the decisions for us, which put us in harm's way are always safe.
And what are we fighting? It's just a different 'ism' each time. Communism, Terrorism, etc... And guess what? It turns out that a few thousand people in the terrorism camp have had more bite than the bark of the millions in the communism camp. I don't think you can defeat any 'ism' with guns and bombs-- after all, it is a idea that is being fought.
We have no Constitutional authority to police the world, and this was for all of the above reasons, and one more: BLOWBACK. All they while, we spread 'democracy' all over the world like it's a good thing? Last I checked-- we WERE, LEGALLY, A REPUBLIC. I'd like to find the prick that brought 'democracy' to America and kick him square in the scrotum. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. You can see how when the rights of the individual aren't protected FIRST before majority rule, that it will ultimately lead to some form of authoritarianism. Maybe this is just another reason there is so much contempt worldwide for this piece of North America?
Our elected officials are guilty of every crime in the book. Treason being #1. The rest of us are mostly guilty for being consumed with who is Paris Hilton's newest BFF and being completely ignorant to the fact that we elect CRIMINALS that rob us of our lives, liberty, and property.
Were the Russians not our allies in WWII? How come it only took a matter of a few short years, maybe even only months after WWII before the Cold War officially began? How does this even happen?
How many of our current enemies have been armed by us in the past?
The way out of this downward spiral is clearly not more of this same bullshit cycle that we've been involved in since the early 1900s. We need to get out of the business of the rest of the world, and let them determine themselves. Period. We don't even remember who the fuck we are anymore: A constitutional Republic. How the hell are we supposed to tell the rest of the world who they are, if we don't even know ourselves? It's a question that wasn't meant to be asked.
Thats a lot chew in one post.
All I can say is isolation from the world's problems isn't going to solve anything. The world is getting too small for that, we will be apart of it whether you like it or not, its unavoidable.
Just wondering, name some civil liberties you've been denied of? But we should start another thread for that as well.
violence is not a solution. in fact it perpetuates the problem. which, it seems to me, is what you are suggesting, mutha judson. a war on terrorism.
the sporadic acts of terrorism in the past decade or so have had very clear reasons behind their actions.
radical Islamic extremists are pissed because the US has troops near Islam's holiest of sites, Mecca. they are pissed because the US arms and supports a racist regime in Israel. they are pissed because the US has directly invaded and occupied a country in the middle east. their grievances are very clear.
US foreign policy is the number one cause of terrorism. in the 80's the cia even distributed thousands of textbooks teaching the more militant side of Islam to the people of Afghanistan. if 9/11 spawned there we have only the US government to blame.
and to be sure, US foreign policy has been very aggressive towards any Islamic fundamentalism in the past. the saudis have a very strict royal family, supported by the US. pakistan is the same. Israel exists with massive US military support. Iraq was directly invaded. afghanistan was directly invaded. any dissent has been dealt with very forcefully.
so has violence worked so far? it seems they are just as pissed or more so than ever before. your video is proof of that. they are still very determined to cause significant damage in the US.
so violence hasn't worked. isn't working. will never work. its time for a new approach.
I’m not advocating total war, but we are in the middle of this, we can’t back out like we have in the past, how many times do we have to repeat this until we learn?
We keep getting "in the middle of this." That's what we keep repeating, and that's EXACTLY what we need to learn from and stop doing altogether. Getting in the middle of it all is the problem, because it always begets the bigger problem of 'getting out' or 'getting the job done' which never, ever results in anything but death and destruction for all parties involved, and well-deserved resentment towards our government. Then we, the people get unfortunately and unfairly lumped as supporters of our government's moronic policies towards everyone else in the world. Then WE become the victims-- of taxation, loss of civil liberties, and sometimes we get attacked. It's awful. The people making the decisions for us, which put us in harm's way are always safe.
And what are we fighting? It's just a different 'ism' each time. Communism, Terrorism, etc... And guess what? It turns out that a few thousand people in the terrorism camp have had more bite than the bark of the millions in the communism camp. I don't think you can defeat any 'ism' with guns and bombs-- after all, it is a idea that is being fought.
We have no Constitutional authority to police the world, and this was for all of the above reasons, and one more: BLOWBACK. All they while, we spread 'democracy' all over the world like it's a good thing? Last I checked-- we WERE, LEGALLY, A REPUBLIC. I'd like to find the prick that brought 'democracy' to America and kick him square in the scrotum. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. You can see how when the rights of the individual aren't protected FIRST before majority rule, that it will ultimately lead to some form of authoritarianism. Maybe this is just another reason there is so much contempt worldwide for this piece of North America?
Our elected officials are guilty of every crime in the book. Treason being #1. The rest of us are mostly guilty for being consumed with who is Paris Hilton's newest BFF and being completely ignorant to the fact that we elect CRIMINALS that rob us of our lives, liberty, and property.
Were the Russians not our allies in WWII? How come it only took a matter of a few short years, maybe even only months after WWII before the Cold War officially began? How does this even happen?
How many of our current enemies have been armed by us in the past?
The way out of this downward spiral is clearly not more of this same bullshit cycle that we've been involved in since the early 1900s. We need to get out of the business of the rest of the world, and let them determine themselves. Period. We don't even remember who the fuck we are anymore: A constitutional Republic. How the hell are we supposed to tell the rest of the world who they are, if we don't even know ourselves? It's a question that wasn't meant to be asked.
Thats a lot chew in one post.
All I can say is isolation from the world's problems isn't going to solve anything. The world is getting too small for that, we will be apart of it whether you like it or not, its unavoidable.
