I was attacked in my own home today for 40 bucks!!!

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

hmm... so now we can descriminate against white teenage boys, those who don't have a job and those from council estates? Let's see the Americans jump all over THIS one... ah... no... it's just the words 'black' and 'them' ya can't say :( sad SADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD world.

You choose to be a chav, you aren't born one. It's not even a case of social necessity like it might be for a black male with no father in south central LA to join the bloods or the crips, teenagers in britain that become chavs do so because they choose to. I know plenty of people from worse social situations than some chavs who despise them. It's got nothing to do with being from a council estate. I know a chav that went to a grammar school and is at university now. I know people who aren't chavs that are on the dole. Comparing disdain for chavs to racism is ridiculous Helen, it is NOT the same thing

Heineken Helen

Danimal wrote:

Now from reading this #3...am I to believe that the boy's that are hiking are black? Or am I to believe that the boy's parents objected to black people hiking without adult supervision?

I am really confused on this one.

I'm pretty sure the boys parents objected to black people hiking without adult supervision because they will be carrying guns and kill all the other hikers.

I can't believe you'd come out with such an ignorant racist statement :eek: :mad:

Heineken Helen

Jeremy1012 wrote:

You choose to be a chav, you aren't born one. It's not even a case of social necessity like it might be for a black male with no father in south central LA to join the bloods or the crips, teenagers in britain that become chavs do so because they choose to. I know plenty of people from worse social situations than some chavs who despise them. It's got nothing to do with being from a council estate. I know a chav that went to a grammar school and is at university now. I know people who aren't chavs that are on the dole. Comparing disdain for chavs to racism is ridiculous Helen, it is NOT the same thing

oh come on that's like saying 'you choose to be gay, you aren't born one' . And what you're saying about social necessity? There's no social necessity for a fatherless black male in south central to join gangs... I'm sure there are plenty who didn't cos they had a strong mother who raised them right. I don't think I know of ANY chav who became one without any outside influence. It's rare to see a solitary chav

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

oh come on that's like saying 'you choose to be gay, you aren't born one' . And what you're saying about social necessity? There's no social necessity for a fatherless black male in south central to join gangs... I'm sure there are plenty who didn't cos they had a strong mother who raised them right. I don't think I know of ANY chav who became one without any outside influence. It's rare to see a solitary chav

I'm fairly sure that the jury is still out on what causes people to be homosexual so let's not go into that, I'm pretty sure upbringing has at least some role to play though. With regards to the gang thing, my point was, chavs don't become chavs because they are living in an environment where their gang of chavs is the only male role model they have to "show them how to be a man". I find it absolutely understandable why gangs in places like LA exist, even if it is a terrible situation. Chavs are people who just relieve their boredom by roving around in homogenous packs of likeminded no hopers. (which yes, might be derived from social situations also but doesn't account for the poor white teenagers who are bored out of their mind who DON'T go around in packs vandalising places). The only reason for their existence is lack of ambition. Chavs have existed in scotland (as Neds) since the 50s in some form or another. My mother was brought up in one of the worst council estates in Glasgow and now lives in the frigging Cotswolds, has a degree and manages an entire department of social services It's not the same thing as race. Unless of course, you want to argue that black people could also strive to escape that term

Heineken Helen

I'm sorry jeremy but you're kinda contradicting yourself when you say:

'Chavs are people who just relieve their boredom (which yes, might be derived from social situations also but doesn't account for the poor white teenagers who are bored out of their mind who DON'T go around in packs vandalising places) by roving around in homogenous packs of likeminded no hopers'

how do you account for the plenty of poor black males from south central who DON'T go around doing drive by shootings? not all poor white people are chavs, just like not all poor black people are in gangs... geez... and I thought I was the racist one

It's possible for EITHER race to come from poverty and thrive. Which is WHY I bring up the social problems and why they need to be discussed... dump a load of poor people (of whatever race) in the one area and there may generally be a lack of ambition as you get used to the lifestyle. BUT if you mix it all up, like in our school there were rich, middle class and poor from each extreme end of the spectrum... and when you're a kid in that kinda place you don't actually KNOW that the poorest kid has less chances than the richest one cos as far as you're concerned you're all the same and you have the same opportunity as the rich kid. BUT if EVERY kid in your school is dirt poor and they're all coming from the same backgrounds, that's all they're gonna know.

acoustic guy

YOU GUYS ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Did anyone sleep?

