Lazy ways of debating on the pit

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

oh helen you can't help yourself can you? LMAO!!
anyhoo i know my kids arent perfect cause perfect people are boring and my kids are far from that.

It's fun Cate!

But it's good that you can say that though.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

That is so seriously fucking annoying. Or they say 'what would you know, you don't have what we have' but you're the one they cry to every bloody night :( . I've been 'the friend' on many an occasion and it's soooo infuriating. It's like a kid in our town had a bad speech impediment but the mother refused to believe it and never got him help... now he's a teenager with a bad speech impediment just cos the mother wouldn't listen to outsiders!

difference is... would you ask a speech therapist to sort that or would you listen to Jinty McGinty down the road who works part-time at the butchers?

she didnt take your advice about her son.. thats her ignorance... it doesnt make you an expert on speech impediments.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's fun Cate!

But it's good that you can say that though.

not good. true.

well 2 of them have inherited my temper and though i hardly see that as the reason for them being less than perfect, others would disagree.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

put it this way... i'd rather have advice from an ex-junkie about coming off drugs... i'd rather take the advice of an ex-alcoholic about quitting booze...

How do you know? Have you ever been an ex-alcoholic or an ex junkie? or are you just doing the exact thing you're complaining about?

dunkman wrote:

i remember a thread about a weird heart thing i had a few years back.. i had tons of advice but the one that i took and the one that jumped out at me was a guy called DocChicago... he knew what he was talking about... the others just offered supportive advice... he offered knowledge.

Oh yeh, I understand what you mean... but I bet you didn't tell the other people that you didn't want their support and advice cos they weren't going through it? That wouldn't be very nice You can ignore a piece of advice or you can take it... but it's not nice to put somebody down cos they bothered to GIVE the advice in the first place :(

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

difference is... would you ask a speech therapist to sort that or would you listen to Jinty McGinty down the road who works part-time at the butchers?

she didnt take your advice about her son.. thats her ignorance... it doesnt make you an expert on speech impediments.

who needs to be an expert on speech impediments to know that somebody HAS a speech impediment? the advice I WOULD have given would be to TALK to an expert about it. But it doesn't mean I'm stupid cos I'm not an expert

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

How do you know? Have you ever been an ex-alcoholic or an ex junkie? or are you just doing the exact thing you're complaining about?

i'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who has actually gone through the same thing i was going through rather than someone who has no idea about being addicted to anything.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

How do you know? Have you ever been an ex-alcoholic or an ex junkie? or are you just doing the exact thing you're complaining about?

no i havent... if i was a junkie and i wanted advice about coming off drugs i'd rather speak to an ex-junkie than some college graduate who has only ever taken aspirin. thats not difficult to understand is it?

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh yeh, I understand what you mean... but I bet you didn't tell the other people that you didn't want their support and advice cos they weren't going through it? That wouldn't be very nice You can ignore a piece of advice or you can take it... but it's not nice to put somebody down cos they bothered to GIVE the advice in the first place :(

agree.. i never put them down... but they offered support... not direct action.

Heineken Helen wrote:

who needs to be an expert on speech impediments to know that somebody HAS a speech impediment? the advice I WOULD have given would be to TALK to an expert about it. But it doesn't mean I'm stupid cos I'm not an expert

i never said that... that person doesnt need advice to tell them they have a speech impediment... they most likely know that. the mother would have known that.. she chose to ignore the fact.

this confirms my earlier point... you couldnt help the guy with the speech impediment... so you'd refer the person to an expert. so why do you feel you have the expertise to decide whether a parent should spank their kid? you dont.... you dont have the life experience to say that its ok to spank them.. or that you would... you dont know that.

be like me saying if my wife got Parkinsons could i aid her kill herself... i could sit here and say yes or no... but unless i'm in that situation i dont know.... same as you (or others) who think they could spank their kids... they dont know that yet.. ergo they cant offer the advice on that particular aspect of parenting.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

How do you know? Have you ever been an ex-alcoholic or an ex junkie? or are you just doing the exact thing you're complaining about?

no i havent... if i was a junkie and i wanted advice about coming off drugs i'd rather speak to an ex-junkie than some college graduate who has only ever taken aspirin. thats not difficult to understand is it?