Just wondering, name some civil liberties you've been denied of? But we should start another thread for that as well.
It is a lot to chew, and a lot of hard-to-swallow truth. We are not angels. The relationship with our country should be looked upon like that member of your family that you see destroying him or herself with some deadly addiction-- if you want to help them out (and ultimately yourself, as that person has become a burden on you), it takes brutal honesty with that person to make them realize their problems. Taking a completely objective look at our history from the standpoint of any nation outside of us, namely any country we've entered into conflict with, or any country in which our government had a role in installing their government, and you will find that we are NOT heroes to them. We are simply a country acting pragmatically, often times at the defeat of others.
I believe that every country in this world will someday be 'America' (not literally, hopefully). There are two Americas, though. There's the one that our founders intended us to be, and then there's America the super-power. Super-power America only encourages other countries to try and become the same huge flexing entity out of the necessity of protecting themselves against the Super-power. Put it this way MJ, even if everything our nation has done throughout history has been out of 100% absolutley good intentions, it doesn't change the fact that we are viewed as a big, clumsy, imperialist BULLY. But, we have all the money (but are somehow 13 trillion in debt), and the power, so as a foreign county you either have to be friends with us, or arm yourselves in case we accidentally roll over you in our sleep. I think we can both agree our intentions haven't been for the 100% greater good of all humanity, either.
Yes the world is shrinking because of technology. But, just because we are more connected than ever before via airplanes and computers that we have to be involved in solving other countries' problems. I'd say it's completely arrogant to even assume that's our role-- who are we to tell other people how to live? It should be up to us as individual citizens whether or not we help other countries, not stricly the US government and our almost equally despised 'allies.' We need self-determinaton to happen everywhere, and on every level, from individuals right up through the governments that SERVE THEM. This is how ourselves, and other countries will bring themselves to be like the America that the founders intended-- by example, not by force. There's a lot of lives, liberty, and money to be saved in the process for us too. Talk about pragmatism that works for everyone else as well!
As for civil liberties, we have enacted laws that broadly define who is a 'terrorist' and an 'enemy combatant.' Basically, it is not up to courts who these people are, but by the department of homeland security, and other big government bureacracy that has been created post-9/11. For these people, there no longer has to be a trial by jury. Now here I am online, openly railing against the size of the government, and how we need radical change, back to the way things were intended to be by the founding fathers. Maybe I partake in teleconferences to organize protests against laws like the Patriot Act, or the Military Comissions Act, etc... and all of my conversations aren't wiretapped, as they no longer need to use warrants? Who is to say edited versions of my taped phone calls couldn't be used against me as 'evidence'? If I wrote something 'threatening' enough on this board, on a place where I choose a name that keeps me somewhat anonymous, they can find out who I am, and monitor me. The question is, am I a 'terrorist' or an 'enemy combatant'? Of course not! But in the interest of protecting themselves, maybe the department of homeland security wants to tell me that I am, because I would love to see that agency ABOLISHED. All of this worthless information they're gathering isn't doing us any good! It is only costing us more money, which is taxpayer dollars, which restricts me from spending and saving the way I want. Unnecessary war, surveillance, more spending, more taxes, etc... That is loss of liberty. No one ever thinks of the financial impact of this police state we have created. We're looking for needles (a few bad eggs), but we are CREATING HAYFIELDS (monitoring millions of more people than we need to) in which to find them. I've known people who couldn't board airplanes and missed flights because they were on watchlists. Supposedly the FBI watchlist has upwards of a million people on it (I think the ACLU was the source on that one). When you have 1,000,000 people that supposedly want to knock you off, there is a problem somewhere. Either the list is too huge, and inadequately serves to find the few hundred or maybe thousand that you REALLY need to focus your resources on, OR YOU (the government) MIGHT JUST BE THE PROBLEM. My cousin spent two months in jail, after having his door kicked in in the middle of the night, kids screaming, and was prohibited from being able to talk to a lawyer or his family for those two months... and he wasn't a terrorist, nor did he kill anyone, rape anyone, or commit any violent crime (or any crime AT ALL as I undertand it). Is this not fucked up?
So are my civil liberties personally being breached? I can't say for sure, how would I know? But P-R-I-V-A-C-Y is priceless to me, and a lot of other hard-working law-abiding citizens of this country. Whatever happened to protection against unreasonable search and seizure as guranteed by the fourth amendment? Keep this in mind, the government has given itself the legal authority to spy on anyone, at any time, and yet they, PUBLIC officials operate in SECRET ALL OF THE TIME. They wouldn't even let us read the fuckin stimulus bill before they signed it into law, let alone half of Congress!
MJ, it's pretty obvious that we need to focus on this place, and not the rest of the world. The only question is, do we act in good faith and get out of everyone's business immediately or slowly transition our way out of the tangled mess that we've helped create everywhere?
Oh please Mr. terrorist don't cut my head off. :roll: You can't reason with these people. They have been brain washed since child hood. Did you not see the part where the mother was being interviewed about being a marter? She encouraged 2 of her sons to become suicide bombers. :shock: and would be willing to let the rest of her children do the same :( :shock:
Oh please Mr. terrorist don't cut my head off. :roll: You can't reason with these people. They have been brain washed since child hood. Did you not see the part where the mother was being interviewed about being a marter? She encouraged 2 of her sons to become suicide bombers. :shock: and would be willing to let the rest of her children do the same :( :shock:
Of course they can't be reasoned with. Half of the world can't be reasoned with, and that's why we shouldn't have anything to do with them. The fact of the matter is, we are breeding more of them with our current set of policies. Just what are we trying to achieve here? I thought we were trying to rid the world of terrorism, not create more of it?
