http://www.revisionists.com/

MattCameronKicksButt

dunkman wrote:

you're not to say its wrong.. you educate yourself on the subject and then decide if you believe it or not... you dont instantly take a sceptical stance and assume it never happened?

seriously? i'm aghast.

you dont think it happened?

Okay, don't make me state the bloody obvious but what I'm saying is, I'm sure there's a lot untold.

...Where did you get the impression I said it never happened!?! Do you mean that as a kind of figure of speech?

dunkman

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

Okay, don't make me state the bloody obvious but what I'm saying is, I'm sure there's a lot untold.

...Where did you get the impression I said it never happened!?! Do you mean that as a kind of figure of speech?

explain?

TrixieCat

dunkman wrote:

i need to go there.

i've been to 3 or 4 holocaust places and found them to be utterly amazing but incredibly tragic places.

a work mate went to Krakow recently... i also need to go there

It really is such an experience.
We had Holden with us so we couldn't really 'see' everything. You could probably spend a week in there.
There is an exhibit that shows you life in the ghettos through a child's eyes.
I hope you experience it one day.

my2hands

wheres my buddy roland?

this is right up his alley :rolleyes:

MattCameronKicksButt

dunkman wrote:

explain?

Obviously millions of people were killed but how do I know there weren't and are more horrific stories to be told happening right now? I know what you mean, it's not happening on such a large scale, people aren't being 'herded' off in drones to gas chambers but people mention Anne Frank and now Elie Weisel but other people have just as horrific stories to tell. Again, I know Anne Frank's book was more about the timing, the way it was written and is a good book in it's own right but still... you must surely understand what I'm saying even if you don't agree with my sitting on the fence all the time.

dunkman

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

Obviously millions of people were killed but how do I know there weren't and are more horrific stories to be told happening right now? I know what you mean, it's not happening on such a large scale, people aren't being 'herded' off in drones to gas chambers but people mention Anne Frank and now Elie Weisel but other people have just as horrific stories to tell. Again, I know Anne Frank's book was more about the timing, the way it was written and is a good book in it's own right but still... you must surely understand what I'm saying even if you don't agree with my sitting on the fence all the time.

ok.. you've officially lost me?

i'm not talking about right now.

'but other people have just as horrific stories to tell'

what does that mean?

i cant understand what you're saying.. are you saying the Nazis have a story to tell? one of many millions being slaughtered which justified their retaliation against their hook nosed neighbours?

so what are you saying?

jamie uk

Sorry to butt in.
What everyone must remember (mckb in particular) is that at the time the world didn't know that the holocaust was happening, when the Nazis were defeated and the countries were liberated, the holocaust and it's horrors became revealed like nothing the modern world had ever known. To see the actual footage shot by allied soldiers that liberated these camps, and the complete and absolute shock on their faces is to realise just how hard this hit the world when it came out...and this was after six long years of a graphic world war.
There was a terrific docudrama about 5/6 years ago called Nurenburg, starring Alec Baldwin I think, and they mixed real footage with actors and it was harrowing how it came across. They depicted the court room in Nuremburg when the footage was shown first...it just really got across what a complete horrific shock this was to the world.
Sure there's lots of terrible stories to tell, this is just one.

MattCameronKicksButt

dunkman wrote:

?



i cant understand what you're saying.. are you saying the Nazis have a story to tell? one of many millions being slaughtered which justified their retaliation against their hook nosed neighbours?

No, of course not! I'm meaning any war civilian. But nevermind. I agree that what I wrote was pretty stupid, I was just playing devils advocate because that's the way I think. But like I said, nevermind. We're just going round in circles here.

Collin

When people think of revisionists they automatically think about people who deny the holocaust, or down play the cruelty... And that's why revisionists are immediately dismissed or so it seems (one of the posts here said to ignore these people).

I don't understand why it is wrong to investigate what happened. I don't believe we know everything or that all the information we have is correct. After WWII Europe was in ruins, the cold war began and people were so shocked about what happened inside those camps that they said it could never happen again. It's not entirely stupid or foolish to think that some things were exaggerated (especially by the people), parts of information were missing...

