Once divided, nothing left to subtract

Anon

I believe, that if Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show them four more years of the Bush-Cheney 'fuck you' finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

Until now, anti-Americanism has been exaggerated and much misunderstood. Outside a leftist hardcore, it has mostly been anti-Bushism, opposition to this specific administration. But if McCain wins in November, that might well change. Suddenly Europeans and others will conclude that their dispute is with not only one ruling clique, but Americans themselves. For it will have been the American people, not the politicians, who will have passed up a chance for a fresh start, and whether we like it or not, a fresh start the world is yearning for.

g under p

Something anything different is much needed especially in the eyes of the rest of the world. It is unreal how and what the right s saying over on the Hannity site.

Peace

MrBrian

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

wolfbear

Agreed. It's amazing to me how Bush "squandered" the good will of the rest of the world to the US after 9/11. If McCain is elected, I will be sad along with most others.

SoonForgotten2

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

The fact that Americans don't stop to question what the fuck the deal is with Israel and how significant that is, is reason enough for them to share the blame.

jimed14

g under p wrote:

Something anything different is much needed especially in the eyes of the rest of the world. It is unreal how and what the right s saying over on the Hannity site.

Peace

you would think it was Bill Ayers himself up against John McCain the way they talk over there.

Anon

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

I guess my point is that we (USA) have made terrible mistakes in the past and made many poor decisions. Like it or not, those mistakes have had a huge impact on the rest of the world, and whilst we can't do a lot to undo the hurt we have done, and take back our poor decisions, we can absolutely do something to make better decisions for the future.

Anon

g under p wrote:

Something anything different is much needed especially in the eyes of the rest of the world. It is unreal how and what the right s saying over on the Hannity site.

Peace

They are certainly a bit different aren't they.

g under p

jimed14 wrote:

you would think it was Bill Ayers himself up against John McCain the way they talk over there.

In one thread they mainly wanted to have people who spoke out against McCain to be banned for being trolls and just being registered.

No one should have a dissenting point of view I gather.

Peace

wolfbear

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

I didn't have a problem with Afghanistan. I did with Iraq. I think most would agree. But, in the end, Bush and his advisors were just wrong on so many levels, and took the US into terrible territory.

jeffbr

My consideration of how the rest of the world feels about my vote is so far down the list of priorities in my decision making that it might as well be non-existent.

jimed14

g under p wrote:

In one thread they mainly wanted to have people who spoke out against McCain to be banned for being trolls and just being registered.

No one should have a dissenting point of view I gather.

Peace

it'll be intersting to go over there Tuesday night ... if, (IF) Obama wins ... to see all the people crying "Voter Fruad" ... it's actually already started.

jeffbr

jimed14 wrote:

it'll be intersting to go over there Tuesday night ... if, (IF) Obama wins ... to see all the people crying "Voter Fruad" ... it's actually already started.

It doesn't matter who wins. There will be tools from the other side crying Voter Fraud. We've seen Obama supports on this site saying the same thing. Although clearly the McCain supporters' claims will be much less reality-based given Obama's lead in the polls.

Anon

jeffbr wrote:

My consideration of how the rest of the world feels about my vote is so far down the list of priorities in my decision making that it might as well be non-existent.

That's a fair enough comment. As long as we don't forget that our decisions of the past have impacted the rest of the world.

Fair enough?

jeffbr

Pj_Gurl wrote:

That's a fair enough comment. As long as we don't forget that our decisions of the past have impacted the rest of the world.

Fair enough?

Definitely. And I agree that the rest of the world would feel much better about us electing Obama rather than McCain. But I'm not voting for either of them on princple, so my vote won't really influence the rest of the world anyway.

MrBrian

wolfbear wrote:

I didn't have a problem with Afghanistan. I did with Iraq. I think most would agree. But, in the end, Bush and his advisors were just wrong on so many levels, and took the US into terrible territory.

At all? I mean you trusted Bush to lead the country into that war on terror thing? A war that has killed soooo many innocent people. A war that has created more terrorism than it has stopped. You dont have an Issue with that?

I think Americans shouldve asked more questions after 9/11, not just Back Bush going into aghanistan. It was obvious that it would be a mess.

angryyoungman

MrBrian wrote:

At all? I mean you trusted Bush to lead the country into that war on terror thing? A war that has killed soooo many innocent people. A war that has created more terrorism than it has stopped. You dont have an Issue with that?

I think Americans shouldve asked more questions after 9/11, not just Back Bush going into aghanistan. It was obvious that it would be a mess.

not that i agree with bush on much of anything but did you forget we were attacked and all the innocent people lost in THAT attack? sure there was a little questioning, but like the other guy said i think most americans supported the afganastan war. . .iraq is the one everyone has and still does have a problem with. . . and the fact that the american people were lied to about a correlation between afganastan and iraq

Austicman

Although I'd like to see Obama win. I think both candidates and light years better than two main party candidates at your last election.

MrBrian

angryyoungman wrote:

not that i agree with bush on much of anything but did you forget we were attacked and all the innocent people lost in THAT attack? sure there was a little questioning, but like the other guy said i think most americans supported the afganastan war. . .iraq is the one everyone has and still does have a problem with. . . and the fact that the american people were lied to about a correlation between afganastan and iraq

I dont really care that most people supported the war on Afghanistan. universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.

I know many people died on 9/11, that does not mean you go invade another country with only revenge on your mind. Americans did not even wonder why they got attacked.

You even admit about the little questioning. Is that not a big problem to you?

Another thing, yes Bush and co lied to the American people, but why did the Americans not find any info out for themselves? Did you fall for the Iraq war story? I didnt.