Oh please Mr. terrorist don't cut my head off. :roll: You can't reason with these people. They have been brain washed since child hood. Did you not see the part where the mother was being interviewed about being a marter? She encouraged 2 of her sons to become suicide bombers. :shock: and would be willing to let the rest of her children do the same :( :shock:
what's your solution...? do we kill all those who've been "brainwashed"....?
violence is not a solution. in fact it perpetuates the problem. which, it seems to me, is what you are suggesting, mutha judson. a war on terrorism.
the sporadic acts of terrorism in the past decade or so have had very clear reasons behind their actions.
radical Islamic extremists are pissed because the US has troops near Islam's holiest of sites, Mecca. they are pissed because the US arms and supports a racist regime in Israel. they are pissed because the US has directly invaded and occupied a country in the middle east. their grievances are very clear.
US foreign policy is the number one cause of terrorism. in the 80's the cia even distributed thousands of textbooks teaching the more militant side of Islam to the people of Afghanistan. if 9/11 spawned there we have only the US government to blame.
and to be sure, US foreign policy has been very aggressive towards any Islamic fundamentalism in the past. the saudis have a very strict royal family, supported by the US. pakistan is the same. Israel exists with massive US military support. Iraq was directly invaded. afghanistan was directly invaded. any dissent has been dealt with very forcefully.
so has violence worked so far? it seems they are just as pissed or more so than ever before. your video is proof of that. they are still very determined to cause significant damage in the US.
so violence hasn't worked. isn't working. will never work. its time for a new approach.
I full agree with you its time for a different approach, but my worry here is with people loosing track of it completely. If ending our military actions and reverse our policies changes the problem, then I'm all for it. That would be THE answer everyone is looking for. The only issue I have with that is the practicality of it. We are already so deep in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is no way we could successful do what you described. They need our help getting them back on their feet, and the only way this is going to happen is time and money. We are in the process of letting them defend and govern themselves as it is. Now that Iraq has the status of forces agreement, the US military is restricted greatly from independent operations in Iraq. I don't know if you want to call that progress, but it gives the Iraq government more control of their situation.
I will not pretend to be an expert on the history of Islamic Jihadism, nor can anyone here. I think its easy to play the "Chicken or the Egg" context in this argument. I'm not that well informed to comment on it.
The "ball" is already rolling so to speak, we can change directions, but stopping would be the worst possible scenario.
So are my civil liberties personally being breached? I can't say for sure, how would I know? But P-R-I-V-A-C-Y is priceless to me, and a lot of other hard-working law-abiding citizens of this country. Whatever happened to protection against unreasonable search and seizure as guranteed by the fourth amendment? Keep this in mind, the government has given itself the legal authority to spy on anyone, at any time, and yet they, PUBLIC officials operate in SECRET ALL OF THE TIME. They wouldn't even let us read the fuckin stimulus bill before they signed it into law, let alone half of Congress!
MJ, it's pretty obvious that we need to focus on this place, and not the rest of the world. The only question is, do we act in good faith and get out of everyone's business immediately or slowly transition our way out of the tangled mess that we've helped create everywhere?
I just want to tell you thanks for taking the time to write this post. I'm not being a sarcastic ass, I know it takes a lot of time to write this much in length and I read every word of it. I respect anyone who takes the time out to voice their opinions in a logical, well thought out post, with out attacking people personally (pet peeve of mine).
Sorry about your cousin, and I do remember talking to you about this in other post in the past.
To answer your last question, a slow transition is the only way, like I've posted before, we are so deep in our current situation, bailing on it now would make an already fucked up situation worse.
I don't think everything we have done in our history has been with good intention, but at the same time I do feel that most of what we do is with good intention. We can both agree that the world is shrinking, and if want to maintain our current lifestyle in the US, we will always be a "leader" so to speak, in the world. I don't care how you look at that title, but its the truth. We are a nation of consumers, the rest of the world wants our business, and with business comes responsibility that our partners remain stable to continue relations with us....economically and politically.
America is not going to reverse its direction, people here came to the states to "live the America dream", they want nothing less. I'm in no way condemning or endorsing it, its just a fact. So in the big picture, we have our relationship with the rest of the world due to our own lifestyle here in the states. This isn't going to change, we will run into minor hiccups like our current economy, but make no mistake, America isn't going to change its lifestyle, people come here to partake in it. Once again, I'm in no way indorsing it, just stating what we already know. If we want to continue or ways of consuming, then we need to understand that we will always be drawn to getting involved in world affairs.
Oh please Mr. terrorist don't cut my head off. :roll: You can't reason with these people. They have been brain washed since child hood. Did you not see the part where the mother was being interviewed about being a marter? She encouraged 2 of her sons to become suicide bombers. :shock: and would be willing to let the rest of her children do the same :( :shock:
what's your solution...? do we kill all those who've been "brainwashed"....?
Of course not.. I think we could start by trying to rehabilitate the parents first if that's even possible and then some major counseling for the kids. just a thought. what do you think we should do?
Oh please Mr. terrorist don't cut my head off. :roll: You can't reason with these people. They have been brain washed since child hood. Did you not see the part where the mother was being interviewed about being a marter? She encouraged 2 of her sons to become suicide bombers. :shock: and would be willing to let the rest of her children do the same :( :shock:
what's your solution...? do we kill all those who've been "brainwashed"....?
