Haditha

spiral out

spyguy wrote:

you want to place the US as the primary one at fault. ok. doesnt mean there aren't others to blame.



thats just your opinion. I very much disagree.

Look our countries are to blame, pure and simple, i just don't understand what's so hard to digest with those facts.

spyguy

spiral out wrote:

Look our countries are to blame, pure and simple, i just don't understand what's so hard to digest with those facts.

you have trouble listening or comprehending I guess. I'm not saying the US isnt to blame. I'm saying there are more to blame then just the US for the 1.2 million deaths reported. muslimi extremism to directly responsible for massive death in Iraq. thats a fact.

polaris

spyguy wrote:

you have trouble listening or comprehending I guess. I'm not saying the US isnt to blame. I'm saying there are more to blame then just the US for the 1.2 million deaths reported. muslimi extremism to directly responsible for massive death in Iraq. thats a fact.

iraq was one of the most non-secular countries to exist in the middle east - a place where al qaeda was disdained ... now, post-occupation - we have a thrivinig militant group - who's to blame for that?? ... stop looking for outs - the blood falls squarely on this administration ...

Open

spyguy wrote:

I keep hearing this and it just doesnt sound right to me. Iraqis "knew how to stay alive" Iraqis "knew how to avoid the wrath of saddam" thats not a good way to live. i'm not justifiing the invasion but to go on living like that is wrong. maybe now that the cycle of broken, ALL Iraqis can live in peace.......sometime down the road.

So u and Bush are the deciders now...who are u to say that its better for them to die than survive? These peoples LIVES, not a video game, or the NFL, or any other distraction that the administration wants this war to be. Some of the most self centered shit i've read on this board, that's saying a lot.

Open

spyguy wrote:

you have trouble listening or comprehending I guess. I'm not saying the US isnt to blame. I'm saying there are more to blame then just the US for the 1.2 million deaths reported. muslimi extremism to directly responsible for massive death in Iraq. thats a fact.

Before we invaded Muslim extremist were not an issue; so yes we are responsible.

spyguy

polaris wrote:

iraq was one of the most non-secular countries to exist in the middle east - a place where al qaeda was disdained ... now, post-occupation - we have a thrivinig militant group - who's to blame for that?? ... stop looking for outs - the blood falls squarely on this administration ...

non-secular? are you nuts? sunni/shiite = the biggest divide in the middle east.

spyguy

Open wrote:

Before we invaded Muslim extremist were not an issue; so yes we are responsible.

uhhh yes it was. sunni's violently oppressed shittes. thats pretty extreme if u ask me

spyguy

Open wrote:

So u and Bush are the deciders now...who are u to say that its better for them to die than survive? These peoples LIVES, not a video game, or the NFL, or any other distraction that the administration wants this war to be. Some of the most self centered shit i've read on this board, that's saying a lot.

maybe you rather saddam was the decider then?

Open

spyguy wrote:

uhhh yes it was. sunni's violently oppressed shittes. thats pretty extreme if u ask me

It was a secular regime.

Open

spyguy wrote:

maybe you rather saddam was the decider then?

If it meant 900000 people still being alive yes....

spyguy

Open wrote:

If it meant 900000 people still being alive yes....

but that would then mean millions more living in fear and eventually death. the US invaded and they were now free to start killing each other in the name of religion. you dont see a problem with that? I'm not trying to justify the US invasion or say we are not to blame for the problems there. its just not as cut and dry as you say.

what will Iraq look like 10 years from now? is it possible to be a thriving peaceful place? All US troops are set to leave by 2011. I'm willing to bet Iraq will be a peaceful place by then and beyond.

what would Iraq look like if saddam stayed in power? maybe he would be dead and one of his nice sons become president. paving the way for 30 more years of fear and death.

Open

spyguy wrote:

but that would then mean millions more living in fear and eventually death. the US invaded and they were now free to start killing each other in the name of religion. you dont see a problem with that? I'm not trying to justify the US invasion or say we are not to blame for the problems there. its just not as cut and dry as you say.

what will Iraq look like 10 years from now? is it possible to be a thriving peaceful place? All US troops are set to leave by 2011. I'm willing to bet Iraq will be a peaceful place by then and beyond.

what would Iraq look like if saddam stayed in power? maybe he would be dead and one of his nice sons become president. paving the way for 30 more years of fear and death.

Maybe the death of Sadaam would have led to a revolution and the people of Iraq would have decided their own faith. Not some armchair quarterback over here in the states.


Im not playing god with 1 persons life based on your assumptions

spyguy

Open wrote:

Maybe the death of Sadaam would have led to a revolution and the people of Iraq would have decided their own faith. Not some armchair quarterback over here in the states.

maybe. but based on previous attempts at revolution, I'd say its a long shot. I'd even say people feared saddams sons more then saddam himself. they were some brutal fuckers.