Most of the world did not fall for it. It was obvioulsy a bad idea. It's just an excuse "They lied to us"

wolfbear

MrBrian wrote:

At all? I mean you trusted Bush to lead the country into that war on terror thing? A war that has killed soooo many innocent people. A war that has created more terrorism than it has stopped. You dont have an Issue with that?

I think Americans shouldve asked more questions after 9/11, not just Back Bush going into aghanistan. It was obvious that it would be a mess.

While I agree we should have asked more questions, my point was that we did have reasons for Afghanistan. Not so for Iraq.

MrBrian

wolfbear wrote:

While I agree we should have asked more questions, my point was that we did have reasons for Afghanistan. Not so for Iraq.

You know, I honestly dont think America had enough reasons to launch an attack on Afghanistan. Not when one looks at the possible Israeli connection and the many other un answered questions.

I knew a war on Afghanistan was not a good idea. It would not stop any terrorism. Based on that, I feel America had more reasons not to launch an attack and rather ask the questions and find a better solution.

I'm also thinking more long term, what if America gets hit with another 9/11? Say the word is it came from Iran. The American people would again be revenge crazy like after 9/11. Only will they ask more questions this time? Or will a powerful Obama "We will defend ourselves and punish Iran" kinda speech get Americans to back it?

Many different variables to consider.

Even the first gulf war, many Americans (to this day) were for that war, they liked it. America painted Iraq as evil, Kuwait as the victims and themselves as the Hero. Did Americans ask anything about the Kuwaiti directional drilling?

Or the whole "The U.S. takes no position in Arab border disputes" in reference to Iraq and Kuwait. Was that really said? Was it a US trap?

I think Americans must question every action the US tries as far as wars go.

meistereder

In my opinion, international diplomacy is a legitimate electoral issue. International diplomacy with McCain would, in my judgment, be more or less a continuation of the Bush principles (i.e., a big fuck off to the rest of teh world). Based on what I have seen from Obama so far, that will not be the case with him. I think he truly wants to gain back some of our good will, and I think that's extremely important right now, even though some people will always complaint that he is "bowing down to Europe" or whatever. Like it or not, we have to play ball with Europe, or we will be more screwed than we already are.

EP1973

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

Bush barely won both elections..well, he barely won in 2004 and was flat out given the election in 2000...so, it's not like all of America backs him. I feel the invasion of Afghanistan was justified...it's the invasion of Iraq I have problems with cuz it wasn't justified.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

The fact that Americans don't stop to question what the fuck the deal is with Israel and how significant that is, is reason enough for them to share the blame.

Actually, I'd like to see some honest polls on this topic. I can only imagine the massive effect the media has had on people.

Heineken Helen

jeffbr wrote:

Definitely. And I agree that the rest of the world would feel much better about us electing Obama rather than McCain. But I'm not voting for either of them on princple, so my vote won't really influence the rest of the world anyway.

Oh I agree completely. It's easy for us to sit here and think 'what are they doing' but I understand that you should not consider anyone else when thinking about your vote... that's just stupid!

I think we'll just all be very disappointed if McCain wins :( . Most of us know that there's a big split amongst people and half Americans hated the Bush thing. BUT some people just see that Bush won twice and if McCain now won.... I think that would be too much for some people. And I don't mean in a threatening way but I think it could make it harder for Americans outside of the states cos people will be less understanding... even though, from my experience of meeting Americans outside of the states, very few of them are Republicans so it would be ironic that they'd be left with the guilt I know one girl who voted for Bush in the last election and she greatly regrets that.

Heineken Helen

angryyoungman wrote:

not that i agree with bush on much of anything but did you forget we were attacked and all the innocent people lost in THAT attack? sure there was a little questioning, but like the other guy said i think most americans supported the afganastan war. . .iraq is the one everyone has and still does have a problem with. . . and the fact that the american people were lied to about a correlation between afganastan and iraq

It's easy for us to sit here and say 'no you shouldn't have went to war' but if my country were attacked and thousands were killed... there's NO way that we'd just sit back and do nothing... although, being a neutral country, we probably would :rolleyes: but I think it would awaken people from their contentment. At the very least, the IRA would come back anyway :rolleyes:

acoustic guy

This thread proves that the OP and most of you in here have no idea what McCain stands for or who he is. Very sad. "Lets vote for the popular guy because he looks good and speaks well. He says change so hey thats for me".
Please people. At least understand what McCain is all about and what he believes in.

Bunch of lambs.

polaris

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's easy for us to sit here and say 'no you shouldn't have went to war' but if my country were attacked and thousands were killed... there's NO way that we'd just sit back and do nothing... although, being a neutral country, we probably would :rolleyes: but I think it would awaken people from their contentment. At the very least, the IRA would come back anyway :rolleyes:

it's called the shock doctrine ... "catastrophic" events allow people of power to do whatever they basically want because the general populace are "shocked" into a state of fear and will blindly follow ...

inmytree

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

please feel free to blame those who voted for bush...and please understand that not every American supported him and his policies...

inmytree

acoustic guy wrote:

This thread proves that the OP and most of you in here have no idea what McCain stands for or who he is. Very sad. "Lets vote for the popular guy because he looks good and speaks well. He says change so hey thats for me".
Please people. At least understand what McCain is all about and what he believes in.

Bunch of lambs.

fine, tell me what McCain "stands for"....other that attacking Obama, I've heard very little substance...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

it's called the shock doctrine ... "catastrophic" events allow people of power to do whatever they basically want because the general populace are "shocked" into a state of fear and will blindly follow ...

oh I know all about that... but it's a natural reaction and my guess is quite a few countries would do the same.