Of course not.. I think we could start by trying to rehabilitate the parents first if that's even possible and then some major counseling for the kids. just a thought. what do you think we should do?
Bring our troops home, put them on our borders, and make sure those idiots never set foot on American soil. Then let them turn their impotent wrath on their own government until that government starts treating its citizens better. It's a better idea than going over there, blowing up their children and their children's children ourselves, or rounding up the men and giving them weapons and training and telling them to blow up Soviets instead.
So are my civil liberties personally being breached? I can't say for sure, how would I know? But P-R-I-V-A-C-Y is priceless to me, and a lot of other hard-working law-abiding citizens of this country. Whatever happened to protection against unreasonable search and seizure as guranteed by the fourth amendment? Keep this in mind, the government has given itself the legal authority to spy on anyone, at any time, and yet they, PUBLIC officials operate in SECRET ALL OF THE TIME. They wouldn't even let us read the fuckin stimulus bill before they signed it into law, let alone half of Congress!
MJ, it's pretty obvious that we need to focus on this place, and not the rest of the world. The only question is, do we act in good faith and get out of everyone's business immediately or slowly transition our way out of the tangled mess that we've helped create everywhere?
I just want to tell you thanks for taking the time to write this post. I'm not being a sarcastic ass, I know it takes a lot of time to write this much in length and I read every word of it. I respect anyone who takes the time out to voice their opinions in a logical, well thought out post, with out attacking people personally (pet peeve of mine).
Sorry about your cousin, and I do remember talking to you about this in other post in the past.
To answer your last question, a slow transition is the only way, like I've posted before, we are so deep in our current situation, bailing on it now would make an already fucked up situation worse.
I don't think everything we have done in our history has been with good intention, but at the same time I do feel that most of what we do is with good intention. We can both agree that the world is shrinking, and if want to maintain our current lifestyle in the US, we will always be a "leader" so to speak, in the world. I don't care how you look at that title, but its the truth. We are a nation of consumers, the rest of the world wants our business, and with business comes responsibility that our partners remain stable to continue relations with us....economically and politically.
America is not going to reverse its direction, people here came to the states to "live the America dream", they want nothing less. I'm in no way condemning or endorsing it, its just a fact. So in the big picture, we have our relationship with the rest of the world due to our own lifestyle here in the states. This isn't going to change, we will run into minor hiccups like our current economy, but make no mistake, America isn't going to change its lifestyle, people come here to partake in it. Once again, I'm in no way indorsing it, just stating what we already know. If we want to continue or ways of consuming, then we need to understand that we will always be drawn to getting involved in world affairs.
That’s just my take on it.....
Thanks! I have no beef with the American people or their lifestyle, aside from the fact that we refuse to remain vigilant in protecting our own freedoms-- however, I do think this is changing for the better, and the number of people who actually care is growing. My beef is with the small group of people who run our country: banks, politicians, and CEOs who use the government as means of creating monopoly for their business. All they do is put us in jeopardy, and rob us constantly. The collective apathy on our part is what allows this all to happen.
Therefore, its not the lifestyle of people like you and me that have gotten us entangled in this giant mess with the rest of the world, it's the people I've mentioned above. We can trade openly with almost every country in the world, if both parties agree to do things fairly. If not, we are BLESSED with some of the world's most innovative minds, and natural resources. If it were all really about oil, I say FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST. We do have it here. I'm not in favor of this at all, as it is completely unconstitutional, but by executive order, Barack Obama can literally have us mobilized to drill anywhere in this country starting tomorrow with the stroke of a pen.
We need to start selling off our bases one by one everywhere, if not demolish them first, before re-selling the land back to the host country. All of the revenue from their re-sale, combined with the amount of money we'd save from not operating overseas would have our debts cut in half in a few years. I'd pay back China, and I'd tell the Federal Reserve that our debt to them is FAKE AND BULLSHIT, so they can pretty much pound salt.
Seriously, the worse thing that could happen if we were to gradually decrease the empire is some real, unprovoked agression from another country, and then we'd be acting justly in going over there to do what we need to do, with a real declaration of war from congress, of course. Even Halliburton, KBR, and every other private contractor can't argue with that-- they'd get all of their contracts back in a heartbeat.
It's worth a shot. Anything aside from what we're doing right now is worth a shot.
What the OP needs to remember is that terrorism is a very very subjective term, and has been around for a long time, 9/11 didn't define it, nor did any middle eastern groups.
Depending on what side of the fence you sit on, you could be called a freedom fighter or a terrorist. It's too simple to say that these people are all maniacs and want us all dead. The real question that needs to be asked is why? Until anyone in power cares to ask that, I believe America has someone now who is brave enough to do just that, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of old.
Take my own country as an example, years of mismanagement from our colonial overlords ensured that there was a hotbed of insurgent activity culminating in a war of independence in the 1920's. Ireland and England scrapped with eachother for the bones of 800 years, a hell of a lot longer than the the US and any group.
For a long time to be an Irish person living in the UK, during the troubles, was a challange to say the least, and God help you if you wanted to use the airports in the UK. Certain elements of the British media portrayed the Irish in exactly the same lite as the OP's video, it only helped to fuel the fires of pure blind ignorance. The hypocrasy of calling someone brainwashed because they don't believe the same things you do, value what you do, dress like you do, I'm sure is not lost on a lot of people in here. They are no more brainwashed than you are and if you believe that they are out to get you (like the boogyman under your bed) for no other reason than because of where you are from, then it's time to sit down and educate yourself on their grievances and for the love of God, relax.