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh yeh, I understand what you mean... but I bet you didn't tell the other people that you didn't want their support and advice cos they weren't going through it? That wouldn't be very nice You can ignore a piece of advice or you can take it... but it's not nice to put somebody down cos they bothered to GIVE the advice in the first place :(

agree.. i never put them down... but they offered support... not direct action.

Heineken Helen wrote:

who needs to be an expert on speech impediments to know that somebody HAS a speech impediment? the advice I WOULD have given would be to TALK to an expert about it. But it doesn't mean I'm stupid cos I'm not an expert

i never said that... that person doesnt need advice to tell them they have a speech impediment... they most likely know that. the mother would have known that.. she chose to ignore the fact.

this confirms my earlier point... you couldnt help the guy with the speech impediment... so you'd refer the person to an expert. so why do you feel you have the expertise to decide whether a parent should spank their kid? you dont.... you dont have the life experience to say that its ok to spank them.. or that you would... you dont know that.

be like me saying if my wife got Parkinsons could i aid her kill herself... i could sit here and say yes or no... but unless i'm in that situation i dont know.... same as you (or others) who think they could spank their kids... they dont know that yet.. ergo they cant offer the advice on that particular aspect of parenting. advice and opinion are 2 different things

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

How do you know? Have you ever been an ex-alcoholic or an ex junkie? or are you just doing the exact thing you're complaining about?

no i havent... if i was a junkie and i wanted advice about coming off drugs i'd rather speak to an ex-junkie than some college graduate who has only ever taken aspirin. thats not difficult to understand is it?

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh yeh, I understand what you mean... but I bet you didn't tell the other people that you didn't want their support and advice cos they weren't going through it? That wouldn't be very nice You can ignore a piece of advice or you can take it... but it's not nice to put somebody down cos they bothered to GIVE the advice in the first place :(

agree.. i never put them down... but they offered support... not direct action.

Heineken Helen wrote:

who needs to be an expert on speech impediments to know that somebody HAS a speech impediment? the advice I WOULD have given would be to TALK to an expert about it. But it doesn't mean I'm stupid cos I'm not an expert

i never said that... that person doesnt need advice to tell them they have a speech impediment... they most likely know that. the mother would have known that.. she chose to ignore the fact.

this confirms my earlier point... you couldnt help the guy with the speech impediment... so you'd refer the person to an expert. so why do you feel you have the expertise to decide whether a parent should spank their kid? you dont.... you dont have the life experience to say that its ok to spank them.. or that you would... you dont know that.

be like me saying if my wife got Parkinsons could i aid her kill herself... i could sit here and say yes or no... but unless i'm in that situation i dont know.... same as you (or others) who think they could spank their kids... they dont know that yet.. ergo they cant offer the advice on that particular aspect of parenting. advice and opinion are 2 different things

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

i'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who has actually gone through the same thing i was going through rather than someone who has no idea about being addicted to anything.

but how do you know they've no idea? I smoke... I know about addictions! Maybe a different KIND. But would you take the advice of somebody who WORKS with addicts? I dunno, it seems to be mainly parents who are sensitive about taking advice on their kids... most other topics don't seem to garner so many 'how would you know?' replies. Is it just the super sensitive parent syndrome?

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

no i havent... if i was a junkie and i wanted advice about coming off drugs i'd rather speak to an ex-junkie than some college graduate who has only ever taken aspirin. thats not difficult to understand is it?




agree.. i never put them down... but they offered support... not direct action.




i never said that... that person doesnt need advice to tell them they have a speech impediment... they most likely know that. the mother would have known that.. she chose to ignore the fact.

this confirms my earlier point... you couldnt help the guy with the speech impediment... so you'd refer the person to an expert. so why do you feel you have the expertise to decide whether a parent should spank their kid? you dont.... you dont have the life experience to say that its ok to spank them.. or that you would... you dont know that.

be like me saying if my wife got Parkinsons could i aid her kill herself... i could sit here and say yes or no... but unless i'm in that situation i dont know.... same as you (or others) who think they could spank their kids... they dont know that yet.. ergo they cant offer the advice on that particular aspect of parenting. advice and opinion are 2 different things

