Prisons in the USA

Kel Varnsen

Ahnimus wrote:

Keep in mind these stats are # of arrests, not prison population.

The violent crime stat for Canada is a little unnerving

Population of Canada 2007 estimate
33,073,500

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/070927/d070927a.htm

Population of United States of America 2007 estimate
302,643,000

http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html

With 1/10th of the population our violent crimes shouldn't be as much as half. One might argue that the arrest of 1.8 million drug users affected the stats for violent crimes.

Part of the reason for that might be this.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/85F0035XIE/85F0035XIE.pdf

Canada classifies more things as violent crimes including robbery, sexual offenses, attemped murder and all levels of assault.(check out the bottom of page 11). Those 1.3 million "other assault" arrests if they were included would totally change the results.

On top of that, I can't find a link for it but, I remember hearing something about those stats awhile back and the US ones only count arrests, where as the Canadian ones count everytime a crime has been reported.

Ahnimus

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Part of the reason for that might be this.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/85F0035XIE/85F0035XIE.pdf

Canada classifies more things as assaults (check out the bottom of page 11).

On top of that, I can't find a link for it but, I remember hearing something about those stats awhile back and the US ones only count arrests, where as the Canadian ones count everytime a crime has been reported.

I noticed that too, Burglary was included in Canadian violent crime stats. I forgot about it though, thanks.

DriftingByTheStorm

Thecure wrote:

my questions is why don't we hear from teh cops saying this is a load of shit.

Uh.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition - LEAP

LEAP is a U.S. Internal Revenue Service 501(c)3 nonprofit educational organization. If you are a resident of the U.S. your donations to LEAP are tax deductible.

The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ultimately ending drug prohibition.

Drug War Clock

Kel Varnsen

Thecure wrote:

thanks abotu the suggestion of the book, i have been trying to get back into reading. i don't doubt that this is true. i think it is a shame. i am a social worker here in Toronto and i work with people who are homeless living with HIV/AIDS. some of the police stories that i hear from my clients are shocking.

If you like non-fiction it is an excellent read. My library had it so I would expect the Toronto Library to have it too. It is about an inner city corner in Baltimore Maryland, and a year the writers spent there getting to know the people and telling their stories. It really is a great book.

Ahnimus

This is a good book too

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12027/12027-h/12027-h.htm

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Thecure wrote:

i was having a discussion on another thread and we were talking about the crime bill in Canada. we then stated to talk about the differnces between Canada and the US prison system.

my questions is what would you think is teh % of people in prison in the states as related to drug offesives as compared to violent crime.

since i am not american, i don't know.

any help would be great.

I found this bit of information interesting.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/65406/

There's also statistics floating around (this is off the top of my head) that the US has 5% of the worlds population but 25% of it's inmates...or something like that.

So unless the US is the most violent place in the world many times over...that's a lot of drug related offenses.

DriftingByTheStorm

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

So unless the US is the most violent place in the world many times over...that's a lot of drug related offenses.

uh, i think it is actually both.
i think we do hold the world homicide & violent crime record.
but we also hold the non-violent drug crime incarceration championship as well.

Drowned Out

An interesting wiki, page....pretty much all government stats:

In recent decades the U.S. has experienced a surge in its prison population, quadrupling since 1980, partially as a result of mandated sentences that came about during the "war on drugs" and despite the decline in violent crime and property crime since the early 1990s[2].

In terms of federal prison, 57% of those incarcerated were sentenced for drug offenses. Currently, considering local jails as well, almost one million of those incarcerated are in prison for non-violent crime. [4]

half of all persons incarcerated under state jurisdiction are for non-violent offences, and 20% are incarcerated for drug offences.[15]

In 2002, 93.2% of prisoners were male. About 10.4% of all black males in the United States between the ages of 25 and 29 were sentenced and in prison, compared to 2.4% of Hispanic males and 1.2% of white males. [5]

270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time in 2003, representing 21% of the federal prison population. It is estimated that currently 27% of federal prison inmates are criminal aliens, noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally.[3]

In 2005, about 1 out of every 136 U.S. residents was incarcerated either in prison or jail.[6] The total amount being 2,320,359, with 1,446,269 in state and federal prisons and 747,529 in local jails.[7]

RolandTD20Kdrummer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

uh, i think it is actually both.
i think we do hold the world homicide & violent crime record.
but we also hold the non-violent drug crime incarceration championship as well.

I don't know whether to laugh at America insisting on being #1 at seemingly everything or cry.

chadwick

I dont know the %'age but i do know if drugs and alcohol
would all of a sudden vanish a very small amount of ppl would still
be committing crimes.

My dad worked at the Iowa State Penitentiary, a maximum security prison.
For 30 odd years he was a gaurd there.

That is what he always said, if it wasn't for drugs or alcohol he'd be unemployeed.

Most crimes are committed when the criminal is fucked up on something,
or needing to get fucked up on something.

True fact

chadwick

In alot of states why does a marijuana user/dealer do more time in prison than a child molestor?

This is insane and out of control.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

U. S. A. ! U. S. A. ! U. S. A. ! U. S. A. ! U. S. A. !

trappedinmyradio

Thecure wrote:

actually, i would like to change alittle thing abotu my last post. please just don't compare drug related crimes to violent crimes. do you believe that prisons are full (if they are) with people who deserve to be there.

please no resposds like of course they belong there because they broke teh law. i am asking if the law is fair

non-violent and non-child-exploiting crimes should not be punishable with a jail sentence...violent crimes committed due to substance abuse should be punishable with a jail sentence...

no, jails are not full of people that deserve to be there...

take, for instance, a person caught driving on a suspended license for the third time...jail...that is ridiculous...

Anon

trappedinmyradio wrote:

take, for instance, a person caught driving on a suspended license for the third time...jail...that is ridiculous...

what should happen to them? How do you educate 'repeat offenders' to stop breaking the law? Do you have a limit of how many times they can be caught before they should go to jail???

RolandTD20Kdrummer

chadwick wrote:

I dont know the %'age but i do know if drugs and alcohol
would all of a sudden vanish a very small amount of ppl would still
be committing crimes.

My dad worked at the Iowa State Penitentiary, a maximum security prison.
For 30 odd years he was a gaurd there.

That is what he always said, if it wasn't for drugs or alcohol he'd be unemployeed.

Most crimes are committed when the criminal is fucked up on something,
or needing to get fucked up on something.

True fact

Interesting perspective. Thanks.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

not that I'm for nonviolent drug offenders getting long prison sentences, but I think sending them all to rehab instead is even more wasteful. It would cost taxpayers a hell of a lot more to attempt to rehab them and the percentage of those who actually kick the habit will be tiny and wouldnt justify the cost.

People forced to goto rehab don't change their ways for very long. Most people i know who have went willingly eventually fall back into the habit.

I don't know what the answer is. Hopefully the family can help or the person can change his environment, but thats about it.

Drowned Out

MrSmith wrote:

not that I'm for nonviolent drug offenders getting long prison sentences, but I think sending them all to rehab instead is even more wasteful. It would cost taxpayers a hell of a lot more to attempt to rehab them and the percentage of those who actually kick the habit will be tiny and wouldnt justify the cost.

People forced to goto rehab don't change their ways for very long. Most people i know who have went willingly eventually fall back into the habit.

I don't know what the answer is. Hopefully the family can help or the person can change his environment, but thats about it.

Why would you send a non-violent drug user anywhere? make the rehab voluntary. You don't HAVE to force people off drugs...if they're not hurting anyone, who cares if they do drugs?

Now about the money...How many rehab facilities do you think you could build for the 40.6 billion the drug war clock in this thread says you've spent so far THIS YEAR? Next year's 50 billion could pay a doctor or two....the next years 50 billion could go into education....think about how much money that is....

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

Drowned Out wrote:

Why would you send a non-violent drug user anywhere? make the rehab voluntary. You don't HAVE to force people off drugs...if they're not hurting anyone, who cares if they do drugs?

That would be my position but some would call it heartless or something. However, they would weigh the healthcare system down pretty badly, and hospitals can't turn them away for emergency care.

The only thing you could do then is make it all legal and tax the hell out of companies that make the drugs to offset healthcare costs. If drugs were suddenly legal no way would 50 billion pay to cover expenses.

Drowned Out

MrSmith wrote:

That would be my position but some would call it heartless or something. However, they would weigh the healthcare system down pretty badly, and hospitals can't turn them away for emergency care.

The only thing you could do then is make it all legal and tax the hell out of companies that make the drugs to offset healthcare costs. If drugs were suddenly legal no way would 50 billion pay to cover expenses.

Your position would be to force rehab on them? Just clarifying....I don't have a big problem with that (as long as the jail and criminal record weren't involved), but like you said earlier, it would be a waste of money.

Remember....most people that want to do drugs do them already....there is not some huge population of people out there pining for the day they can legally snort a line of blow but choosing not to do it cause they're scared of the police.
...of the people that WOULD go try drugs just cause they're legal,how many would need healthcare? I don't see a curious user stuffing their face with drugs, esp if there is a properly funded education system in place....not to mention the fact that you could then regulate and monitor purity.

Do you honestly think there would be 50 billion in NEW drug user's healthcare costs? That would mean that a 12% medicare budget increase couldn't cover the new drug users expenses. That doesn't add up to me.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

no, i was agreeing with you there about it being voluntary. sorry.