But you know what, the two sides had had enough. Each realised that neither side was going to win in any conventional sense, each recognised that the other side had its grievences. They sat down and spoke, and now we have peace, and power sharing between 2 sides who for generations slaughtered eachother on site. Now that's progress.
But here is the irony of it all, America was a catalyst for the current peace process, the Clinton administration ensured that both sides saw sense and put the past where it was meant to be. Time to take your own medicine, 800 years is a long time. Now, people who shot at eachother, and hated everything that each stood for, sit side by side, they may still disagree, but words will always be an acceptable substitute for bullets.
When we speak about this in terms of America versus "Islamist Extremists" then it is really time to sit down and take stock, catchy headlines might sell newspapers and up ratings, doesn't mean it's accurate. fast food might taste nice, doesn't mean its good for you.
What the OP needs to remember is that terrorism is a very very subjective term, and has been around for a long time, 9/11 didn't define it, nor did any middle eastern groups.
Depending on what side of the fence you sit on, you could be called a freedom fighter or a terrorist. It's too simple to say that these people are all maniacs and want us all dead. The real question that needs to be asked is why? Until anyone in power cares to ask that, I believe America has someone now who is brave enough to do just that, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of old.
Take my own country as an example, years of mismanagement from our colonial overlords ensured that there was a hotbed of insurgent activity culminating in a war of independence in the 1920's. Ireland and England scrapped with eachother for the bones of 800 years, a hell of a lot longer than the the US and any group.
For a long time to be an Irish person living in the UK, during the troubles, was a challange to say the least, and God help you if you wanted to use the airports in the UK. Certain elements of the British media portrayed the Irish in exactly the same lite as the OP's video, it only helped to fuel the fires of pure blind ignorance. The hypocrasy of calling someone brainwashed because they don't believe the same things you do, value what you do, dress like you do, I'm sure is not lost on a lot of people in here. They are no more brainwashed than you are and if you believe that they are out to get you (like the boogyman under your bed) for no other reason than because of where you are from, then it's time to sit down and educate yourself on their grievances and for the love of God, relax.
But you know what, the two sides had had enough. Each realised that neither side was going to win in any conventional sense, each recognised that the other side had its grievences. They sat down and spoke, and now we have peace, and power sharing between 2 sides who for generations slaughtered eachother on site. Now that's progress.
But here is the irony of it all, America was a catalyst for the current peace process, the Clinton administration ensured that both sides saw sense and put the past where it was meant to be. Time to take your own medicine, 800 years is a long time. Now, people who shot at eachother, and hated everything that each stood for, sit side by side, they may still disagree, but words will always be an acceptable substitute for bullets.
When we speak about this in terms of America versus "Islamist Extremists" then it is really time to sit down and take stock, catchy headlines might sell newspapers and up ratings, doesn't mean it's accurate. fast food might taste nice, doesn't mean its good for you.
Comments
No worries. Just trying to keep personalities out of things... we had enough of that under Dubya
But when is it enough? How much appeasement do we have to go through to get them to stop? We can do everything right from this day forward, but is it enough to stop them? I say this now because I really feel that we are at a cross roads right now in regards to this situation. Pakistan could collapse at any moment, a country with a sizable military and Nukes, would be more of a threat than Iran if they had a radical government. Countries in Africa where there is absolutely no law what so ever, effecting shipping lanes around the continent. Even stable modern places like Saudi Arabia could transform into a hostile nation given the right conditions. The whole deal is a powder keg waiting to explode, and suck us and the West into biting more than we can chew. This isn't the Axis of WWII, its an enemy that will fight with no rules, and impossible to track. Very scary times.....
Really the key to this as we have agreed on is keeping it in the spot light. I just think most American's are tired of hearing about the war and our economy, that they will drop their support for intervention, and when they tune out, so does the politics.
I just don't want to wake up one morning to another "how could this have happen to us" moment again. I don’t know about you, but I’m still pretty angry about what happen to us some 8 years ago. We as a country let our guard down, and ingnored the issues, and look what happened. This isn't some lie to scare us, made by G.W., like you said, its been around for a while, they are just getting smarter about how they do things.
We will never find out if we don't try. I'm not saying we have to dissolve all our security measures and and start sending them nuclear material. But it means listening to their problems with Israel, and keeping our meddling out of their affairs. We armed and trained Osama Bin Laden. We armed and trained Saddam. We are the ones that installed the first fascist dictator in Iran. Do you see a pattern here? Our first step is to stop disregarding the Muslim world and treating their countries like tools to advance US economic interests. Step two is to stop blindly backing Israel's every insane move out of a misguided "us against them" mentality and start giving legitimate weight to Palestinian grievances.
When we show these people that they can run their countries how they want without the US interfering, their anger will abate. Right now their backs are against the wall. They don't see us as international peacekeepers, they see us as a huge, imperial bully that throws around money and weapons and crushes anyone that defies them. We need to change that image and treat them as equals, not errant children just needing a little injection of western McDonald's driven capitalism. If it doesn't work... our nukes aren't going anywhere. Speak softly, carry a big stick.
Also, it's incredibly fucked up that you say they won't play by the rules like the Axis did... what rules did the Holocaust abide by?