Well then how do YOU know whether or not somebody can spank their kids? As far as I can see even PARENTS can't agree on this topic. It's not like all people without kids are saying spank and all parents are saying no. I DO have life experience to say it's ok to spank them... it IS ok but I've never said parents MUST! Besides, even parents will, or should, admit that they're no experts on parenting. Perhaps at times they refer to experts who may not even have kids. YOU can't tell another parent what's the right thing to do for THEIR kid. Just as I can't. I never ever claimed to be an expert but straight away people were telling me that I'm not... no shit sherlock

mammasan

I'm pretty sure our little spat over on the Train yesterday added to your frustration, i still love ya. And you know you can bash my country anytime. Now let's get back to concepting for our reality election tv show.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

but how do you know they've no idea? I smoke... I know about addictions! Maybe a different KIND. But would you take the advice of somebody who WORKS with addicts? I dunno, it seems to be mainly parents who are sensitive about taking advice on their kids... most other topics don't seem to garner so many 'how would you know?' replies. Is it just the super sensitive parent syndrome?

well you know that doesnt apply to me helen, cause i take issue with anyone about anything, when they just think they know when tis clear they dont... but just wish they did.

as for smoking. my sister is addicted to smoking however as much as i love her i am seriously NOT going to take advice from her when it comes to heroin or booze.

i would listen to what they had to say if they worked with addicts. if i thought it a good idea then sure why not. but knowing myself the way i do and admitting to being stubborn as ten mules when it comes to some things if at any stage i felt that i wasnt getting what it was they were on about then i would dismiss them. i know tis not perhaps the most mature attitude but tis difficult for me to relinquish any part of myself to anyone, let alone to someone who clearly has not had the pleasure of being covered in vomit cause their shot was too strong. not to mention someone whose never had to listen to the primal screams of someone begging them to please get something so they can just be normal when clealry being normal is the furthest thing from their existence. ever held the cold body of a former lover knowing that theres nothing you can do for them cause theyre already gone. this is what i want. i want someone who has gone through what i have gone through. i dotn wnat someone who has read the basketball diaries and goes home to their nice little box, orders in some thai and tells their partner, as he/she rubs their feet, what a dreadful day theyve had dealing with these people who are their own worst enemy a lot of the time. im not saying its essential my counsellor be a former addict but i will bemore inclined to atke heed of their advice and acknowledge their history when i see tis obvious theyve coem through the other side.

Jennytree

dunkman wrote:

i listen to my mids teachers about things concerning their education... but not about how or if i should reprimand them... thats outside their remit.

hmmmm the rape crisis one is a good point... probably very highly trained, probably offering emotional support rather than a direct knowledge of the rape itself.

put it this way... i'd rather have advice from an ex-junkie about coming off drugs... i'd rather take the advice of an ex-alcoholic about quitting booze...

rape, death, cancer, etc... horrific things that require specialist support.. not like the 'advice' given on here which is kinda like asking Stephen Hawking for dancing tips...

i remember a thread about a weird heart thing i had a few years back.. i had tons of advice but the one that i took and the one that jumped out at me was a guy called DocChicago... he knew what he was talking about... the others just offered supportive advice... he offered knowledge.

if i want advice about literature.. i'd ask Finsy... i wouldn't ask Irish Al as he only reads scud mags

Don't like what advice you're given? Then don't come looking for it on a fuckin PEARL JAM message board!!!

also, none of us no anything about Pearl Jam either, cos we haven't been to every show since 1991, so yer not as much of a xhardcorex fan as others. Fuck the lot of ye, I'm a Pearl Jam master cos I have a Pearl Jam tattoo

Heineken Helen

mammasan wrote:

I'm pretty sure our little spat over on the Train yesterday added to your frustration, i still love ya. And you know you can bash my country anytime. Now let's get back to concepting for our reality election tv show.

I still love ya too... and I hear that a lot so it wasn't just cos of you. I love your country, why do ya think I keep going back? I just hate the fuckers who run it cos it really COULD be great.

Oooh yes, extreme election or whatever we could make millions... perhaps we should shut up before the government take it and use it as their own idea :eek:

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

well you know that doesnt apply to me helen, cause i take issue with anyone about anything, when they just think they know when tis clear they dont... but just wish they did.

as for smoking. my sister is addicted to smoking however as much as i love her i am seriously NOT going to take advice from her when it comes to heroin or booze.

i would listen to what they had to say if they worked with addicts. if i thought it a good idea then sure why not. but knowing myself the way i do and admitting to being stubborn as ten mules when it comes to some things if at any stage i felt that i wasnt getting what it was they were on about then i would dismiss them. i know tis not perhaps the most mature attitude but tis difficult for me to relinquish any part of myself to anyone, let alone to someone who clearly has not had the pleasure of being covered in vomit cause their shot was too strong. not to mention someone whose never had to listen to the primal screams of someone begging them to please get something so they can just be normal when clealry being normal is the furthest thing from their existence. ever held the cold body of a former lover knowing that theres nothing you can do for them cause theyre already gone. this is what i want. i want someone who has gone through what i have gone through. i dotn wnat someone who has read the basketball diaries and goes home to their nice little box, orders in some thai and tells their partner, as he/she rubs their feet, what a dreadful day theyve had dealing with these people who are their own worst enemy a lot of the time. im not saying its essential my counsellor be a former addict but i will bemore inclined to atke heed of their advice and acknowledge their history when i see tis obvious theyve coem through the other side.

Ok well that's the best explanation I've heard yet so yeh, that's sunk in. What I DO take issue with is that most advice is given with the best of intentions, to try and help somebody, so for people to knock it is pretty bad. It might make someone think twice about trying to help someone again. It's up to the individual to choose the advice they wanna follow but don't put somebody down for trying to help (most of that WASN'T directed towards you Cate, lol)

Heineken Helen

Jennytree wrote:

Don't like what advice you're given? Then don't come looking for it on a fuckin PEARL JAM message board!!!

also, none of us no anything about Pearl Jam either, cos we haven't been to every show since 1991, so yer not as much of a xhardcorex fan as others. Fuck the lot of ye, I'm a Pearl Jam master cos I have a Pearl Jam tattoo

bet ya don't have a Pearl Jam BOOKMARK though, eh? I'M the bigger fan... anyone can get a bloody tattoo

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Well then how do YOU know whether or not somebody can spank their kids?

i don't offer advice to ANYONE about whether or they should spank their kids... i tell them that i don't and that i wouldn't ever do it.

Heineken Helen wrote:

As far as I can see even PARENTS can't agree on this topic. It's not like all people without kids are saying spank and all parents are saying no.

where does it say we all have to agree? simple fact is i want other PARENTS opinions... its easy to sit in an office and say "i'd spank my kids" when you dont have any... its a whole different matter if you do have them... cousins, nieces, nephews simply dont count.

Heineken Helen wrote:

I DO have life experience to say it's ok to spank them... it IS ok but I've never said parents MUST!

thats your opinion... personally i wouldnt listen to that advice as you dont know if its ok.. you have no idea what would happen to a kid that you smacked.... you spank your niece? do you know if 3 days later she is in her room crying about the time Auntie Helen spanked her? no... because you're not her parent.

if the thread is "parents..." "divorced people...." etc etc.. then it pertains to that group of people. sure you can offer advice but i'd rather hear about divorce from people who have been through it... or i want to hear about parents experiences with their kids rather than some 19 year old student who babysat last July and it was so like a total nightmare.


Your opinion is null cos you've never experienced it.

this is not a lazy way of debating SOME issues... perhaps others it is... but if a virgin offered me sex tips then their opinion is null.. i dont care if their dad wrote the Karma Sutra...

its like a PJ fan who has never been to a concert offering you advice on what to do at your next PJ concert... would you acquiesce and say "but hey... he's been to 7 other concerts... he knows what he's talking about"

i doubt it

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Ok well that's the best explanation I've heard yet so yeh, that's sunk in. What I DO take issue with is that most advice is given with the best of intentions, to try and help somebody, so for people to knock it is pretty bad. It might make someone think twice about trying to help someone again. It's up to the individual to choose the advice they wanna follow but don't put somebody down for trying to help (most of that WASN'T directed towards you Cate, lol)

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i don't offer advice to ANYONE about whether or they should spank their kids... i tell them that i don't and that i wouldn't ever do it.



where does it say we all have to agree? simple fact is i want other PARENTS opinions... its easy to sit in an office and say "i'd spank my kids" when you dont have any... its a whole different matter if you do have them... cousins, nieces, nephews simply dont count.




thats your opinion... personally i wouldnt listen to that advice as you dont know if its ok.. you have no idea what would happen to a kid that you smacked.... you spank your niece? do you know if 3 days later she is in her room crying about the time Auntie Helen spanked her? no... because you're not her parent.

if the thread is "parents..." "divorced people...." etc etc.. then it pertains to that group of people. sure you can offer advice but i'd rather hear about divorce from people who have been through it... or i want to hear about parents experiences with their kids rather than some 19 year old student who babysat last July and it was so like a total nightmare.


