Prostitution

justam

angelica wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and as I said, I agree.

Integrity refers to one's state of wholeness, and of being undivided. Once we shut out our emotions, we compromise who we are and become divided...we tune out our wholeness. I use the term integrity regarding when someone shuts down their emotions for money.

Yes, I realized I had looked at the word in the wrong light after I wrote that, but I think perhaps the male example still gives people the idea of how a person's emotions could possibly be damaged from such an occupation.

Dylan Stone

angelica wrote:

Has anyone read Tracy Lord's book, which details the sexual assault she experienced as a child, and the other painful issues that brought her to the porn industry as an underaged girl? Of her then drug abuse as an adult porn star, and relationships with abusive men? All that is a little less "sexy" to acknowledge....

Do you not think... as Sweet Emotion has pointed out... given her set of coping skills and strength of character etc... and then given the fact that she was sexually abused as a child and the other painful issues she was dealing with as a young woman... she would probably not have ended up abusing drugs and having relationships with abusive men whether she got into porn or not?


She was able to use her sexuality to make money. To make money off men... the very people that harmed her. Now she is wealthy and can afford all the therapy in the world to exorcise her demons... no?

Dylan Stone

justam wrote:

It's all well and good to say she is being empowered, but I think it must kill part of her. How can the money replace her ability to bond in a meaningful way?

I agree that for MANY women it does "kill part of her."

But i also think a lot of things do.. we are not outlawing BAD MARRIAGES are we?

Women who choose to stay in bad marriages and have sex... for years on end... with men they can't stand... frequently with men they hate...

That kills a little piece of these women every day as well....

I'm not saying THIS is"right" either...

just saying....

justam

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

I agree that for MANY women it does "kill part of her."

But i also think a lot of things do.. we are not outlawing BAD MARRIAGES are we?

Women who choose to stay in bad marriages and have sex... for years on end... with men they can't stand... frequently with men they hate...

That kills a little piece of these women every day as well....

I'm not saying THIS is"right" either...

just saying....

I don't think the amount of sex a woman would have in a bad marriage could even remotely compare to the volume of sex she'd be required to have as a prostitute.

There was a scandal reported recently about a politician and a call girl and it came out that she'd have hundreds of appointments in a month. That's between three and four times a day. She was an expensive whore so she probably had fewer clients than a cheap prostitute. Think of those numbers. Three to four men who you might find repulsive EVERYDAY.

:eek:

It's horrible to think of!

The korean women who were used as "comfort women" during the war sometimes had as many as SIXTY men in a day. Can you imagine that?

I don't think a bad marriage is on the same scale of torture.

Dylan Stone

justam wrote:

I don't think the amount of sex a woman would have in a bad marriage could even remotely compare to the volume of sex she'd be required to have as a prostitute.

There was a scandal reported recently about a politician and a call girl and it came out that she'd have hundreds of appointments in a month. That's between three and four times a day. She was an expensive whore so she probably had fewer clients than a cheap prostitute. Think of those numbers. Three to four men who you might find repulsive EVERYDAY.

:eek:

It's horrible to think of!

The korean women who were used as "comfort women" during the war sometimes had as many as SIXTY men in a day. Can you imagine that?

I don't think a bad marriage is on the same scale of torture.

OK...so how much does an expensive prostitute make?

Does she NEED to have so many calls a month or does she choose to because she is making money hand over fist?

Even if an expensive prostitiute only made $200 per john... x 5 per week... tax free (because you can't pay taxes on that which is not legal....)

She's bringing home $1000/week for presumably ten hours of "work." No?

Anything after that $50,000 (assuming she takes two weeks "off" a year) isn't that really just her icing?

And how many are repeat customers... at a MERE $200 for two hours work... for those ... at least a few of the 20 calls a month must be return customers... many of whichshe may not loathe at all?

Many women fuck men they LOATHE aka their husbands... essentially for $ as well... we know that is why many don't leave... because they feel disempowered and afraid they could not survive without the men due to financial dependence.