9/11 didn't surprise me so much that we were attacked, I've always followed world affairs since I was a kid. I remember Somalia, and the first bombing of the towers in the early 90's, and of course Oklahoma city. What did surprise me was how they accomplished it, none of it I feel is far fetched, but it goes beyond a bombing, it really crippled us as a country. What I meant about that statement was the reaction of most American after it happened. Less face it, most people here in the states don't know much about our own country let alone world affairs. (I actually over heard two kids in my one of my college classes argue about how many states there here in the US!) Most Americans didn't know where Afghanistan was before 9/11 nor have they ever heard of Al Qaeda. So for me personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again, but lets say in ten years from now, most Americans are going to say it again if it happens....as if they can't understand why? People have very short memories when it comes to this, and most people don't give a shit as long as it doesn't interrupt their daily lives.
I don't think there is anything you or the handful of people on this board can do right now to stop it. But I want you to remember the Rosie O'Donnell part in the movie, granted shes a complete idiot, but thats not the point. Shes hinting that terrorist are imaginary and made up by the Bush administration to scare people. People like that shape voters minds, and its said to say but it’s the truth. Most people will believe anything the media tells them as fact. Most people are not well informed, and will eat that crap up as truth. Shes not the only one, there are a lot of people out there that think that, and there are even more people who think our policy alone is at fault. With all that’s going on here in America and the new change in leadership, this issue seems to be put on the back burner, at the worst possible time. I’m not advocating total war, but we are in the middle of this, we can’t back out like we have in the past, how many times do we have to repeat this until we learn?
We are at a very important part in history, I really believe this, I just posted this video to remind people that this didn’t go away.
I was refering to actual combat, and adhearing to the LOAC, or what ever you want to call it. The holocaust was not the prime reason for WWII, but if you want to debate about that, we need another tread.
We keep getting "in the middle of this." That's what we keep repeating, and that's EXACTLY what we need to learn from and stop doing altogether. Getting in the middle of it all is the problem, because it always begets the bigger problem of 'getting out' or 'getting the job done' which never, ever results in anything but death and destruction for all parties involved, and well-deserved resentment towards our government. Then we, the people get unfortunately and unfairly lumped as supporters of our government's moronic policies towards everyone else in the world. Then WE become the victims-- of taxation, loss of civil liberties, and sometimes we get attacked. It's awful. The people making the decisions for us, which put us in harm's way are always safe.
And what are we fighting? It's just a different 'ism' each time. Communism, Terrorism, etc... And guess what? It turns out that a few thousand people in the terrorism camp have had more bite than the bark of the millions in the communism camp. I don't think you can defeat any 'ism' with guns and bombs-- after all, it is a idea that is being fought.
We have no Constitutional authority to police the world, and this was for all of the above reasons, and one more: BLOWBACK. All they while, we spread 'democracy' all over the world like it's a good thing? Last I checked-- we WERE, LEGALLY, A REPUBLIC. I'd like to find the prick that brought 'democracy' to America and kick him square in the scrotum. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. You can see how when the rights of the individual aren't protected FIRST before majority rule, that it will ultimately lead to some form of authoritarianism. Maybe this is just another reason there is so much contempt worldwide for this piece of North America?
Our elected officials are guilty of every crime in the book. Treason being #1. The rest of us are mostly guilty for being consumed with who is Paris Hilton's newest BFF and being completely ignorant to the fact that we elect CRIMINALS that rob us of our lives, liberty, and property.
Were the Russians not our allies in WWII? How come it only took a matter of a few short years, maybe even only months after WWII before the Cold War officially began? How does this even happen?
How many of our current enemies have been armed by us in the past?
The way out of this downward spiral is clearly not more of this same bullshit cycle that we've been involved in since the early 1900s. We need to get out of the business of the rest of the world, and let them determine themselves. Period. We don't even remember who the fuck we are anymore: A constitutional Republic. How the hell are we supposed to tell the rest of the world who they are, if we don't even know ourselves? It's a question that wasn't meant to be asked.
Thats a lot chew in one post.
All I can say is isolation from the world's problems isn't going to solve anything. The world is getting too small for that, we will be apart of it whether you like it or not, its unavoidable.
Just wondering, name some civil liberties you've been denied of? But we should start another thread for that as well.
the sporadic acts of terrorism in the past decade or so have had very clear reasons behind their actions.
radical Islamic extremists are pissed because the US has troops near Islam's holiest of sites, Mecca. they are pissed because the US arms and supports a racist regime in Israel. they are pissed because the US has directly invaded and occupied a country in the middle east. their grievances are very clear.
US foreign policy is the number one cause of terrorism. in the 80's the cia even distributed thousands of textbooks teaching the more militant side of Islam to the people of Afghanistan. if 9/11 spawned there we have only the US government to blame.
and to be sure, US foreign policy has been very aggressive towards any Islamic fundamentalism in the past. the saudis have a very strict royal family, supported by the US. pakistan is the same. Israel exists with massive US military support. Iraq was directly invaded. afghanistan was directly invaded. any dissent has been dealt with very forcefully.
so has violence worked so far? it seems they are just as pissed or more so than ever before. your video is proof of that. they are still very determined to cause significant damage in the US.
so violence hasn't worked. isn't working. will never work. its time for a new approach.
It is a lot to chew, and a lot of hard-to-swallow truth. We are not angels. The relationship with our country should be looked upon like that member of your family that you see destroying him or herself with some deadly addiction-- if you want to help them out (and ultimately yourself, as that person has become a burden on you), it takes brutal honesty with that person to make them realize their problems. Taking a completely objective look at our history from the standpoint of any nation outside of us, namely any country we've entered into conflict with, or any country in which our government had a role in installing their government, and you will find that we are NOT heroes to them. We are simply a country acting pragmatically, often times at the defeat of others.