Your opinion is null cos you've never experienced it.

this is not a lazy way of debating SOME issues... perhaps others it is... but if a virgin offered me sex tips then their opinion is null.. i dont care if their dad wrote the Karma Sutra...

its like a PJ fan who has never been to a concert offering you advice on what to do at your next PJ concert... would you acquiesce and say "but hey... he's been to 7 other concerts... he knows what he's talking about"

i doubt it

Nah, you're still giving the same boring, predictable, LAZY reasons, each of which I have replied to at LEAST 5 times so I'm not about to do so again

'You're opinion is null cos your Scottish' is probably about as valid as anything you've just said :cool:

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I always read that as people who ONLY have good intentions and never actually act on them? Not as actions which HAVE good intentions

FinsburyParkCarrots

"You think Tool is shit, so therefore you like Creed."

Er, Plato would have something to say about that kind of logical process.

dunkman

Jennytree wrote:

Don't like what advice you're given? Then don't come looking for it on a fuckin PEARL JAM message board!!!

what has that got to do with anything? i asked you for advice about computer stuff.. should i have signed up to microsoft fourms, wait 4 days to be registered.. ask my question and then have 16 geeks laugh at me for being a newb.. or do i just ask you and get an answer in 1.8 minutes?

its a forum full of people in all different walks of life and occupations... some people on here have been homeless.. some are disabled... because its a fucking pj message board doesnt matter a fuck.. is their advice less valid because they like good music?

i don't ask for advice anyway... certainly not in relationships, friendships, emotional shit... i might ask if its ok to wear a red jumper to a funeral but thats because i'm stupid.

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

i would listen to what they had to say if they worked with addicts. if i thought it a good idea then sure why not. but knowing myself the way i do and admitting to being stubborn as ten mules when it comes to some things if at any stage i felt that i wasnt getting what it was they were on about then i would dismiss them. i know tis not perhaps the most mature attitude but tis difficult for me to relinquish any part of myself to anyone, let alone to someone who clearly has not had the pleasure of being covered in vomit cause their shot was too strong. not to mention someone whose never had to listen to the primal screams of someone begging them to please get something so they can just be normal when clealry being normal is the furthest thing from their existence. ever held the cold body of a former lover knowing that theres nothing you can do for them cause theyre already gone. this is what i want. i want someone who has gone through what i have gone through. i dotn wnat someone who has read the basketball diaries and goes home to their nice little box, orders in some thai and tells their partner, as he/she rubs their feet, what a dreadful day theyve had dealing with these people who are their own worst enemy a lot of the time. im not saying its essential my counsellor be a former addict but i will bemore inclined to atke heed of their advice and acknowledge their history when i see tis obvious theyve coem through the other side.

well said... thats what i was getting at also.

giving a parent advice on the spanking of their kid if you are NOT a parent yourself is quite easy... "yeah just hit the little fucker" but when its your own kid and you have to make that step when they misbehave is a whole lot harder than just typing a sentence on a pearl jam message board.

the advice of a non-parent is their opinion and its fine to offer it... but it holds less credence than that of a parent... just as the advice of an ex-addict, to me at least, hold more credence than that of a non-addict... when it comes to handling drug addiction

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nah, you're still giving the same boring, predictable, LAZY reasons, each of which I have replied to at LEAST 5 times so I'm not about to do so again

thats cos they are awesome reasons and you know it.

Heineken Helen wrote:

'You're opinion is null cos your Scottish' is probably about as valid as anything you've just said :cool:

racist now are we?

catefrances

dunkman wrote:

thats cos they are awesome reasons and you know it.




racist now are we?

dunk.. scottish is not a race darlin'

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

thats cos they are awesome reasons and you know it.




racist now are we?

Scots are white... you stupid fucking white bastard so how would that make me racist?

catefrances

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

"You think Tool is shit, so therefore you like Creed."

Er, Plato would have something to say about that kind of logical process.

creed is shit and i like TOOL.

plato?? mickey mouse's dog?

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

dunk.. scottish is not a race darlin'

ah you knew what i meant

anyhow... should i wear this red jumper to a funeral?

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

ah you knew what i meant

anyhow... should i wear this red jumper to a funeral?

how the fuck should I know? I'm not dead and never have been :cool: