Haditha

Wobbie
Wobbie Posts: 31,401
edited August 2008 in A Moving Train
From what I can tell, this was last "discussed" here about a year ago. Did anyone else see 60 Minutes tonight?

Reader's Digest version: In 2005 a vehicle in a Marine Corp. "convoy" was hit by an IED. One guy dies, 2 others are hurt. The squad leader (who was in Iraq because he "wanted to see combat." WTF?) focuses in on a car in the area. The five Iraquis who are in the car don't get on the ground ("They all know the drill") and they are shot. The squad leader then focuses on a house because "it seemed" some gunfire might be coming from there. The Marines "clear" the house, killing a man, 2 women and 4 children in the process. They run out of house #1 and into a second and third house. Long story short, 24 civilians are killed with scant evidence that any were involved in the IED.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Here's what struck me:

The squad leader "wanted to see combat." He wasn't there to spread democracy, free the Iraqui people, find WMD, etc.

He felt justified in everything he did.

It seemed he felt like Iraquis should do (without question) anything the occupying force tells them to do.

Charges have been dropped against 7 Marines involved in this. Only the squad leader is still facing a court martial. His charges have been reduced to manslaughter.

I mean, WTF???? Is it any mystery why the Iraquis never welcomed us and want us out now? I think the whole mission is so convuluted that many soldiers have different reasons or beliefs as to why they are there. The 24 deaths in Haditha are just 24 of 40,000. What ever happened to "winning hearts and minds"? Our soldiers are pawns of the original Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz charade and that's what's so sad and infuriating to me. :mad:

There is nothing that anyone can say to convince me this was ever a necessary or righteous war.
If I had known then what I know now...

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Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    those 40,000 deaths in Haditha are just 40,000 out of 1,200,000.
  • Wobbie
    Wobbie Posts: 31,401
    _outlaw wrote:
    those 40,000 deaths in Haditha are just 40,000 out of 1,200,000.

    I was talking about what I thought was a conservative estimate of 40,000 Iraqis killed in the course of this war :confused:
    If I had known then what I know now...

    Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
    VIC 07
    EV LA1 08
    Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
    Columbus 10
    EV LA 11
    Vancouver 11
    Missoula 12
    Portland 13, Spokane 13
    St. Paul 14, Denver 14
    Philly I & II, 16
    Denver 22
    Missoula 24
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    imalive wrote:
    I was talking about what I thought was a conservative estimate of 40,000 Iraqis killed in the course of this war :confused:
    I'm actually confused by what I even wrote, but 40,000 Iraqis haven't died in the war, it was 1.2 million.
  • Wobbie
    Wobbie Posts: 31,401
    _outlaw wrote:
    I'm actually confused by what I even wrote, but 40,000 Iraqis haven't died in the war, it was 1.2 million.
    Too fucking many, at any rate :mad:
    If I had known then what I know now...

    Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
    VIC 07
    EV LA1 08
    Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
    Columbus 10
    EV LA 11
    Vancouver 11
    Missoula 12
    Portland 13, Spokane 13
    St. Paul 14, Denver 14
    Philly I & II, 16
    Denver 22
    Missoula 24
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Blackwater gets away with plenty of killings as well, like the Nisour Square 'shootings'...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Baghdad_shootings
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    _outlaw wrote:
    those 40,000 deaths in Haditha are just 40,000 out of 1,200,000.

    are Muslims responsible for any of these deaths?
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    spyguy wrote:
    are Muslims responsible for any of these deaths?

    Why, do you feel it is mostly Muslims who are responsible for these deaths?
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    spyguy wrote:
    are Muslims responsible for any of these deaths?
    .

    Im sure there are muslims in the us military....
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    Open wrote:
    .

    Im sure there are muslims in the us military....

    dont edit your insult. please keep it there. how about all the sunni-shitte killings. that went on for years. are they responsible for death? they are people too right?
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    spiral out wrote:
    Why, do you feel it is mostly Muslims who are responsible for these deaths?

    for a large # of them, yes. do you remember the sunni-shiite "civil war" ?
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    spyguy wrote:
    for a large # of them, yes. do you remember the sunni-shiite "civil war" ?

    So are you just trying to deflect from the fact our soldiers have killed many innocent people?