I believe that every country in this world will someday be 'America' (not literally, hopefully). There are two Americas, though. There's the one that our founders intended us to be, and then there's America the super-power. Super-power America only encourages other countries to try and become the same huge flexing entity out of the necessity of protecting themselves against the Super-power. Put it this way MJ, even if everything our nation has done throughout history has been out of 100% absolutley good intentions, it doesn't change the fact that we are viewed as a big, clumsy, imperialist BULLY. But, we have all the money (but are somehow 13 trillion in debt), and the power, so as a foreign county you either have to be friends with us, or arm yourselves in case we accidentally roll over you in our sleep. I think we can both agree our intentions haven't been for the 100% greater good of all humanity, either.
Yes the world is shrinking because of technology. But, just because we are more connected than ever before via airplanes and computers that we have to be involved in solving other countries' problems. I'd say it's completely arrogant to even assume that's our role-- who are we to tell other people how to live? It should be up to us as individual citizens whether or not we help other countries, not stricly the US government and our almost equally despised 'allies.' We need self-determinaton to happen everywhere, and on every level, from individuals right up through the governments that SERVE THEM. This is how ourselves, and other countries will bring themselves to be like the America that the founders intended-- by example, not by force. There's a lot of lives, liberty, and money to be saved in the process for us too. Talk about pragmatism that works for everyone else as well!
As for civil liberties, we have enacted laws that broadly define who is a 'terrorist' and an 'enemy combatant.' Basically, it is not up to courts who these people are, but by the department of homeland security, and other big government bureacracy that has been created post-9/11. For these people, there no longer has to be a trial by jury. Now here I am online, openly railing against the size of the government, and how we need radical change, back to the way things were intended to be by the founding fathers. Maybe I partake in teleconferences to organize protests against laws like the Patriot Act, or the Military Comissions Act, etc... and all of my conversations aren't wiretapped, as they no longer need to use warrants? Who is to say edited versions of my taped phone calls couldn't be used against me as 'evidence'? If I wrote something 'threatening' enough on this board, on a place where I choose a name that keeps me somewhat anonymous, they can find out who I am, and monitor me. The question is, am I a 'terrorist' or an 'enemy combatant'? Of course not! But in the interest of protecting themselves, maybe the department of homeland security wants to tell me that I am, because I would love to see that agency ABOLISHED. All of this worthless information they're gathering isn't doing us any good! It is only costing us more money, which is taxpayer dollars, which restricts me from spending and saving the way I want. Unnecessary war, surveillance, more spending, more taxes, etc... That is loss of liberty. No one ever thinks of the financial impact of this police state we have created. We're looking for needles (a few bad eggs), but we are CREATING HAYFIELDS (monitoring millions of more people than we need to) in which to find them. I've known people who couldn't board airplanes and missed flights because they were on watchlists. Supposedly the FBI watchlist has upwards of a million people on it (I think the ACLU was the source on that one). When you have 1,000,000 people that supposedly want to knock you off, there is a problem somewhere. Either the list is too huge, and inadequately serves to find the few hundred or maybe thousand that you REALLY need to focus your resources on, OR YOU (the government) MIGHT JUST BE THE PROBLEM. My cousin spent two months in jail, after having his door kicked in in the middle of the night, kids screaming, and was prohibited from being able to talk to a lawyer or his family for those two months... and he wasn't a terrorist, nor did he kill anyone, rape anyone, or commit any violent crime (or any crime AT ALL as I undertand it). Is this not fucked up?
So are my civil liberties personally being breached? I can't say for sure, how would I know? But P-R-I-V-A-C-Y is priceless to me, and a lot of other hard-working law-abiding citizens of this country. Whatever happened to protection against unreasonable search and seizure as guranteed by the fourth amendment? Keep this in mind, the government has given itself the legal authority to spy on anyone, at any time, and yet they, PUBLIC officials operate in SECRET ALL OF THE TIME. They wouldn't even let us read the fuckin stimulus bill before they signed it into law, let alone half of Congress!
MJ, it's pretty obvious that we need to focus on this place, and not the rest of the world. The only question is, do we act in good faith and get out of everyone's business immediately or slowly transition our way out of the tangled mess that we've helped create everywhere?
Of course they can't be reasoned with. Half of the world can't be reasoned with, and that's why we shouldn't have anything to do with them. The fact of the matter is, we are breeding more of them with our current set of policies. Just what are we trying to achieve here? I thought we were trying to rid the world of terrorism, not create more of it?
what's your solution...? do we kill all those who've been "brainwashed"....?
I full agree with you its time for a different approach, but my worry here is with people loosing track of it completely. If ending our military actions and reverse our policies changes the problem, then I'm all for it. That would be THE answer everyone is looking for. The only issue I have with that is the practicality of it. We are already so deep in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is no way we could successful do what you described. They need our help getting them back on their feet, and the only way this is going to happen is time and money. We are in the process of letting them defend and govern themselves as it is. Now that Iraq has the status of forces agreement, the US military is restricted greatly from independent operations in Iraq. I don't know if you want to call that progress, but it gives the Iraq government more control of their situation.
I will not pretend to be an expert on the history of Islamic Jihadism, nor can anyone here. I think its easy to play the "Chicken or the Egg" context in this argument. I'm not that well informed to comment on it.
The "ball" is already rolling so to speak, we can change directions, but stopping would be the worst possible scenario.