I know there was been a lot of research since then as well, but in some countries it's illegal to even question the holocaust.

Anyway, what I'm saying is... these people have every right to investigate the holocaust. There's really nothing wrong with it, imo.

In fact, I'd be more than happy if more revisionist decided to look into my own country's past, namely our little affair in the Belgian Congo. Luckily, some already have... but it's highly controversial here and the people would rather ignore what happened than admit it.

dunkman

jamie uk wrote:

Sorry to butt in.
What everyone must remember (mckb in particular) is that at the time the world didn't know that the holocaust was happening,

actually they did know

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=109

http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/dl/holocaust/holocaustpage.html

on the last page you'll find actual letters from Churchill from 1942 where he has sent Eisenhower pics of a concentration camp.

catefrances

dunkman wrote:

actually they did know

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=109

http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/dl/holocaust/holocaustpage.html

on the last page you'll find actual letters from Churchill from 1942 where he has sent Eisenhower pics of a concentration camp.

thank you dunk. my head just about exploded when i read those first couple of sentences of jamie's. i was unaware that people still think europe and friends didnt know what hitler was doing. this excuse of ignorance still goes on today. when saddam was 'relocating' the kurds, the 'west' thought nothing of it apparently. they chose to believe what saddam was telling them despite knwoing what kind of man he was and despite having the weight of history leaning against them. it is always a cause for concern when a governemnt says they are 'only' relocating people from areas they 'dont belong in' and thats it for their own good and protection.

catefrances

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

Okay, don't make me state the bloody obvious but what I'm saying is, I'm sure there's a lot untold.

...Where did you get the impression I said it never happened!?! Do you mean that as a kind of figure of speech?

a lot untold? what do you mean? about what? and from whose perspective do you mean?

MattCameronKicksButt

catefrances wrote:

a lot untold? what do you mean? about what? and from whose perspective do you mean?

From any battle. The link that was at the top of the page didn't say much but another site I went to said that the revisionists study all matter of historical events. I was just using my first paragraph as an example and to try and be on topic.

catefrances

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

From any battle. The link that was at the top of the page didn't say much but another site I went to said that the revisionists study all matter of historical events. I was just using my first paragraph as an example and to try and be on topic.

you were speaking only of battles? you understand why people were taking isssue with your posts, right? they were speaking of the holocaust and from your posts it appeared you were questioning the validity of what were told of the genocide of the jews during WWII.

MattCameronKicksButt

catefrances wrote:

you were speaking only of battles? you understand why people were taking isssue with your posts, right? they were speaking of the holocaust and from your posts it appeared you were questioning the validity of what were told of the genocide of the jews during WWII.

No, I was also talking about the many governments that let their people starve and keep money for themselves and their families. And governments that won't give their people a national health service but spend it on...
If you actually look at my posts, I DID say it probably seemed insensitive and that I was originally playing devils advocate. But no matter how ridiculous something might seem, it is possible to try and see it from both sides. That's all I was saying but I think dunk's first post was the most sensible and to the point out of the pair of us.

TrixieCat

Here it is in black and white....what the revisionists say about the holocaust:

"What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was no attempted genocide of the Jews?

The linch-pin in this argument is simply that there were no gas chambers. None. Zero. Nada. There is NO evidence of gas chambers that an objective person can find credible. There is growing credible evidence that what purport to be the remains of gas chambers at Auschwitz, and elsewhere, are frauds - less believable than Potemkin villages. There are NO documents, NO orders, NO planning, NO blueprints, NO photographs, NO autopsies - NOTHING that is definitively or even reasonably credible to support gas chambers. It is not believable that an enterprise as massive as the extermination through gassing of six million people in two or three years in a chaotic environment would not leave behind some physical evidence, some documentary remains. And yet there isn't any. As Professor Arno Mayer, the Princeton historian (who is Jewish), has said, "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." He wouldn't make such an admission if any credible evidence existed. And he was writing in the late 1980's.

