Jim Crow alive and well in Saudi Arabia

even flow?

blackredyellow wrote:

I can't wait until the oil is finally dried up and there is actually some motivation for people in power to get their countries out of the middle ages.

A majority-muslim country like India is a perfect example of how a country can improve itself from within over time... They still have a lot of work to do, but it's amazingly powerful when the citizens of the country and their intelligence are more prized and utilized resources then some fossil fuel in the ground.

80% Hindu in India. Maybe 10 to 15% tops of Muslim.

Edit: Page one of the story was good, but I have to sign up to read the last three pages.

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

Grow up already! Let me break it down for you...

I'm not gonna speak for Jlew, but I'm pretty sure he would agree with me in having NO PROBLEM AT ALL pointing out the faults of our government. I will say it plain as day here that we speak out of both sides of our mouth in regards to foreign policy to serve our own interest and further our own agenda. Are you happy now? Do you care to go on about our "fantasy land" and "3rd grade goggles"??????????

The bottom line is that America and the rest of Western civilaztion benefits more for a stable flow of oil and a stable governement in Saudi Arabia than if we tried to put sanctions on them in order to force social change. Do you have any idea what would happen in the world, if the price of oil shot up to $100/$120 a barrel? Do you know what kind of economic repercusions that would have on the world economy and how that would undermine our own governemnt?

If we went into a major recession or depression, it would be extremely detrimental to our security becuase for one reason, we would be in a vulnerable position of weakness and our enemies would be floating in money, literally, making them much, much stronger. Does that make sense to you?

Can you not see how our hands are tied at the moment with regards to Saudi Arabia????

1. anytime someone says something critical of the US government he turns to the old "you hate america" bullshit. sorry dude, that doesnt fly with me. this country was founded on dissent, and will continue to evolve because of open dissent. period. and this thread was about saudi arabia and not even the US?

2. let me take your logic and expand on it for a second. basicly you say it is in our economic interest to turn a blind eye to their brutal oppression and lack of freedom. so how far are you willing to take that? how much do you value your economy over human rights? who/what would you support in the inerest of your economy? where do you draw the line? how many of your ideals and morals are you willing to trade for some oil? i am not willing to sacrifice any myself, they can keep their fucking oil. i always find it funny when the educated explain or excuse absurd behavior so rationally and calmly, willing to place profit over people like it is the sensible thing to do. willing to sell themselves out for a few dollars.

would you be willing to sell out your mothers rights and freedoms for some oil?


and your right, the Government does talk out of both sides of their mouth..."freedom, deomocracy" and then they suppport and arm some of the most opprseive regimes in the world. you can justify that however you want, i am not interested in selling out my ideals.

mammasan

My question is why haven't we done more to ween ourselves off the Saudi tit. In the 1960's we where able to send a man to the moon. 40 years later and we have not been able to produce and mainstream an alternative fuel source. You can't tell me that by this day and age we shouldn't already have developed and mainstreamed one or at least be pretty damn close. We have been holding back intentinally and my question is why?

even flow?

mammasan wrote:

My question is why haven't we done more to ween ourselves off the Saudi tit. In the 1960's we where able to send a man to the moon. 40 years later and we have not been able to produce and mainstream an alternative fuel source. You can't tell me that by this day and age we shouldn't already have developed and mainstreamed one or at least be pretty damn close. We have been holding back intentinally and my question is why?

Well B the sun has only been around FOREVER, but that is free for the most part. So no use harnessing that. There will be a new fuel when somebody can control it and make a huge profit on it. In the 70's when fuel stations in the States were closed due to the flow being slowwwwwwwed down, should have started the ball rolling. 70's to 00's is about 40 years.

If it were not for the States and friends, there would be no "royalty" in the "kingdom" and they wouldn't fear for their lives having to let the radicals move at will while smiling to their friends in the west. How long ago was that place a barren wasteland with a crap load of oil on it? To appease the locals they now have a thing called royalty and even the locals can see the charade.

my2hands

jlew24asu wrote:

I will and do call out our government for their faults.

then why always the "hate america" nonsense?

but in the case of the kingdom we are fucked. their oil is needed to maintain economic stability in the world.

so what would you suggest with the saudi's ? sanctions? war?

this is an extremely easy answer. public transportation and alternative fuels. such as the thing that has powered this entire solar system for millions of years. solar power, AKA the sun. big picture folks, big picture. no need for intervention, why are americans always loking to intervene with sanctions and war? just get off the fucking oil. it is that easy. but that will never happen since the energy industry owns this fucking country. another way to look at it is the fact the we consume the most oil of any country on the planet (i think) and i think that should give us some clout. supply and demand? the customer is always right? the problem is we do not want to use that clout because we like our situation with our friendly client regimes. whether you want to believe it or not


by the way, corporate america and its puppet government love oppesive regimes. they control the people with an iron fist so business can keep on going without the people demanding something in return for the profits being pumped from under it's soil. we like obedient clients, especially in the middle east.

see The Shah, Sadaam, The Saudi Royal family, the Kuwait monrachy, etc...

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

Grow up already!

so speaking the truth about my government is not childish?

which is it, am i hating america or am i being childish for demanding my country have higher ideals then profit over people?

NCfan

my2hands wrote:

so speaking the truth about my government is not childish?

which is it, am i hating america or am i being childish for demanding my country have higher ideals then profit over people?

For the love of Pete, NO you are NOT childish for calling out your government!!!

You are childish for acusing JLew and others of having "3rd grade nationalistic goggles on", because he has a different view than you do.

Look, I agree with you about selling out your values and morals for money okay? I'm sure all of us do. But the world isn't that simple. I wish it were.

Beucase I condone something like buying Saudi oil even though there society is oppresive, I don't need people like you screaming and pitching a fit that I'm blind and don't understand the "real truth" or my head is stuck in the sand, or I'm just a hard-core conservative, war-mongering hypocrite.....

The reason Jlew and people like me have issue with you and many others on this board like you is becuase ya'll are so blind to your agenda of blowing the whistle on American hypocrisy that you can't even have a reasonable discussion about issues.

We fucking get it already okay??? Isreal is oppresive too, Amreica is oppresive too. We have a long and bloody history of fucking people over around the world. We got it, right? We all understand!!!!!!

It's impossible for me to get across to somebody like yourself that we need Saudi oil because it upholds the economic stability of western civilization.

For all of America's shortcomings, I realize that we are the most open, free society on the face of the earth. We are liberalizing everyday. Progress is being made here, becuase we have a political system in place that not only allows, but fosters change. I happen to think this idea of Democracy trumps everything, in that for now, the ends justify the means in some but not all cases. If it means buying Saudi oil then so be it. If it means starting WWIII then not so much. There is a fine line. I guess I can live with much more than you can. It just seems that ANYTIME America does something wrong, it alomst appears as if you feel vindicated by your feelings toward this country. Whereas I feel embarased for my country, you seem to take pride in being the one to point out how fucked up we are...

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

For the love of Pete, NO you are NOT childish for calling out your government!!!

You are childish for acusing JLew and others of having "3rd grade nationalistic goggles on", because he has a different view than you do.

perhaps you should ask jlew why he has used the term "hate america" so many times on this board instead of hopping down my shit when i call him on it? i have respect for his views, as long as he doesnt accuse me of hating my country becuase i disagree with their policies

as for the rest, i am not even going to read it. i am sure it is more of the same "we have forget our ideals for our economy" bullshit they teach in lame economic 101 classes. i remember my first economics class in college the prefessor stated that layoffs or massive firings were ultimately good for the country and economy... this all reminds me of that mentality


and its not just jlew with this hate america bullshit. i have been hearing it from the fucking frauds on the right for 6 years. and you know what, they can suck my dick. i am tired of that shit. i saw a guy on Scarborough do that to a lady the other day. she was questioing the surge and this "pundit" said she hated america. she fired right back at his ass and made him look like the fool that he is.

my2hands

if a man smacks around your mother, and i surrender my ideals and support him and become ally's with him for my own economic interest what does that make me.

a piece of shit.


same thing, just on a different level because they are smacking around hundreds of thousands of mothers

my2hands

with your logic you guys would do business with Hitler if it kept your precious economy stable.

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

with your logic you guys would do business with Hitler if it kept your precious economy stable.

and we did

mammasan

In NCfans and jlews defense they do have a point. Our economy is so dependent on oil that to suddenly cut it off or send prices sky rocketing would be devestating. The effects would be far worse than anything we can imagine. It is unfortunate but for the time being we have to play nice with Saudi Arabia. We sold our soul to them and it's not going to easy getting it back. What we should have done was back in the 1970, with the gas shortages, was dedicate ourselves to alternate fuel sources. By now we would have completely weened ourselves off oil and the Middle East wouldn't even be an after thought. Unfortunetly for some unexplained reason we didn't and the problems only grew in proportion. We have to do now what should have done 30 years ago. I just hope that Saudi Arabia doesn't fucking implode before we are weened off oil.