I just want to tell you thanks for taking the time to write this post. I'm not being a sarcastic ass, I know it takes a lot of time to write this much in length and I read every word of it. I respect anyone who takes the time out to voice their opinions in a logical, well thought out post, with out attacking people personally (pet peeve of mine).
Sorry about your cousin, and I do remember talking to you about this in other post in the past.
To answer your last question, a slow transition is the only way, like I've posted before, we are so deep in our current situation, bailing on it now would make an already fucked up situation worse.
I don't think everything we have done in our history has been with good intention, but at the same time I do feel that most of what we do is with good intention. We can both agree that the world is shrinking, and if want to maintain our current lifestyle in the US, we will always be a "leader" so to speak, in the world. I don't care how you look at that title, but its the truth. We are a nation of consumers, the rest of the world wants our business, and with business comes responsibility that our partners remain stable to continue relations with us....economically and politically.
America is not going to reverse its direction, people here came to the states to "live the America dream", they want nothing less. I'm in no way condemning or endorsing it, its just a fact. So in the big picture, we have our relationship with the rest of the world due to our own lifestyle here in the states. This isn't going to change, we will run into minor hiccups like our current economy, but make no mistake, America isn't going to change its lifestyle, people come here to partake in it. Once again, I'm in no way indorsing it, just stating what we already know. If we want to continue or ways of consuming, then we need to understand that we will always be drawn to getting involved in world affairs.
That’s just my take on it.....
Of course not.. I think we could start by trying to rehabilitate the parents first if that's even possible and then some major counseling for the kids. just a thought. what do you think we should do?
Bring our troops home, put them on our borders, and make sure those idiots never set foot on American soil. Then let them turn their impotent wrath on their own government until that government starts treating its citizens better. It's a better idea than going over there, blowing up their children and their children's children ourselves, or rounding up the men and giving them weapons and training and telling them to blow up Soviets instead.
Thanks! I have no beef with the American people or their lifestyle, aside from the fact that we refuse to remain vigilant in protecting our own freedoms-- however, I do think this is changing for the better, and the number of people who actually care is growing. My beef is with the small group of people who run our country: banks, politicians, and CEOs who use the government as means of creating monopoly for their business. All they do is put us in jeopardy, and rob us constantly. The collective apathy on our part is what allows this all to happen.
Therefore, its not the lifestyle of people like you and me that have gotten us entangled in this giant mess with the rest of the world, it's the people I've mentioned above. We can trade openly with almost every country in the world, if both parties agree to do things fairly. If not, we are BLESSED with some of the world's most innovative minds, and natural resources. If it were all really about oil, I say FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST. We do have it here. I'm not in favor of this at all, as it is completely unconstitutional, but by executive order, Barack Obama can literally have us mobilized to drill anywhere in this country starting tomorrow with the stroke of a pen.
We need to start selling off our bases one by one everywhere, if not demolish them first, before re-selling the land back to the host country. All of the revenue from their re-sale, combined with the amount of money we'd save from not operating overseas would have our debts cut in half in a few years. I'd pay back China, and I'd tell the Federal Reserve that our debt to them is FAKE AND BULLSHIT, so they can pretty much pound salt.
Seriously, the worse thing that could happen if we were to gradually decrease the empire is some real, unprovoked agression from another country, and then we'd be acting justly in going over there to do what we need to do, with a real declaration of war from congress, of course. Even Halliburton, KBR, and every other private contractor can't argue with that-- they'd get all of their contracts back in a heartbeat.
It's worth a shot. Anything aside from what we're doing right now is worth a shot.
Depending on what side of the fence you sit on, you could be called a freedom fighter or a terrorist. It's too simple to say that these people are all maniacs and want us all dead. The real question that needs to be asked is why? Until anyone in power cares to ask that, I believe America has someone now who is brave enough to do just that, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of old.
Take my own country as an example, years of mismanagement from our colonial overlords ensured that there was a hotbed of insurgent activity culminating in a war of independence in the 1920's. Ireland and England scrapped with eachother for the bones of 800 years, a hell of a lot longer than the the US and any group.
For a long time to be an Irish person living in the UK, during the troubles, was a challange to say the least, and God help you if you wanted to use the airports in the UK. Certain elements of the British media portrayed the Irish in exactly the same lite as the OP's video, it only helped to fuel the fires of pure blind ignorance. The hypocrasy of calling someone brainwashed because they don't believe the same things you do, value what you do, dress like you do, I'm sure is not lost on a lot of people in here. They are no more brainwashed than you are and if you believe that they are out to get you (like the boogyman under your bed) for no other reason than because of where you are from, then it's time to sit down and educate yourself on their grievances and for the love of God, relax.
But you know what, the two sides had had enough. Each realised that neither side was going to win in any conventional sense, each recognised that the other side had its grievences. They sat down and spoke, and now we have peace, and power sharing between 2 sides who for generations slaughtered eachother on site. Now that's progress.
But here is the irony of it all, America was a catalyst for the current peace process, the Clinton administration ensured that both sides saw sense and put the past where it was meant to be. Time to take your own medicine, 800 years is a long time. Now, people who shot at eachother, and hated everything that each stood for, sit side by side, they may still disagree, but words will always be an acceptable substitute for bullets.
When we speak about this in terms of America versus "Islamist Extremists" then it is really time to sit down and take stock, catchy headlines might sell newspapers and up ratings, doesn't mean it's accurate. fast food might taste nice, doesn't mean its good for you.
Sorry about the rant, thats my 2 cents
Carry on.
Very well said. :!: