Jim Crow alive and well in Saudi Arabia

PJ_Saluki
PJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
edited June 2007 in A Moving Train
Man, these folks need to step into the 20th century. I'm not even asking for the 21st century. Just a little respect for their fellow humans. I guess women are good enough to fuck and raise children but damn them if they want a cup of coffee.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-women6jun06,0,4669523.story?coll=la-home-center

Am I a bigot for wondering if Islam is a bad thing for humanity?
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
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Comments

  • Riverrunner
    Riverrunner Posts: 2,419
    It is very difficult for me NOT to condemn religions, cultures, and individuals who treat women as property or 2nd class citizens. I refuse to even attend a Baptist Church because they don't allow women to be ministers or song leaders or deacons. I think it is wrong. But there is a difference between the Baptists and Islam for example. Any Baptist woman is there by choice. If a woman of Baptist faith decided to go to a Presbytarian church where women are allowed to be leaders she would not be ostracized by her family, her community, etc. A Baptist woman can get a job and take care of herself. She doesn't have to depend on her father or husband. But a Saudi woman has very little, if any, choice. If a Saudi woman were to walk into a Starbucks with a pair of jeans and a tank top, what would happen? Something bad. A Saudi woman is totally dependent on the men in her life. She has no choices to make so she must accept the cultural or else! I think it is terrible that much, if not most, of the world treats women as property or 2nd class citizens. And it is not only Islam, but other religions, nations, and cultures. I hate it, but you can't change the world apparently. I am just thankful I was born where I was when I was.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    Man, these folks need to step into the 20th century. I'm not even asking for the 21st century. Just a little respect for their fellow humans. I guess women are good enough to fuck and raise children but damn them if they want a cup of coffee.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-women6jun06,0,4669523.story?coll=la-home-center

    Am I a bigot for wondering if Islam is a bad thing for humanity?

    Thanks, this was a great read. It's amazing to see how ingrained people can be. It seems people in Saudi Arabia can't imagine life another way. It reminds me that only a few decades ago many in America couldn't fathom equal rights for blacks. I think the MOST important thing is to have a political system that allows and fosters change. I can't wait for the day when we no longer have to buy a drop of Saudi oil!!!!! Here is a great quote below...




    "I am a democrat because I believe that no man or group of men is good enough to be trusted with uncontrolled power over others. And the higher the pretensions of such power, the more dangerous I think it both to rulers and to the subjects. Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber barron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.

    And since Theocracy is the worst, the nearer any government approaches to Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them, like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the very ordinary human passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt. A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right. We never know all the facts about the present and we can only guess the future. To attach to a party programme -- whose highest claim is to reasonable prudence -- the sort of assent which we should reserve for demonstrable theorems, is a kind of intoxication," - C.S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms, ch. 3.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    no one here will care. american is still the true enemy. and doer of all evil .
  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    NCfan wrote:
    Thanks, this was a great read. It's amazing to see how ingrained people can be. It seems people in Saudi Arabia can't imagine life another way. It reminds me that only a few decades ago many in America couldn't fathom equal rights for blacks. I think the MOST important thing is to have a political system that allows and fosters change. I can't wait for the day when we no longer have to buy a drop of Saudi oil!!!!! Here is a great quote below...




    "I am a democrat because I believe that no man or group of men is good enough to be trusted with uncontrolled power over others. And the higher the pretensions of such power, the more dangerous I think it both to rulers and to the subjects. Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber barron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.

    And since Theocracy is the worst, the nearer any government approaches to Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them, like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the very ordinary human passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt. A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right. We never know all the facts about the present and we can only guess the future. To attach to a party programme -- whose highest claim is to reasonable prudence -- the sort of assent which we should reserve for demonstrable theorems, is a kind of intoxication," - C.S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms, ch. 3.


    Awesome quote !!!!
    Music is not a competetion.
  • wavescamecrashing
    wavescamecrashing Posts: 440
    this is really sad.

    my godfather worked out there and its all true, in mcd's they have separate, partitioned booths for women.

    Its not just in saudi though. in the uk we have been seeing an awful lot of honour killings. male relatives kill a daughter, sister, mother, wife, because she has somehow violated their traditions.

    i thought that piece was extremely well written and brave.

    In my humble opinion, condemnation of this sort of thing needs to come from within Islam itself.

    To the original question: the type of islam in saudi arabia is a different type to most other islamic countries and believers. Mecca is there,so im not sure if its sort of like how the vatican is v strict and closed off from the rest of italy. but you are not bigoted to condemn this type of islam as long as you recognise it is only one face of islam,
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    no one here will care. american is still the true enemy. and doer of all evil .


    Much like how our government doesn't really care about how fucked up things are over in the Kingdom of th Al Sa'uds.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    Much like how our government doesn't really care about how fucked up things are over in the Kingdom of th Al Sa'uds.

    saudi arabia. what a fucked up place. we NEED their oil. I hate that fact. i just dont know how to tolerate such a place when we are so dependent on what they have.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    saudi arabia. what a fucked up place. we NEED their oil. I hate that fact. i just dont know how to tolerate such a place when we are so dependent on what they have.

    Well there is the crux of the problem. Saudi Arabia is the home of militant Islam. They teach it in their state run madrahas. The Al Sa'uds fund it to keep the jihadist from lopping their heads of in front of all of Riyadh. Yet we turn a blind eye because of the oil. That is why I can't buy into this war on terrorism when one of the biggest supporters of terrorrism is still conducting business as usually. If our government was serious about combating militant Islam then we should be starting in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan not fucking Iraq.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    mammasan wrote:
    Well there is the crux of the problem. Saudi Arabia is the home of militant Islam. They teach it in their state run madrahas. The Al Sa'uds fund it to keep the jihadist from lopping their heads of in front of all of Riyadh. Yet we turn a blind eye because of the oil. That is why I can't buy into this war on terrorism when one of the biggest supporters of terrorrism is still conducting business as usually. If our government was serious about combating militant Islam then we should be starting in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan not fucking Iraq.

    We should be starting with a new comprehensive, all-encompassing plan to get this country free from imported oil. Then we can cease all business with the Saudi's and whoever else we need to. In 1961 JFK announced that man would go to the moon before the decade was out, and Americans rallied behind his bold vision.

    We need a president to do the same thing, but the goal being green energy independence! But you are right, as it is now we are talking out of both sides of our mouth with our foreign policy.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    Well there is the crux of the problem. Saudi Arabia is the home of militant Islam. They teach it in their state run madrahas. The Al Sa'uds fund it to keep the jihadist from lopping their heads of in front of all of Riyadh. Yet we turn a blind eye because of the oil. That is why I can't buy into this war on terrorism when one of the biggest supporters of terrorrism is still conducting business as usually. If our government was serious about combating militant Islam then we should be starting in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan not fucking Iraq.
    what I dont understand is saudi welcomes us with open arms. allow us to build bases, house soldiers, let us launch attacks from their soil.

    why do they allow this and also fund and encourage its young people to kill infidels in the name of allah. just so fucked up.
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what I dont understand is saudi welcomes us with open arms. allow us to build bases, house soldiers, let us launch attacks from their soil.

    why do they allow this and also fund and encourage its young people to kill infidels in the name of allah. just so fucked up.

    I think there are two different entities at work. One, you have the Saudi royalty who need a good relationship with the US for business and political purposes. We are the ones who are going to go to war to pacify their neighboring Shite threats in Iraq, Syria and Iran. So we protect Saudi Arabia and we make them rich.

    In return, the Saudi royatly gives us double-speak with regards to entity number 2 - the religous leaders who push Sharia on society. The royals cannot divorce themselves from the religous leaders without a cultural/religious war - wich would destroy the country and make it look more like a war-torn Lebanon. So they pay them off. They finance the Madrasas and religous leaders, etc and the religious leaders promise to export their terrorist plots rather than turn their martyers loose on the Kingdom. All the while, the royals promise us they are doing "everything they can" to fight terrorism. And the US just eats it up and encourages this relationship becuase if the royals did try to institute too much reform on their devoutly religous society, then riots/pushback would result - which would threaten the oil supplies.

    The day Saudi Arabia runs out of oil, our relationship with them will change 180 degrees. Everybody knows it, but everybody benefits too much from the current relationship among all the different entities.

    If you think about it, this only encourages the religious leaders to defeat America on other fronts around the world. Because they know they are on borrowed time as well.

    Also, it is probably a good thing that we are giving these jihadist a foreign battlefield to fight on in Iraq. It's much better for Saudi Arabia to ship their militants into Iraq to fuel Sunni militias so we can respond to them with our military rather than our domestic firefighters, police, emergency personell - becuase they have been sitting in Saudi Arabia, twittling their thumbs, and foaming for Jihad - so they plan another 9/11. Let's give all the hotheads a place to get killed.

    People say, "America brought terrorism to IRaq". And I say you're damn right we did. It's called the fly-paper strategy. let's bring them to a battlefield where we can fight them! We may have created more terrorist by going to Iraq, but we also created a way to kill them too. No doubt, terrorist would just breed on their own without our intervention in IRaq. At least this way we have a means to defeat them, or at least their foot-soldiers.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what I dont understand is saudi welcomes us with open arms. allow us to build bases, house soldiers, let us launch attacks from their soil.

    why do they allow this and also fund and encourage its young people to kill infidels in the name of allah. just so fucked up.

    Well they allow us to build the bases there because it is their protection. Regardless of how much money they throw at "Muslim charities" there are still militants out there that want to bring down the Saudi royal family. So the Al Sa'uds need our military hardware and military presense to finalize their protection. We do it for the cheap oil. I'm sure if it wasn't for the oil we wouldn't give a shit as to how many Saudi princes where beheaded in public by radical imans and their followers.

    A few years ago there was a Saudi prince building a 6.1 billion dollar amusment park, with water rides and all, for his personal use. Meanwhile you have people living in the kingdom who don't even have running water. The madrahas, against built and finaced by the royal family with the money we pay to fill our gas tanks, take advantage of the people in this situation. Through their doors come the hundreds, if not thousands, of desperate poor Saudi men and out comes jihadist with pure hatred towards the royal family and the American government that keeps them safe and in power.

    We continue to allow this. We actually finance the very people that want to kill us. Our very government refuses to deal with it, and I'm not just talking about Bush. This love story started way back in 1945 when FDR met with Abdul Aziz al Sa'ud aboard the USS Quincy after the Yalta Conference to discuss a deal of US purchase of Saudi crude. Like NCfan said untill we ween ourselves off the Saudi tit we will never be able to truely combat terrorism, or militant Islam which ever you prefer to call it. If in less than 10 years we where able to put a man on the moon, I think we can develope and mainstream an alternative fuel source in equal or less time. The problem is, and this is where I am puzzled, is why we haven't done this yet.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    I can't wait until the oil is finally dried up and there is actually some motivation for people in power to get their countries out of the middle ages.

    A majority-muslim country like India is a perfect example of how a country can improve itself from within over time... They still have a lot of work to do, but it's amazingly powerful when the citizens of the country and their intelligence are more prized and utilized resources then some fossil fuel in the ground.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    blackredyellow wrote:
    I can't wait until the oil is finally dried up and there is actually some motivation for people in power to get their countries out of the middle ages.

    A majority-muslim country like India is a perfect example of how a country can improve itself from within over time... They still have a lot of work to do, but it's amazingly powerful when the citizens of the country and their intelligence are more prized and utilized resources then some fossil fuel in the ground.

    Unfortunetly that day will not come in our lifetime.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Riverrunner wrote:
    It is very difficult for me NOT to condemn religions, cultures, and individuals who treat women as property or 2nd class citizens. I refuse to even attend a Baptist Church because they don't allow women to be ministers or song leaders or deacons. I think it is wrong. But there is a difference between the Baptists and Islam for example. Any Baptist woman is there by choice. If a woman of Baptist faith decided to go to a Presbytarian church where women are allowed to be leaders she would not be ostracized by her family, her community, etc. A Baptist woman can get a job and take care of herself. She doesn't have to depend on her father or husband. But a Saudi woman has very little, if any, choice. If a Saudi woman were to walk into a Starbucks with a pair of jeans and a tank top, what would happen? Something bad. A Saudi woman is totally dependent on the men in her life. She has no choices to make so she must accept the cultural or else! I think it is terrible that much, if not most, of the world treats women as property or 2nd class citizens. And it is not only Islam, but other religions, nations, and cultures. I hate it, but you can't change the world apparently. I am just thankful I was born where I was when I was.

    it's sad how women still have it rough all over the world, in different ways. i agree with all you say and it makes me so angry that the US supports saudi arabia and gives them so much money. i hate that when the war on terrorism began laura bush was all about helping those afghani women and people made a big deal out of that (this is why the war is good! we're liberating the ladies!), but what about the saudi women? how could they make themselves out to be so benevolent and totally ignore the state of the saudi women? do they think americans are too ignorant to notice that?

    ugh. but i understand how c.j. felt when the bartlett administration renewed that air base and arms sales to qumar.
    "Three weeks ago a woman in Qumar was executed for adultery. She didn't need a lawyer 'cause there was no trial. It was her husband's word against hers. . . . Later today I'm going to be announcing that we're selling them tanks and guns."
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    VictoryGin wrote:
    ugh. but i understand how c.j. felt when the bartlett administration renewed that air base and arms sales to qumar.
    "Three weeks ago a woman in Qumar was executed for adultery. She didn't need a lawyer 'cause there was no trial. It was her husband's word against hers. . . . Later today I'm going to be announcing that we're selling them tanks and guns."


    Art imitating life.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    jlew24asu wrote:
    no one here will care. american is still the true enemy. and doer of all evil .


    hey chief, saudi arabia is one of our main ally's. so, um, what do you have to say about that? we fucking support them!

    so much for spreading "freedom and deomocracy"

    you are like a broken record that refuses to look at your government in an honest fashion and call it out on its faults. dont you want your government to betetr represent you and your ideals? if you do then stop with the "hating america" bullshit.

    some people just choose to take off the 3rd grade nationalistic beer goggles and call it how they see it. you can stay in your little fantasy land where the USA government can do no wrong and is always fighting for truth and justice, like supporting this saudi monarchy that oppesses its people :rolleyes:
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    my2hands wrote:
    hey chief, saudi arabia is one of our main ally's. so, um, what do you have to say about that? we fucking support them!

    so much for spreading "freedom and deomocracy"

    you are like a broken record that refuses to look at your government in an honest fashion and call it out on its faults. dont you want your government to betetr represent you and your ideals? if you do then stop with the "hating america" bullshit.

    some people just choose to take off the 3rd grade nationalistic beer goggles and call it how they see it. you can stay in your little fantasy land where the USA government can do no wrong and is always fighting for truth and justice, like supporting this saudi monarchy that oppesses its people :rolleyes:

    Grow up already! Let me break it down for you...

    I'm not gonna speak for Jlew, but I'm pretty sure he would agree with me in having NO PROBLEM AT ALL pointing out the faults of our government. I will say it plain as day here that we speak out of both sides of our mouth in regards to foreign policy to serve our own interest and further our own agenda. Are you happy now? Do you care to go on about our "fantasy land" and "3rd grade goggles"??????????

    The bottom line is that America and the rest of Western civilaztion benefits more for a stable flow of oil and a stable governement in Saudi Arabia than if we tried to put sanctions on them in order to force social change. Do you have any idea what would happen in the world, if the price of oil shot up to $100/$120 a barrel? Do you know what kind of economic repercusions that would have on the world economy and how that would undermine our own governemnt?

    If we went into a major recession or depression, it would be extremely detrimental to our security becuase for one reason, we would be in a vulnerable position of weakness and our enemies would be floating in money, literally, making them much, much stronger. Does that make sense to you?

    Can you not see how our hands are tied at the moment with regards to Saudi Arabia????
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    I just wanna know how much would 500 billion and 3500 extra people would do for us developing and deploying alternative energy to rid or greatly reduce our dependence on oil?

    I have no idea but how abundant is natural gas and propane in north America?

    There's gotta be better way to do it than with a caveman club and boomstick
    .
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    hey chief, saudi arabia is one of our main ally's. so, um, what do you have to say about that? we fucking support them!

    so much for spreading "freedom and deomocracy"

    you are like a broken record that refuses to look at your government in an honest fashion and call it out on its faults. dont you want your government to betetr represent you and your ideals? if you do then stop with the "hating america" bullshit.

    some people just choose to take off the 3rd grade nationalistic beer goggles and call it how they see it. you can stay in your little fantasy land where the USA government can do no wrong and is always fighting for truth and justice, like supporting this saudi monarchy that oppesses its people :rolleyes:

    I will and do call out our government for their faults. but in the case of the kingdom we are fucked. their oil is needed to maintain economic stability in the world.

    so what would you suggest with the saudi's ? sanctions? war?

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