Was it this thread where people were arguing that "westernized" women are not, as a whole, oppressed?

:eek:


**we all know that high end prostitutes make waaaaay more than $100/hour or $200 a call** The girl is this link states $2000 an hour!

(i must run and haven't read the entire article yet.... i will though...looks like it addresses a lot of the issues we're discussing)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/11/07/lw.call.girl/

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

I'm saying it's about coping skills, character, society, politics, etc.

You said: "The dehumanizing aspects of sex trade or in life that people experience are not due to which ever particular pursuits one may be involved but happen because of the other people involved and one's coping skills and character."

I'm saying, in general terms, that one's particular pursuits are a part of who one is. I'm saying any variable involved is a variable involved in understanding what happens.

"I'm saying it's about coping skills, character, society, politics, etc."
Coping skills and character are the tools we have, that we develop, that we craft and which hopefully evolve as we grow, to understand and deal with or handle the situations we explore as we travel our paths. That would be "society, politics, etc.". That is our internal force and the external forces with which it contends. Of course our points of view are going to be influenced by our pursuits. That's not a point. In fact, it's a rather bland truth.
A woman doesn't dehumanize herself for being a prostitute. Or for doing porn films. That is hurled at her from outside external forces. And, if she were to 'dehumanize' herself for her acts, that would be merely her coping skill as she has accepted those ideas which would foster that.
Also, we have the potential of being more than our pursuits. So our "understanding what happens" might be greater than that which does happen.

unifiedscene

scb wrote:

I don't think I'm explaining myself well. I think prostitution is a form of objectification. Kind of like apples are a form of fruit, for instance. If fruit ceased to exist, then apples would necessarily cease to exist because they are a form of fruit. Same with objectification and prostitution. If objectification ceased to exist, there could be no forms of it remaining, including prostitution. If prostitution still existed, that would mean objectification still existed. Know what I mean?

No, that's absurd reasoning. There's no logic to it. Objectification might be a part of prostitution, but it's one of many. And erasing one cause does not stop the practice in its entirety. It's like saying if cigarettes disappeared from the face of the earth, nobody would ever get cancer again. Maybe there would be less lung cancer, even a huge drop in it. But there are other causes of cancer and getting rid of cigarettes does not take care of the rest.

angelica

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

Do you not think... as Sweet Emotion has pointed out... given her set of coping skills and strength of character etc... and then given the fact that she was sexually abused as a child and the other painful issues she was dealing with as a young woman... she would probably not have ended up abusing drugs and having relationships with abusive men whether she got into porn or not?

Of course. I'm not sure I hear your point.

She was able to use her sexuality to make money. To make money off men... the very people that harmed her. Now she is wealthy and can afford all the therapy in the world to exorcise her demons... no?

Yes. And she still objectified herself. She was still objectified by others.

angelica

Sweet Emotion wrote:

"I'm saying it's about coping skills, character, society, politics, etc."
Coping skills and character are the tools we have, that we develop, that we craft and which hopefully evolve as we grow, to understand and deal with or handle the situations we explore as we travel our paths. That would be "society, politics, etc.". That is our internal force and the external forces with which it contends. Of course our points of view are going to be influenced by our pursuits. That's not a point. In fact, it's a rather bland truth.
A woman doesn't dehumanize herself for being a prostitute. Or for doing porn films. That is hurled at her from outside external forces. And, if she were to 'dehumanize' herself for her acts, that would be merely her coping skill as she has accepted those ideas which would foster that.
Also, we have the potential of being more than our pursuits. So our "understanding what happens" might be greater than that which does happen.

In my view, when a woman treats herself in a dehumanizing fashion, she dehumanizes herself. There are always negative consequences for dehumanizing anyone--one's self included.

Also, when dehumanization comes at one from outside one's self, it has absolutely nowhere to 'stick' or have any effect, unless there is an inner component that the woman holds to--has internalized--that causes her to accept the onslaught from without and make it her own, within.