What does exist - as Revisionists are as aware as anyone - are, by the tens or even hundreds of thousands, testimonies and confessions. Many, if not most, of the testimonies are preposterous, preternatural, not in keeping with the laws of the physical world. The confessions (were) typically made by persons seeking desperately to curry favor with their captors or their jailers, to save their lives and the lives of their families in the prostrate world of utterly defeated Nazi Germany. Most are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull some more of your fingernails out. Or we'll turn your wife and children over to the Russians."

Also existing are testimonies of survivors of the concentration camps, of camp personnel, of nearby civilians who had some connection or other with the camps, testimonies which completely contradict the notion that massive extermination programs were ongoing. All of these testimonies are of course discounted and denigrated because they do not further Holocaustery. And then there are the aerial photographs made during the war by allied fly-overs of Auschwitz and other camps which lend no support whatever to the Holocaust story.

Why would so many people lie? is the question invariably put to Revisionists. Some lie because it is quite profitable. There is no business like Shoah Business, said one Jewish observer some years ago in a candid moment. Others lie because it is helpful to Israel, or for any of thousands of other perfectly understandable reasons. Lying, or mythologizing, is a common human trait according to Joseph Campbell. Many others among the testifiers are not lying. They believe sincerely in what they proclaim about the gas chambers, about having seen them, about having seen the victims, about having seen the smoke rise from the stacks, etc. etc. They are "honest and true believers" (as Elizabeth Loftus would put it) in the myth because it is important to them and to the Jewish people that the myth survive. The Holocaust has become the unifying myth of modern Jewry, as we all know. Even Jews who believe in the Holocaust will admit this if they are honest. Some people believe in Jesus, some in Mohammed, some in the efficacy of crystals, some in the Jewish Holocaust Myth. Revisionists for the most part are non-believers in mythology.

There were no gas chambers but there were many Jews who died or were killed. They were executed by the thousands for opposing German advances toward the east, for partisan activities connected with that opposition, for numerous other reasons. Jews by the tens of thousands died in the concentration camps of deadly epidemics of disease, they died in the latter stages of the war of starvation when Germany was collapsing. (Professor Mayer, a rare historian, has admitted many more Jews died this way than were executed.) How many died during the war? A lot. Most Revisionists would probably say half a million, perhaps as many as a million. But not six million. Too many survived the war for that number to be anything but part of the Jewish Holocaust Myth. If a million did die it was but two per cent of the total slaughter of World War II. That's the reality of the Jewish Holocaust. Two per cent. 98% of the blood bath of World War II involved other than Jews. Why, Revisionists ask, is almost the sole concentration today on Jewish deaths? Why has the Jewish Holocaust become "the" event of the 1930'S and 1940's around which all others revolve including even World War II itself?"

nuffingman

dunkman wrote:

i need to go there.

I've been to 3 or 4 holocaust places and found them to be utterly amazing but incredibly tragic places.

a work mate went to Krakow recently... i also need to go there

I've been to Belson and Sachsenhausen outside Berlin. Reading the accounts and seeing the pictures make you realise what people are capable of.

Have to take you to task over 6 million gassed though. They were gassed, shot, starved, worked to death, tortured and beaten to death.

I'm visiting Crakow next month but don't think I can face Aushwitz after visiting the others.

nuffingman

jamie uk wrote:

Sorry to butt in.
What everyone must remember (mckb in particular) is that at the time the world didn't know that the holocaust was happening, when the Nazis were defeated and the countries were liberated, the holocaust and it's horrors became revealed like nothing the modern world had ever known.

Sadly I think we did know, just like we know what's happening in Zimbabwe but do fuck all about it.

dunkman

nuffingman wrote:

Have to take you to task over 6 million gassed though. They were gassed, shot, starved, worked to death, tortured and beaten to death.

well take me to task all you want baby.. i said this

"i cant think of a time when 6 million people were gassed or killed KNOWINGLY and PURPOSEFULLY in the last 2000 years let alone the last century."

the 'or killed' bit encompasses all methods i feel

dunkman

nuffingman wrote:

Sadly I think we did know, just like we know what's happening in Zimbabwe but do fuck all about it.

we did know... see post #31