Open wrote:

Im not playing god with 1 persons life based on your assumptions

cant go back and change what happen. life in Iraq has forever changed. now its time to think of the possible outcomes for Iraq's future. can Iraq be fully united one day? can Iraq live in a society based on freedom? I'd like to think so.

Wobbie

spyguy wrote:

I keep hearing this and it just doesnt sound right to me. Iraqis "knew how to stay alive" Iraqis "knew how to avoid the wrath of saddam" thats not a good way to live. i'm not justifiing the invasion but to go on living like that is wrong. maybe now that the cycle of broken, ALL Iraqis can live in peace.......sometime down the road.

No, it wasn't a good way to live. There are a lot of shitty places to live in this world. Remember, this invasion was purportedly to find the WMD and save the free world. When that didn't pan out, it became about "spreading democracy." BTW - the cycle is FAR from broken.

spyguy wrote:

maybe you rather saddam was the decider then?

As bad as it was, yes. There's 4000 years of bad blood over there - it is inane to think we can step in and "decide" to change it. We say we're all worried about Iran, yet we set Iraq up to be, more or less, absorbed by Iran.

spyguy wrote:

what will Iraq look like 10 years from now? is it possible to be a thriving peaceful place? All US troops are set to leave by 2011. I'm willing to bet Iraq will be a peaceful place by then and beyond.

Anything is possible, but the Sunni/Shite divide is not going anywhere. And we're never truly leaving. This war was about oil and oil will be the only tangible proof that we ever "won" this war. I don't think we'll ever truly "give back" Iraq to its people. :mad:

spyguy

imalive wrote:

No, it wasn't a good way to live. There are a lot of shitty places to live in this world. Remember, this invasion was purportedly to find the WMD and save the free world. When that didn't pan out, it became about "spreading democracy." BTW - the cycle is FAR from broken.

As bad as it was, yes. There's 4000 years of bad blood over there - it is inane to think we can step in and "decide" to change it. We say we're all worried about Iran, yet we set Iraq up to be, more or less, absorbed by Iran.

eh, I'm more optimistic I guess. you cant deny that sunni-shitte violence has dramtically declined in recent months..

imalive wrote:

Anything is possible, but the Sunni/Shite divide is not going anywhere. And we're never truly leaving. This war was about oil and oil will be the only tangible proof that we ever "won" this war. I don't think we'll ever truly "give back" Iraq to its people. :mad:

we may never leave completely, no. but we will remove combat troops, and tanks, etc etc. we arent going to be there in the current state forever. 2011 to be exact.

Wobbie

Open wrote:

Maybe the death of Sadaam would have led to a revolution and the people of Iraq would have decided their own faith. Not some armchair quarterback over here in the states.

EXACTLY!!!!! How would any sovereign country feel when an outside country comes in to "decide" what is best for them?

spyguy wrote:

eh, I'm more optimistic I guess. you cant deny that sunni-shitte violence has dramtically declined in recent months..

No, I can't. But it's kind of like the old "are you still beating your wife?" question. After watching 60 Minutes I was just struck, again, by what a mess we made with an unnecessary war. In my mind, Bush and his cronies should be held accountable but I'm enough of a realist to accept that it will never happen.

I do appreciate your rational arguments. We, at least, seem to have some common ground. Maybe Washington should try the "common ground" approach.

polaris

spyguy wrote:

non-secular? are you nuts? sunni/shiite = the biggest divide in the middle east.

no ... i'm not nuts - are you?

the country was non-secular as in the gov't and military contained members from all religions - people lived together in relative peace ...

spyguy

polaris wrote:

no ... i'm not nuts - are you?

the country was non-secular as in the gov't and military contained members from all religions - people lived together in relative peace ...

the kurds lived in peace? shittes lived in peace? people who disagreed with saddam lived in peace? you cant be serious

spyguy

imalive wrote:

EXACTLY!!!!! How would any sovereign country feel when an outside country comes in to "decide" what is best for them?


No, I can't. But it's kind of like the old "are you still beating your wife?" question. After watching 60 Minutes I was just struck, again, by what a mess we made with an unnecessary war. In my mind, Bush and his cronies should be held accountable but I'm enough of a realist to accept that it will never happen.

I do appreciate your rational arguments. We, at least, seem to have some common ground. Maybe Washington should try the "common ground" approach.

no we should have never "decided" for them but we did. cant go back and change it ya know.

polaris

spyguy wrote:

the kurds lived in peace? shittes lived in peace? people who disagreed with saddam lived in peace? you cant be serious

i said a relative peace - compared to now, it was fantastic ... they may not have been happy but they had food, water and could live their lives ... what do they got now? ... they've been bombed back 2 centuries ... what was once one of the jewels of the middle east full of culture and modernism is now another wreckage of air raids and depleted uranium ...

best and worst thing ever to happen to iraq was when they nationalized their oil ... they were able to put money into roads, school, water treatment plants but they should have known the west wouldn't sit still ... and now they have thier oil back on the blood of innocent people ...