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm sorry jeremy but you're kinda contradicting yourself when you say:

'Chavs are people who just relieve their boredom (which yes, might be derived from social situations also but doesn't account for the poor white teenagers who are bored out of their mind who DON'T go around in packs vandalising places) by roving around in homogenous packs of likeminded no hopers'

how do you account for the plenty of poor black males from south central who DON'T go around doing drive by shootings? not all poor white people are chavs, just like not all poor black people are in gangs... geez... and I thought I was the racist one

It's possible for EITHER race to come from poverty and thrive. Which is WHY I bring up the social problems and why they need to be discussed... dump a load of poor people (of whatever race) in the one area and there may generally be a lack of ambition as you get used to the lifestyle. BUT if you mix it all up, like in our school there were rich, middle class and poor from each extreme end of the spectrum... and when you're a kid in that kinda place you don't actually KNOW that the poorest kid has less chances than the richest one cos as far as you're concerned you're all the same and you have the same opportunity as the rich kid. BUT if EVERY kid in your school is dirt poor and they're all coming from the same backgrounds, that's all they're gonna know.

Helen, you are the one that compared the disdain of chavs by people in this thread (including me) to the disdain of an entire race. You suggested that I am just as bad as a racist for doing so. This would be quite a trivialisation of race issues. This suggests that either chavs are an entire race of their own, comparable to that of black people and subject to the same parameters of bigotry from non-chavs or that blacks are, as a race, a gang of hoodlums. Now I know you weren't suggesting the latter because you aren't a narrow minded bigot so I dealt with gangs of hoodlums for both chavs and black people. Of course I wasn't saying that all black people are gang members. I know plenty of black people and I know no gang members. matter of fact, the only gang member I know vaguely, friend of a friend, is white. I was simplifying when I was comparing the social situation of chavs to the social situation of gang members in the black community to make a point.

Fuck. my head hurts...

Jeremy1012

acoustic guy wrote:

YOU GUYS ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Did anyone sleep?

Not until 6am this morning... although not because of this thread. It died for a few hours. Maybe it should die for good I feel it cannot be resolved.

Heineken Helen

Jeremy1012 wrote:

Helen, you are the one that compared the disdain of chavs by people in this thread (including me) to the disdain of an entire race. You suggested that I am just as bad as a racist for doing so. This would be quite a trivialisation of race issues. This suggests that either chavs are an entire race of their own, comparable to that of black people and subject to the same parameters of bigotry from non-chavs or that blacks are, as a race, a gang of hoodlums. Now I know you weren't suggesting the latter because you aren't a narrow minded bigot so I dealt with gangs of hoodlums for both chavs and black people. Of course I wasn't saying that all black people are gang members. I know plenty of black people and I know no gang members. matter of fact, the only gang member I know vaguely, friend of a friend, is white. I was simplifying when I was comparing the social situation of chavs to the social situation of gang members in the black community to make a point.

Fuck. my head hurts...

I'm not saying chav's aren't a race, but a stereotype's a stereotype... regardless of your colour. I too come from a country that's put up with it's fair share of shite and if you're gonna be so sensitive about black people, you should be like that with Irish people or every other group of people who've had their share of problems... all I wanna know is if you can't instantaneously hate all black people when you've been robbed by a black person, which may for some be a natural reaction... well then the world's gone nuts. I think there's a little bit of racism in all of us... the fact that some of you think black people can't take a joke or deserve to be spoken to differently than the rest of us... is still singling them out. You are still seeing them as a seperate group of people that we need to be more sensitive towards. We don't! I treat everyone the same and that's the way I feel it should be.

acoustic guy

Okay look.........................
Some Spook, Jigabo, Porch Monkey, Nigga, Spear Chucker Stoll his Money!!!!!
Okay, That is what he is for doing something like that!
That is how I would have described him! I'm Racist!!!!!
I wear whit hoods and bla bla bla!

Holy Fuck!

mookie9999

Heineken Helen wrote:

all I wanna know is if you can't instantaneously hate all black people when you've been robbed by a black person, .

If you're robbed by an Irish person do you instantaneously hate yourself?

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm not saying chav's aren't a race, but a stereotype's a stereotype... regardless of your colour. I too come from a country that's put up with it's fair share of shite and if you're gonna be so sensitive about black people, you should be like that with Irish people or every other group of people who've had their share of problems... all I wanna know is if you can't instantaneously hate all black people when you've been robbed by a black person, which may for some be a natural reaction... well then the world's gone nuts. I think there's a little bit of racism in all of us... the fact that some of you think black people can't take a joke or deserve to be spoken to differently than the rest of us... is still singling them out. You are still seeing them as a seperate group of people that we need to be more sensitive towards. We don't! I treat everyone the same and that's the way I feel it should be.

I understand you better now. I still don't entirely agree but I definitely appreciate what you are saying. It's too unrealistic to expect people not to treat black people differently. Assimilation of a race or culture is offensive, non-blacks have to treat black people equally in spite of the obvious differences between them. Black people are a separate group and I'm sure most wouldn't want to be treated otherwise. Separate does not have to equal inferior or subject to mistreatment and bigotry though.

I agree with you on the immediately adopting a (completely rational, given the circumstances) hatred for whichever type of person attacked you, for a short time, until you calm down and look at the bigger picture. That's obvious. It's a human reaction. The reason why this whole thread escalated though is because the OP, and several thread contributors, took it beyond that level into what could conceivably be called racism. The OP, while seemingly uncomfortable with it and definitely aware of the fact it was wrong, likened himself to a KKK member. The fact he asked if it was ok or not shows he was beyond the angry, jerk-response hate-all-blacks for a moment phase. That's not necessarily racist but it's on shaky ground. Then guys like Indian Summer came in with their retarded views and it all went to shit.

All I'm saying is, please don't suggest that I, or some other people who here who made proper discussion out of this, much like yourself, are to be despised for jumping on some weak liberal "fight for the under dog black man" bandwagon. Political correctness can go fuck itself as far as I'm concerned. I don't think that was necessarily the issue here.

but I appreciate your views. I really do

Heineken Helen

And I appreciate your views too and think we're starting to come to a bit of a middle ground so it wasn't entirely wasted continuing the conversation

Those with indian summers views are pretty much instigating... I have to say I don't ENTIRELY disagree with him but if you're gonna say something like that you need to have facts to back it up. You practically agreed with him too although said that race is not the reason WHY it's like that and I agree with you completely but it still doesn't make him wrong either... that's what I want to get to in threads like this... why IS it like that and how can we change it? Ignoring it or calling those who question it racist won't make it go away but finding a middle ground and discussing it COULD help. I genuinely don't believe anybody WANTS to be racist... and those who are possibly think they have reason to be so people need to understand how they got to be that way. Being abusive won't get them to change their minds either... but I really do believe that everyone has a bit of what we consider to be racism in us. And by that I mean I think we should limit the use of the term racism to those who DO consider other races or groups to be inferior to them. To call someone racist cos they felt the need to point out they're gonna support Obama is just ridiculous.

Danimal

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm pretty sure the boys parents objected to black people hiking without adult supervision because they will be carrying guns and kill all the other hikers.

I can't believe you'd come out with such an ignorant racist statement :eek: :mad:

Oh Lord!

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

And I appreciate your views too and think we're starting to come to a bit of a middle ground so it wasn't entirely wasted continuing the conversation

Those with indian summers views are pretty much instigating... I have to say I don't ENTIRELY disagree with him but if you're gonna say something like that you need to have facts to back it up. You practically agreed with him too although said that race is not the reason WHY it's like that and I agree with you completely but it still doesn't make him wrong either... that's what I want to get to in threads like this... why IS it like that and how can we change it? Ignoring it or calling those who question it racist won't make it go away but finding a middle ground and discussing it COULD help. I genuinely don't believe anybody WANTS to be racist... and those who are possibly think they have reason to be so people need to understand how they got to be that way. Being abusive won't get them to change their minds either... but I really do believe that everyone has a bit of what we consider to be racism in us. And by that I mean I think we should limit the use of the term racism to those who DO consider other races or groups to be inferior to them. To call someone racist cos they felt the need to point out they're gonna support Obama is just ridiculous.

Yes, the Obama argument was just daft. I don't remember who said that actually... but anyway, I agree with pretty much everything in this post, apart from that I practically agreed with Indian Summer's post. I know I said that it is most likely true that the majority of people in the US correctional system are african americans but I also questioned whether or not that was a true representation and I certainly wouldn't suggest that those people should shoulder ALL of the blame. In that sense, I disagree entirely that the minority are the majority of the problem. The majority have a great deal of responsibility for the way the minority act in america. but that's a whole other discussion other than that, I agree with you.

Heineken Helen

Jeremy1012 wrote:

Yes, the Obama argument was just daft. I don't remember who said that actually... but anyway, I agree with pretty much everything in this post, apart from that I practically agreed with Indian Summer's post. I know I said that it is most likely true that the majority of people in the US correctional system are african americans but I also questioned whether or not that was a true representation and I certainly wouldn't suggest that those people should shoulder ALL of the blame. In that sense, I disagree entirely that the minority are the majority of the problem. The majority have a great deal of responsibility for the way the minority act in america. but that's a whole other discussion other than that, I agree with you.

Oh you get me started on rich white men running the world and I SWEAR I'll never shut the fuck up . I've said a few times that the two main things I find wrong with the world are political correctness and money... neither of those are the fault of anyone other than white people... cos yeh, I blame PC (and I mean PC gone mad) on the white people running the world... as a way of shutting up those who question the WAY they're running it.

Rygar

Heineken Helen wrote:

I SWEAR I'll never shut the fuck up .

That is WAY too easy