I realize it's a case where the emotionally poor become emotionally poorer. This is why I say I value and LOVE all people. And I appreciate the equality for all of us. However, our choices, while all fair game, come with a consequence. Some much more painful than others.

edit: I see that when a woman objectifies herself--when she tunes out her own inner feedback..her emotions, intuitions, thoughts etc, that make her human, in order to have sex with a stranger, she treats herself in a dehumanizing manner.

Dylan Stone

angelica wrote:

Of course. I'm not sure I hear your point.

I was just making sure i was understanding yours...

angelica

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

I was just making sure i was understanding yours...

cool.

angelica

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

Many women fuck men they LOATHE aka their husbands... essentially for $ as well... we know that is why many don't leave... because they feel disempowered and afraid they could not survive without the men due to financial dependence.

Was it this thread where people were arguing that "westernized" women are not, as a whole, oppressed?

:eek:

For me, I see that this issue goes far beyond prostitution...to the objectification of all our people...the tuning out and the devaluing of the 'feminine' intelligences (emotional and intuitive) in our males and females, which creates widespread imbalance. To me, it's more symptomatic of 1)a patriarchal system, which both men and women uphold, and suffer from .. and 2) where we just are at this point in our human evolution...because we know what is beyond this imbalance, and can point to as an ideal, does not mean the majority will adapt and move on any quicker than they are..

kenny olav

angelica wrote:

For me, I see that this issue goes far beyond prostitution...to the objectification of all our people...the tuning out and the devaluing of the 'feminine' intelligences (emotional and intuitive) in our males and females, which creates widespread imbalance. To me, it's more symptomatic of 1)a patriarchal system, which both men and women uphold, and suffer from .. and 2) where we just are at this point in our human evolution...because we know what is beyond this imbalance, and can point to as an ideal, does not mean the majority will adapt and move on any quicker than they are..

spot on! people are so hard-edged nowadays, and I myself am guilty of being that way sometimes. it's a social disease, and it's easy to catch.

angelica

Kenny Olav wrote:

spot on! people are so hard-edged nowadays, and I myself am guilty of being that way sometimes. it's a social disease, and it's easy to catch.

I, myself, am guilty of it also.

kenny olav

angelica wrote:

I, myself, am guilty of it also.

haha, this thread is turning into group therapy.

dcfaithful

Yeah, I'd say legal...

people who prostitute themselves, or purchase a prostitute aren't stupid, and know the risks of it when they make that choice. If it's worth it to you, your going to do it anyways..

unifiedscene

Kenny Olav wrote:

spot on! people are so hard-edged nowadays, and I myself am guilty of being that way sometimes. it's a social disease, and it's easy to catch.

I'm curious what you mean by hard-edged?

kenny olav

unifiedscene wrote:

I'm curious what you mean by hard-edged?

yeah, i thought i needed to that explain that more, actually...

i guess i mean a lot of things: overly competitive, uncaring, dismissive, reactionary, to name a few...

unifiedscene

Kenny Olav wrote:

yeah, i thought i needed to that explain that more, actually...

i guess i mean a lot of things: overly competitive, uncaring, dismissive, reactionary, to name a few...

Gotcha. I'd agree with that. It's kind of a natural outgrowth of capitalism... it breeds an "every man, woman and child for his or her self" mentality. For all the neocons whine about the decline of family values and try to blame gays and tv for it, the root problem is our society is built around a "me first" mentality that largely views all other people as either disposable or tools for getting what we want.

We scream bloody murder about sacrificing a bit of our income in taxes to support the poor and impoverished and then act confused that 50% of our married couples can't handle making the huge personal sacrifices marriage demands in our daily lives.

Byrnzie

unifiedscene wrote:

Gotcha. I'd agree with that. It's kind of a natural outgrowth of capitalism... it breeds an "every man, woman and child for his or her self" mentality.

They could always move to China?


:joke: