Prostitution

unifiedscene

Byrnzie wrote:

They could always move to China?

:joke:

Hehe, despite the heated debate elsewhere, the Chinese do have the right track on some issues and this may be one of them. I've never been sold on capitalism. But if you're going to do it, do it all the way. If I'm going to be coerced into working 70 hour weeks just to keep my job so my master can make a zillion dollars this year, then goddamnit grant me the satisfaction of going to a brothel at the end of the week and getting my jollies with a pretty girl for a few of those dollars I earned! I forgot to ask this in the China thread, but it could be the dealbreaker... is prostitution legal there? Because that might trump al my argumentsl

decides2dream

i still see nothing wrong, overall, with objectification.


for example:
the new victoria'se secret catalogue came in the mail saturday. i was looking through it, of course my husband was curious to see it as well as is typical. we were discussing the pictures, the lingerie, the women...who and what appealled to us and why. obviously, we both know these women are WOMEN, real people with real feelings, emotions, intelligence, etc. however, for what we were doing, NONE of that mattered. we were dealing purely in superficials, shallow images, nothing more. it very much could be me comparing beautiful *anything* to each other....but in this case, it was women. these women willingly choose to make their profession as they do, get paid quite well, they have no idea what we are doing...it harms no one. i appreciate beauty in all it's forms, i compare and contrast beautiful things/people all the time. it Is objectification on a certain level, but it in no way diminishes the person, nor myself. it's just enjoying appearances for appearances' sake alone.

Byrnzie

unifiedscene wrote:

Hehe, despite the heated debate elsewhere, the Chinese do have the right track on some issues and this may be one of them. I've never been sold on capitalism. But if you're going to do it, do it all the way. If I'm going to be coerced into working 70 hour weeks just to keep my job so my master can make a zillion dollars this year, then goddamnit grant me the satisfaction of going to a brothel at the end of the week and getting my jollies with a pretty girl for a few of those dollars I earned! I forgot to ask this in the China thread, but it could be the dealbreaker... is prostitution legal there? Because that might trump al my argumentsl

It's not legal, but it's rampant. I.e, the nearest bar from my apartment is a 5 - 10 minute walk from here, and there's 14 brothels between my apartment and the bar.

unifiedscene

Byrnzie wrote:

It's not legal, but it's rampant. I.e, the nearest bar from my apartment is a 5 - 10 minute walk from here, and there's 14 brothels between my apartment and the bar.

So when can I come visit?

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

In my view, when a woman treats herself in a dehumanizing fashion, she dehumanizes herself. There are always negative consequences for dehumanizing anyone--one's self included.

Also, when dehumanization comes at one from outside one's self, it has absolutely nowhere to 'stick' or have any effect, unless there is an inner component that the woman holds to--has internalized--that causes her to accept the onslaught from without and make it her own, within.

I realize it's a case where the emotionally poor become emotionally poorer. This is why I say I value and LOVE all people. And I appreciate the equality for all of us. However, our choices, while all fair game, come with a consequence. Some much more painful than others.

edit: I see that when a woman objectifies herself--when she tunes out her own inner feedback..her emotions, intuitions, thoughts etc, that make her human, in order to have sex with a stranger, she treats herself in a dehumanizing manner.

You have finally just said exactly what I have been saying all along. A woman isn't dehumanized from within but from without- and then copes with it as she best knows how. Someone who perhaps enjoys being a prostitute will not feel dehumanized, whatsoever.
Then, in your final paragraph, you provide yourself as the external force for the prostitute letting her know that in your very humble opinion, what she is doing requires her to turn off her humanity so that she might act as a(n)____ , you fill in the blank Angelica, it's your opinion of her.

angelica

Sweet Emotion wrote:

You have finally just said exactly what I have been saying all along. A woman isn't dehumanized from within but from without- and then copes with it as she best knows how. Someone who perhaps enjoys being a prostitute will not feel dehumanized, whatsoever.
Then, in your final paragraph, you provide yourself as the external force for the prostitute letting her know that in your very humble opinion, what she is doing requires her to turn off her humanity so that she might act as a(n)____ , you fill in the blank Angelica, it's your opinion of her.

What I'm saying, and have been saying all along, is that when a woman tunes out her own humanity, she dehumanizes herself. When a woman tunes out her own feelings, thoughts and intuitions, and treats herself like an object, she objectifies herself. When she ignores her feelings or numbs them in order to act in ways she would not be able to were she in touch with her feelings, then she objectifies herself. And when society degrades her, or objectifies her, if it affects her at all, it is because she agrees with them on the inside. At the same time, society is totally responsible for what they do, as is she. It is two sides of the coin. Life holds both the woman and society responsible for their actions.