Abookamongstthemany

mammasan wrote:

In NCfans and jlews defense they do have a point. Our economy is so dependent on oil that to suddenly cut it off or send prices sky rocketing would be devestating. The effects would be far worse than anything we can imagine. It is unfortunate but for the time being we have to play nice with Saudi Arabia. We sold our soul to them and it's not going to easy getting it back. What we should have done was back in the 1970, with the gas shortages, was dedicate ourselves to alternate fuel sources. By now we would have completely weened ourselves off oil and the Middle East wouldn't even be an after thought. Unfortunetly for some unexplained reason we didn't and the problems only grew in proportion. We have to do now what should have done 30 years ago. I just hope that Saudi Arabia doesn't fucking implode before we are weened off oil.

I believe we could easily have alternatives now...the technology is there. They are milking it for everything they can squeeze out of it.

mammasan

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I believe we could easily have alternatives now...the technology is there. They are milking for everything they can squeeze out of it.

Well that is the problem. We could have easily been free of oil by this point in time, but someone(s) have prevented this from happeneing. I guess you would have o follow the money to see who.

Abookamongstthemany

mammasan wrote:

Well that is the problem. We could have easily been free of oil by this point in time, but someone(s) have prevented this from happeneing. I guess you would have o follow the money to see who.

Separation of Corporation and State

mammasan

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Seperation of Corporation and State

BINGO!!!

NCfan

mammasan wrote:

Well that is the problem. We could have easily been free of oil by this point in time, but someone(s) have prevented this from happeneing. I guess you would have o follow the money to see who.

Yeah, I think this is a great question. Our society has been screwed by somebody and damn if I'm smart enough to figure it out. I wasn't even alive in the 70's!

But I would LOVE somebody to write a book about it and explain why Brazil saw this coming and turned to sugarcane-based ethanol. I mean, the green movement originally started in the 70's didn't it? I think it was dirty word back then, but now people are starting to realize it is the only way to preserve our planet for future generations.

Can' somebody do a documentary or something? I am dying to know what government policies were implemented and what corporations were major players, and who if any scientist spoke out about this 30/40 years ago.

The fact that we are prisoner to other people's oil makes me mad as hell! Here is a great short article that sums up this oil problem and the repercussions we face today.



Insult to Injury

The worst thing about the global oil spike brought on by increased consumption is not worries over global warming, or the idea that the United States is not “energy independent” — Japan does not overly worry that it must rely on others for food — but that our thirst has driven up the world price and with it the importance of the Middle East while sending half-a-trillion dollars in petro-profits to a primordial region.

And now we are seeing the wages of that circulating cash, as the Gulf monarchies are racing to acquire nuclear reactors ($4 billion a pop) to counter Iran’s soon to be online nuclear arsenal.

In other words, a region that has neither the innate economic resources to fund such a program nor the scientific expertise to see it through nor the stability that is the precursor for economic development, has the cash from oil (that someone else found, exploited, and developed) to buy Western help in creating the very weapons that might soon be turned against the West.

The idea of a nuclear Wahhabi state, nearby a nuclear theocracy in Iran, with nuclear Pakistan looking over their shoulders is horrific — especially when coupled with Western appeasement as evidenced by many European diplomats deploring the “militarization” of their continent by U.S. offers to base an ABM shield in Eastern Europe, and the culturally relativistic arguments that if the Western powers are nuclear (U.S., France, U.K., Israel), who is to say a Sharia-run Saudi Arabia or 7th-century Iran should not likewise be? The fact is that already we are confronted with the nightmare that the majority of nuclear powers in the world today is (with India) only democratic by a small margin, and the illiberal states are multiplying and may soon compose an antithetical majority — Russia, China, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran?.

We have the worst choice of leaving this mess to our children who will be faced with both oil and atomic extortion, or the bad one of dealing with it now when the will to is nearly nonexistent in the West. A 1939 all over again. When reading jihadist websites, one is struck not about their worries over the morality of preempting and using a nuclear device against a Western city but only the practicality of carrying it out.

jlew24asu

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I believe we could easily have alternatives now...the technology is there. They are milking it for everything they can squeeze out of it.

I have a hard time accepting this. although i'm sure there is much truth to big business and government blocking it.

if the technology is there, that means someone stands to make a shitload of money. after all, our cars, homes, business, etc all need some sort of resource to get them running. whether it be alternative or not. someone is going to profit highly from alternative fuel source the same way the government, corporations, and the saudi kingdom do with oil.

jlew24asu

my2hands wrote:

1. anytime someone says something critical of the US government he turns to the old "you hate america" bullshit. sorry dude, that doesnt fly with me. this country was founded on dissent, and will continue to evolve because of open dissent. period. and this thread was about saudi arabia and not even the US?

for the record hands, I do not believe you hate america. but they lurk around here.

Abookamongstthemany

mammasan wrote:

BINGO!!!

except my misspelling of SepAration.