    I mean does it matter if 50% were killed by the sunni-shiite civil war and the other 50% were killed by our soldiers?

    Does this somehow make all those innocent peoples deaths somehow ok?

    Or are those deaths from the civil war far worse? and ours were just sad mistakes that happened?

    Come on man get real the fact is, if we had never invaded all these people would never have died, trying to share out the blame for the deaths does not minimize the fact that these people died.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    spyguy wrote:
    for a large # of them, yes. do you remember the sunni-shiite "civil war" ?

    uhhh ... if a country is being occupied and a civil war breaks out - who's fault is that?? ...
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    spiral out wrote:
    So are you just trying to deflect from the fact our soldiers have killed many innocent people?

    no absolutely not.
    spiral out wrote:
    I mean does it matter if 50% were killed by the sunni-shiite civil war and the other 50% were killed by our soldiers?

    yes

    spiral out wrote:
    Does this somehow make all those innocent peoples deaths somehow ok?

    no
    spiral out wrote:
    Or are those deaths from the civil war far worse? and ours were just sad mistakes that happened?

    yes, I do think anytime US soliders killed innocent civillians, it was a sad mistake. still horrible though.
    spiral out wrote:
    Come on man get real the fact is, if we had never invaded all these people would never have died, trying to share out the blame for the deaths does not minimize the fact that these people died.

    maybe, maybe not. one side would have continued to be oppressed tortured and killed however. all I'm saying is that violent muslim extremism is to blame for massive death in Iraq. is the US to blame as well, absolutely.
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    polaris wrote:
    uhhh ... if a country is being occupied and a civil war breaks out - who's fault is that?? ...

    there are many to blame.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    spyguy wrote:
    there are many to blame.

    primary fault falls to the occupying force ... by dissolving the army and gov't (both secular agencies) and replacing them people that favoured sectarianism - they caused this civil war ... which was the intention all along ...

    maintaining political instability has always been the goal of this administration and the resulting deaths of innocent iraqis along with its continued suffering is but little consequence to an empire ...
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    polaris wrote:
    primary fault falls to the occupying force ... by dissolving the army and gov't (both secular agencies) and replacing them people that favoured sectarianism - they caused this civil war ... which was the intention all along ...

    you want to place the US as the primary one at fault. ok. doesnt mean there aren't others to blame.
    polaris wrote:
    maintaining political instability has always been the goal of this administration .

    thats just your opinion. I very much disagree.
  • Wobbie
    Wobbie Posts: 31,401
    polaris wrote:
    uhhh ... if a country is being occupied and a civil war breaks out - who's fault is that?? ...

    The fault would have to fall on the force who de-stabilized the country. Before we invaded, the Iraqis knew how to stay alive but once we were there, all bets were off. It basically became a "wrong pace at the wrong time" situation, as the Haditha incident illustrates :mad:
    If I had known then what I know now...

    Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
    VIC 07
    EV LA1 08
    Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
    Columbus 10
    EV LA 11
    Vancouver 11
    Missoula 12
    Portland 13, Spokane 13
    St. Paul 14, Denver 14
    Philly I & II, 16
    Denver 22
    Missoula 24
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    imalive wrote:
    The fault would have to fall on the force who de-stabilized the country. Before we invaded, the Iraqis knew how to stay alive but once we were there, all bets were off. It basically became a "wrong pace at the wrong time" situation, as the Haditha incident illustrates :mad:

    I keep hearing this and it just doesnt sound right to me. Iraqis "knew how to stay alive" Iraqis "knew how to avoid the wrath of saddam" thats not a good way to live. i'm not justifiing the invasion but to go on living like that is wrong. maybe now that the cycle of broken, ALL Iraqis can live in peace.......sometime down the road.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    going with _outlaw's figure of 1.2 million iraqi deaths since this occupation ...

    that's 400 times the casualty rate of 9/11 and that is not including the death toll in afghanistan ... 1.2 million deaths based on lies ... all in the name of greed ... how anyone can support a gov't like this is what makes this even more tragic ...
  • We are are simply creating more terrorists by our actions...

    Yeah, we're to blame... no question about that...

    we shouldn't be surprised by any repurcussions... but many will be
    the Minions