Besides Pete Rose and Roger Clemens have nothing in common.
Betting on baseball is illegal in baseball and is a known bannable offense.
HGH use for most of the time when Clemens was using was not even illegal in baseball and when a punishment was put into baseball, it was merely a suspension for a number of games and not a banning for life.
Pete Rose and Roger Clemens are two totally different issues.
I agree with you. generally.
And I dont know why your point about HGH isnt being made more forcefully-yes I took HGH but under the care of my dr and its was not banned at the time.
Perhaps his motives are questionable (they always have been), but he did come clean.
True he came clean 14 years after being accused.
I just kind of find HGH as sort of an individual advantage such as throwing a spitball or doctoring a baseball.
And if known offenders of those offenses got into the hall of fame - Gaylord Perry who wrote a book called Me and the Spitter in the middle of his career and was ejected for throwing spit balls and Don Sutton who was known as Black and Decker for using sandpaper on baseballs and also was ejected from games got into the HOF, I don't see how Clemens doesn't get in eventually.
How about if they strip him of a few Cy youngs or otherwise reduce his win total? (Just playing devils advocate)
Like I said earlier, with 192 wins 3 Cy's and 2,590 ks just in his Red Sox days before any of the dates of the investigation, he would have had more wins then Koufax, been 17th at the time and now 23rd all time in strikeouts, and at the time he would have been tied with Koufax and been second behind Carlton in most Cy Young awards won. Plus at the time he would have been the only pitcher to ever strike out 20 men in a game and did it twice and is the career wins leader in Red Sox history.
So even if you disregard everything he did post Red Sox career, you would have a good case for him as a HOFer.
Definately, the guy was a fantastic pitcher before 1997. 1993-1996 it's pretty obvious he was declining, then he suddenly is back to around the level he was pitching at previously....I feel the same way about Bonds. Great player, deserving of the HOF certainly.... just enhanced by drugs. I don't blame them. Hell there is HUGE money in it. Ticket prices reflect it. Just tell the freaking truth like Pettite did early on when they catch you. Much like Michael Vick, nothing is good for Roger in this situation. It's pretty obvious he feels like he's above the law. Very good pitcher, but he's only what he is now because of performance enhancers. Greatest of all time... nope.
The 93-96 decline talk is overstated. In 1994, his ERA+ was better than it was in 6 of his Cy Young winning seasons. In 1996, his ERA+ was better than it was in 1 of his Cy Young winning seasons.
He probably did use some kind of performance enhancing drugs though.
(Wish I knew what was going on in the hearings, I just got home from 2 classes)
The 93-96 decline talk is overstated. In 1994, his ERA+ was better than it was in 6 of his Cy Young winning seasons. In 1996, his ERA+ was better than it was in 1 of his Cy Young winning seasons.
He probably did use some kind of performance enhancing drugs though.
(Wish I knew what was going on in the hearings, I just got home from 2 classes)
In 1994 he also only threw 170 innings, and in 1995 only 140 innings. Even if his ERA was good, it was still in a lot less work than he was getting in 1992 and before. So though he obviously still had some skill, its not hard to suggest that his health was on the decline at the point.
I just kind of find HGH as sort of an individual advantage such as throwing a spitball or doctoring a baseball.
And if known offenders of those offenses got into the hall of fame - Gaylord Perry who wrote a book called Me and the Spitter in the middle of his career and was ejected for throwing spit balls and Don Sutton who was known as Black and Decker for using sandpaper on baseballs and also was ejected from games got into the HOF, I don't see how Clemens doesn't get in eventually.
In 1994 he also only threw 170 innings, and in 1995 only 140 innings. Even if his ERA was good, it was still in a lot less work than he was getting in 1992 and before. So though he obviously still had some skill, its not hard to suggest that his health was on the decline at the point.
I don't remember if he had an injury in 94, but his last gamelog lists him as playing on August 9th, 1994, and the strike started on August 12th.
After only throwing 140 innings 95, he threw over 240 in 96.
all this talk of past #s and crap really play no part in this at all they have enough evidence on him to really make him look like a fool ...no way does this strategy work for him..
In 1994 he also only threw 170 innings, and in 1995 only 140 innings. Even if his ERA was good, it was still in a lot less work than he was getting in 1992 and before. So though he obviously still had some skill, its not hard to suggest that his health was on the decline at the point.
In 1994, it was the year of the baseball strike so the season ended in mid August with a quarter of the season unplayed.
In 1995, if I remember correctly, he had hamstring problems and missed the first 25 games or so of the season, but that season was also shortened due to the strike. After he returned from the DL, he didn't miss any time that year.
all this talk of past #s and crap really play no part in this at all they have enough evidence on him to really make him look like a fool ...no way does this strategy work for him..
Well he is already been caught in flat out lie, with regards to being at Canseco's party. He doesnt look good at all at this point, thats for sure.
McNamee has a strong aversion to looking the questioning representatives in the eyes. Makes him seem not-very-believable.
All this talk of Clemen's buttocks makes me fear they'll ask him where he was shot--a la Forrest Gump meeting the President.
.
I agree. I haven't seen all of it yet, it's on Tivo. But if you went just bt appearance alone, Clemens looks trustworthy and open. McNamee looks shifty and defensive. he's got his arms crossed, head down. Did you catch when they swore them in? McNamee looked all rumpled, his tie was hanging out of jacket.
A crime was just committed....right in front of everyone.
SOMEONE lied while under oath in front of a Grand Jury.
Who was it?
Clemens. He has already been busted lieing about not being at Canseco's party. McNamee said he was there with his wife, nanny, and kids. And the nanny backed up McNamee story and said she was there with the Clemen's family.
A crime was just committed....right in front of everyone.
SOMEONE lied while under oath in front of a Grand Jury.
Who was it?
The thing is if they believed Clemens, that means Knoblach and Pettitte also lied because they corroborated McNamee's accounts. So would that mean they would also get prosecuted?
The thing is if they believed Clemens, that means Knoblach and Pettitte also lied because they corroborated McNamee's accounts. So would that mean they would also get prosecuted?
and its sad....after 2 years of this nonsense....that...
jose canseco is the only person that has done nothing but be honest......
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
A crime was just committed....right in front of everyone.
SOMEONE lied while under oath in front of a Grand Jury.
Who was it?
Well, it's not technically a Grand Jury. It's a House Committee.
But you're correct in that they are under oath...I think it was McNamee who got badgered about being under oath.
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Clemens. He has already been busted lieing about not being at Canseco's party. McNamee said he was there with his wife, nanny, and kids. And the nanny backed up McNamee story and said she was there with the Clemen's family.
I haven't seen the nanny part yet, so I could be off here. But what about the announcers who said he wasn't at the party, or Canseco who said he was disappointed because his high school coach was there and wanted to meet Clemens? And Darrin fletcher who said he wasn't there?
I haven't seen the nanny part yet, so I could be off here. But what about the announcers who said he wasn't at the party, or Canseco who said he was disappointed because his high school coach was there and wanted to meet Clemens? And Darrin fletcher who said he wasn't there?
I guess they were wrong. Or maybe they were there at different times. Even McNamee said he didnt realize the Clemens were there until he saw the nanny chasing kids around. Clemens and his legal team also didnt give congress the nanny's contact information last week, saying he hadnt spoken to her in 7 years. Yet, they contacted her this weekend and either met, or asked to meet (I wasnt clear on that part) over the weekend, before giving her contact information to congress, and before congress could get her testimony.
He just mentioned playing for his country and for the All-Star Game, while being hurt or out of condition.
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
the simple fact that these grown men, who have made millions of dollars to play a kids game, knowingly gave themselves an tremendously unfair advantage should be enough to completely negate any records, or achievements they have accomplished. period.
and the fact that they have now lied about it, has ruined the game forever in my eyes. and the saddest thing of all is that the kids that idolized these players, play little league with aspirations of being 'like them' one day are forever shattered.
i am enjoying clemens squirm...he should. he's busted, and he knows it.
Comments
I agree with you. generally.
And I dont know why your point about HGH isnt being made more forcefully-yes I took HGH but under the care of my dr and its was not banned at the time.
True he came clean 14 years after being accused.
I just kind of find HGH as sort of an individual advantage such as throwing a spitball or doctoring a baseball.
And if known offenders of those offenses got into the hall of fame - Gaylord Perry who wrote a book called Me and the Spitter in the middle of his career and was ejected for throwing spit balls and Don Sutton who was known as Black and Decker for using sandpaper on baseballs and also was ejected from games got into the HOF, I don't see how Clemens doesn't get in eventually.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
:eek:
this is too much,....
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive
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Like I said earlier, with 192 wins 3 Cy's and 2,590 ks just in his Red Sox days before any of the dates of the investigation, he would have had more wins then Koufax, been 17th at the time and now 23rd all time in strikeouts, and at the time he would have been tied with Koufax and been second behind Carlton in most Cy Young awards won. Plus at the time he would have been the only pitcher to ever strike out 20 men in a game and did it twice and is the career wins leader in Red Sox history.
So even if you disregard everything he did post Red Sox career, you would have a good case for him as a HOFer.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
The 93-96 decline talk is overstated. In 1994, his ERA+ was better than it was in 6 of his Cy Young winning seasons. In 1996, his ERA+ was better than it was in 1 of his Cy Young winning seasons.
He probably did use some kind of performance enhancing drugs though.
(Wish I knew what was going on in the hearings, I just got home from 2 classes)
In 1994 he also only threw 170 innings, and in 1995 only 140 innings. Even if his ERA was good, it was still in a lot less work than he was getting in 1992 and before. So though he obviously still had some skill, its not hard to suggest that his health was on the decline at the point.
no way he gets in at least not for a long time ..
I don't remember if he had an injury in 94, but his last gamelog lists him as playing on August 9th, 1994, and the strike started on August 12th.
After only throwing 140 innings 95, he threw over 240 in 96.
I forgot about the strike, thats a good point.
In 1994, it was the year of the baseball strike so the season ended in mid August with a quarter of the season unplayed.
In 1995, if I remember correctly, he had hamstring problems and missed the first 25 games or so of the season, but that season was also shortened due to the strike. After he returned from the DL, he didn't miss any time that year.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
Well he is already been caught in flat out lie, with regards to being at Canseco's party. He doesnt look good at all at this point, thats for sure.
I agree. I haven't seen all of it yet, it's on Tivo. But if you went just bt appearance alone, Clemens looks trustworthy and open. McNamee looks shifty and defensive. he's got his arms crossed, head down. Did you catch when they swore them in? McNamee looked all rumpled, his tie was hanging out of jacket.
palmiero lied.....
sammy denied..(speaking english)
and i hope clemens gets fried!!!!!
thats my johnny cochran for today....
if it dont fit....
you must acquit..............
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
A crime was just committed....right in front of everyone.
SOMEONE lied while under oath in front of a Grand Jury.
Who was it?
Clemens. He has already been busted lieing about not being at Canseco's party. McNamee said he was there with his wife, nanny, and kids. And the nanny backed up McNamee story and said she was there with the Clemen's family.
The thing is if they believed Clemens, that means Knoblach and Pettitte also lied because they corroborated McNamee's accounts. So would that mean they would also get prosecuted?
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
jose canseco is the only person that has done nothing but be honest......
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
damm that is very hard for me to believe spanish dude not lying in a court room i can't i just can't :eek:
Who'd eveer thought Jose Canseco would be the voice of reason? Looks like I'll be reading "Vindicated" when it hits the shelves.
Well, it's not technically a Grand Jury. It's a House Committee.
But you're correct in that they are under oath...I think it was McNamee who got badgered about being under oath.
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
clemens looks like he wants to just fucking vomit all over himself.....
he is full of shit....
and i wonder if his high priced attorney has explained thoroughly what the meaning of the word "perjury" is.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I haven't seen the nanny part yet, so I could be off here. But what about the announcers who said he wasn't at the party, or Canseco who said he was disappointed because his high school coach was there and wanted to meet Clemens? And Darrin fletcher who said he wasn't there?
I guess they were wrong. Or maybe they were there at different times. Even McNamee said he didnt realize the Clemens were there until he saw the nanny chasing kids around. Clemens and his legal team also didnt give congress the nanny's contact information last week, saying he hadnt spoken to her in 7 years. Yet, they contacted her this weekend and either met, or asked to meet (I wasnt clear on that part) over the weekend, before giving her contact information to congress, and before congress could get her testimony.
He just mentioned playing for his country and for the All-Star Game, while being hurt or out of condition.
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
His lawyer is so greasey !!
The ONLY thing better than a glass of beer is tea with Miss McGill
A protuberance of flesh above the waistband of a tight pair of trousers
and the fact that they have now lied about it, has ruined the game forever in my eyes. and the saddest thing of all is that the kids that idolized these players, play little league with aspirations of being 'like them' one day are forever shattered.
i am enjoying clemens squirm...he should. he's busted, and he knows it.