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

What I'm saying, and have been saying all along, is that when a woman tunes out her own humanity, she dehumanizes herself. When a woman tunes out her own feelings, thoughts and intuitions, and treats herself like an object, she objectifies herself. When she ignores her feelings or numbs them in order to act in ways she would not be able to were she in touch with her feelings, then she objectifies herself. And when society degrades her, or objectifies her, if it affects her at all, it is because she agrees with them on the inside. At the same time, society is totally responsible for what they do, as is she. It is two sides of the coin. Life holds both the woman and society responsible for their actions.

Life holds nothing responsible for anything. Life goes on. It is only society that holds up judgments and responsibilities for actions taken. That ugly mirror that is much less reflective than it is an embarrassment.

decides2dream

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Life holds nothing responsible for anything. Life goes on. It is only society that holds up judgments and responsibilities for actions taken. That ugly mirror that is much less reflective than it is an embarrassment.

absolutely! well said.


and how one thinks and feels on any given topic...is so individual. certainly lots of internal and external influences for said thoughts and feelings, but none the less....entirely individual. right and wrong, or any of the judgemental language in between...whether positive or negative do not necessarily hold true for all, or most.

Sweet Emotion

unifiedscene wrote:

So when can I come visit?

You'd go to China to pay to get laid??

angelica

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Life holds nothing responsible for anything. Life goes on. It is only society that holds up judgments and responsibilities for actions taken. That ugly mirror that is much less reflective than it is an embarrassment.

You are talking about something very different than I am. While you are talking about judgment, I am talking about cause and effect. Everything on earth is ruled by cause and effect. For each cause, we receive an effect. If you can show me something on our planet outside of the law of cause and effect, I'd love to see it. Everyone alive must accept the consequences of their actions at all times, whether we like it or not. Whether we deny it or not.

In the meantime, psychology has for 100 years been and continues to study the causes and effects of humans and their behaviours. In terms of repressing and denying one's emotions, the consequences are widely acknowledged across the wide board of psychology as creating unhealthy effects in humans. and on the flip-side, it's also widely acknowledged how healthy and empowering it is to acknowledge, own and integrate one's emotions. As a matter of fact, doing so is considered to be "emotionally intelligent". Emotional intelligence is considered a key factor in success. Displaying emotional intelligence is the opposite of tuning out and denying one's emotions. Even Darwin, himself, believed in the importance of emotional expression for evolutionary adaptation and survival!

It's clear that those who are not heeding evolutionary responses--such as their emotions which have evolved for a reason--receive negative effects. That is why the concept of "dehumanizing" or "objectifying" one's self has a negative connotation....it's not a neutral or positive thing.

ottje

legal, it's one of the original jobs up their with Farmer & Hunter, in my opinion

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

You are talking about something very different than I am. While you are talking about judgment, I am talking about cause and effect. Everything on earth is ruled by cause and effect. For each cause, we receive an effect. If you can show me something on our planet outside of the law of cause and effect, I'd love to see it.

In the meantime, psychology has for 100 years been and continues to study the causes and effects of humans and their behaviours. In terms of repressing and denying one's emotions, the consequences are widely acknowledged across the wide board of psychology as creating unhealthy effects in humans. and on the flip-side, it's also widely acknowledged how healthy and empowering it is to acknowledge, own and integrate one's emotions. As a matter of fact, doing so is considered to be "emotionally intelligent". Emotional intelligence is considered a key factor in success. Displaying emotional intelligence is the opposite of tuning out and denying one's emotions. Even Darwin, himself, believed in the importance of emotional expression for evolutionary adaptation and survival!

It's clear that those who are not heeding evolutionary responses--such as their emotions which have evolved for a reason--receive negative effects. That is why the concept of "dehumanizing" or "objectifying" one's self has a negative connotation....it's not a neutral or positive thing.

You are talking about something different than you are each time you post.
It's crazy. I address your replies and you go on some tangent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about any longer given the circles you've criss crossed and the amount of cloud you've managed to muddy the water. Hey, and to all you prostitutes out there, I sincerely wish you all a very happy holiday.

unifiedscene

Sweet Emotion wrote:

You'd go to China to pay to get laid??

In this economy? Americans are cheaper.

As to angelica's style, you get used to it... never a straight answer!

angelica

Sweet Emotion wrote:

You are talking about something different than you are each time you post.
It's crazy. I address your replies and you go on some tangent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about any longer given the circles you've criss crossed and the amount of cloud you've managed to muddy the water. Hey, and to all you prostitutes out there, I sincerely wish you all a very happy holiday.

Let me know when you've got a valid dispute of the subject matter.

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

Let me know when you've got a valid dispute of the subject matter.

I've got no "dispute of the subject matter". I'm very clear on it. And clarity is a beautiful thing.

writersu

Collin wrote:

Again, it's not like that here. If I take a girl out to dinner, it's either as a friend or girlfriend. Generally we pay seperately, as a matter of fact, I remember a few times that I wanted to pay everything and the girl simply laughed and said: 'don't be silly' and refused to let me pay the whole dinner. That's fairly normal around here, at least with all of the people I know and hang out with. We don't have the whole dating thing here. There's no process in which you sort of buy the girl - which the girl seems to expect anyway - with meals and drinks. That's your country, not mine. We don't go on dates.

Either way, stop putting women in such a victim role and men in such a bad light. Seriously, if this is the reality in the US, then yet again I sigh in relief.

Or could it be that your post is not objective at all and you're just trying to put men in a bad light.

I truly apologize Colin, truly. I am not sure if you and I have crossed paths on any of the threads that I have been on regarding men and love but I have said before that I do not mean to put all of you in the same pile; admittedly I do not know any men who are of merit to their gender. That said, I do not think that they speak for all men; there have to be good men out there as well.
And as for victims, there are no victims in life in terms of what we are speaking of; only those who wish to act as such. I have been there, thinking that that is what a woman should be like in order to be loved. But that is not it at all, and in hindsight, (perfect vision they say, right?) I see I was sorely mistaken. But that is attributed to my growth and it is timed as it should I imagine.

There are many men here who are very evolved and fair in relationships it seems, and that is impressive as well as proven to put my opinions in a different light.

Thanks for that guys, really.

writersu

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Prostitution is neither illegal nor morally objectionable because it objectifies women. I think that is a 20th century convention. Or maybe we could pin that on Freud, who knows.
If you go back through history prostitution is a story of women not of men. You have to know what their reasons or goals were. The Sacred Whore, a powerful, respected, confident woman, a priestess.
The courtesan, a woman who was often not a prostitute, but well taken care of, so that she might live a life of leisure without having to marry.
Today, I think the arrangement is still, more often than not, a very mutually beneficent business deal. Working women are out there because they need to pay their rents, eat, take care of their kids, just like anyone else. They are using the most base of any of the skills or talents they might possess but it is the choice they have made. And it is them who have decided to wander about scantily clad. I would say that if anything, it has been the women themselves that have done all the objectifying. The men aren't guilty of anything just because there is no emotional attachment to the act or to the person involved.
Prostitution was outlawed because it ultimately empowered women.

Wow, excellent post. I agree with all of you who have commented on this post. I think back of when I was younger and I think so many of the young women I knew as well as myself at times were foolish to not work sex to our advantage. It is a powerful place to be in as long as you are secure enough to not get into the trick bag of listening to guys who are basically jerks who try to pin a woman into a frame of thinking she is a whore, a scum, for having sex with them to begin with.

Again, my experience of small minded men. Not all men..........

catefrances

angelica wrote:

...
It's clear that those who are not heeding evolutionary responses--such as their emotions which have evolved for a reason--receive negative effects. That is why the concept of "dehumanizing" or "objectifying" one's self has a negative connotation....it's not a neutral or positive thing.

can you explain this to me? in what way should we heed our emotional responses?

angelica

catefrances wrote:

can you explain this to me? in what way should we heed our emotional responses?

By acknowledging the messages we get from our emotions. Our limbic system, or our emotional brain developed evolutionarily for a reason, through adaptation, beyond the reptilian level of our brain. Our emotional signals are the only direct response we receive telling us how the environment is affecting us in each moment. Are we feeling happy in response to our life circumstances? Joyous? Are we experiencing anger? Sadness? Each emotion, when heard, carries a specific message informing us. To tune that out is to tune out crucial feedback on how to adapt in each moment.

Each individual, upon acknowledging their emotions, are well equipped to interpret what such emotions mean to them personally. They can then create their actions in response to the inner signals. They can further figure out if the external consequences are working for them, or not, and further adapt, in tune to all the variables in each situation.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

By acknowledging the messages we get from our emotions. Our limbic system, or our emotional brain developed evolutionarily for a reason, through adaptation, beyond the reptilian level of our brain. Our emotional signals are the only direct response we receive telling us how the environment is affecting us in each moment. Are we feeling happy in response to our life circumstances? Joyous? Are we experiencing anger? Sadness? Each emotion, when heard, carries a specific message informing us. To tune that out is to tune out crucial feedback on how to adapt in each moment.

Each individual, upon acknowledging their emotions, are well equipped to interpret what such emotions mean to them personally. They can then create their actions in response to the inner signals. They can further figure out if the external consequences are working for them, or not, and further adapt, in tune to all the variables in each situation.

so are you saying we should, having taken all the variables into consideration, adapt our responses despite what our base instinct reaction is?