Once divided, nothing left to subtract

meistereder

In my opinion, international diplomacy is a legitimate electoral issue. International diplomacy with McCain would, in my judgment, be more or less a continuation of the Bush principles (i.e., a big fuck off to the rest of teh world). Based on what I have seen from Obama so far, that will not be the case with him. I think he truly wants to gain back some of our good will, and I think that's extremely important right now, even though some people will always complaint that he is "bowing down to Europe" or whatever. Like it or not, we have to play ball with Europe, or we will be more screwed than we already are.

EP1973

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

Bush barely won both elections..well, he barely won in 2004 and was flat out given the election in 2000...so, it's not like all of America backs him. I feel the invasion of Afghanistan was justified...it's the invasion of Iraq I have problems with cuz it wasn't justified.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

The fact that Americans don't stop to question what the fuck the deal is with Israel and how significant that is, is reason enough for them to share the blame.

Actually, I'd like to see some honest polls on this topic. I can only imagine the massive effect the media has had on people.

Heineken Helen

jeffbr wrote:

Definitely. And I agree that the rest of the world would feel much better about us electing Obama rather than McCain. But I'm not voting for either of them on princple, so my vote won't really influence the rest of the world anyway.

Oh I agree completely. It's easy for us to sit here and think 'what are they doing' but I understand that you should not consider anyone else when thinking about your vote... that's just stupid!

I think we'll just all be very disappointed if McCain wins :( . Most of us know that there's a big split amongst people and half Americans hated the Bush thing. BUT some people just see that Bush won twice and if McCain now won.... I think that would be too much for some people. And I don't mean in a threatening way but I think it could make it harder for Americans outside of the states cos people will be less understanding... even though, from my experience of meeting Americans outside of the states, very few of them are Republicans so it would be ironic that they'd be left with the guilt I know one girl who voted for Bush in the last election and she greatly regrets that.

Heineken Helen

angryyoungman wrote:

not that i agree with bush on much of anything but did you forget we were attacked and all the innocent people lost in THAT attack? sure there was a little questioning, but like the other guy said i think most americans supported the afganastan war. . .iraq is the one everyone has and still does have a problem with. . . and the fact that the american people were lied to about a correlation between afganastan and iraq

It's easy for us to sit here and say 'no you shouldn't have went to war' but if my country were attacked and thousands were killed... there's NO way that we'd just sit back and do nothing... although, being a neutral country, we probably would :rolleyes: but I think it would awaken people from their contentment. At the very least, the IRA would come back anyway :rolleyes:

acoustic guy

This thread proves that the OP and most of you in here have no idea what McCain stands for or who he is. Very sad. "Lets vote for the popular guy because he looks good and speaks well. He says change so hey thats for me".
Please people. At least understand what McCain is all about and what he believes in.

Bunch of lambs.

polaris

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's easy for us to sit here and say 'no you shouldn't have went to war' but if my country were attacked and thousands were killed... there's NO way that we'd just sit back and do nothing... although, being a neutral country, we probably would :rolleyes: but I think it would awaken people from their contentment. At the very least, the IRA would come back anyway :rolleyes:

it's called the shock doctrine ... "catastrophic" events allow people of power to do whatever they basically want because the general populace are "shocked" into a state of fear and will blindly follow ...

inmytree

MrBrian wrote:

You know, I honestly feel that Americans should blame themselves also. They voted for Bush twice. Also the dems were constantly supporting him and to this day do not even want him impeached. Including Obama who does not feel that Bush has done anything bad enough to deserve it.

Most Americans gave Bush the green light to go into Afghanistan. Mistake number one. They just wanted revenge.

please feel free to blame those who voted for bush...and please understand that not every American supported him and his policies...

inmytree

acoustic guy wrote:

This thread proves that the OP and most of you in here have no idea what McCain stands for or who he is. Very sad. "Lets vote for the popular guy because he looks good and speaks well. He says change so hey thats for me".
Please people. At least understand what McCain is all about and what he believes in.

Bunch of lambs.

fine, tell me what McCain "stands for"....other that attacking Obama, I've heard very little substance...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

it's called the shock doctrine ... "catastrophic" events allow people of power to do whatever they basically want because the general populace are "shocked" into a state of fear and will blindly follow ...

oh I know all about that... but it's a natural reaction and my guess is quite a few countries would do the same.

polaris

acoustic guy wrote:

This thread proves that the OP and most of you in here have no idea what McCain stands for or who he is. Very sad. "Lets vote for the popular guy because he looks good and speaks well. He says change so hey thats for me".
Please people. At least understand what McCain is all about and what he believes in.

Bunch of lambs.

dude ... only a lamb would vote to continue with the GOP ... mccain/palin are puppets ... just because bush is gone doesn't mean the party changes ... it doesn't work that way ...

polaris

Heineken Helen wrote:

oh I know all about that... but it's a natural reaction and my guess is quite a few countries would do the same.

well ... yes, that's what they want ... so, although you're right ... not many other countries would be involved in something like this ...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

well ... yes, that's what they want ... so, although you're right ... not many other countries would be involved in something like this ...

Not many other countries COULD be involved in something like this

And I know that's what they want... don't you know about me and my conspiracy theories by now? I do think everything's orchestrated... I don't feel we should blame average joe for wanting revenge on the people who attacked their country though... cos not many people see or want to see the bigger picture!

acoustic guy

inmytree wrote:

fine, tell me what McCain "stands for"....other that attacking Obama, I've heard very little substance...

I have no time to educate you on where Mccain stands. I will say that Obama spent more time and energy then Macain did on attack adds though.
Do the homework yourself.

Heineken Helen

acoustic guy wrote:

I have no time to educate you on where Mccain stands. I will say that Obama spent more time and energy then Macain did on attack adds though.
Do the homework yourself.

the election's what... tomorrow? Here's your chance to sway a few people

inmytree

acoustic guy wrote:

I have no time to educate you on where Mccain stands. I will say that Obama spent more time and energy then Macain did on attack adds though.
Do the homework yourself.

I see you've got nothin'....

all I know is, McCain has played the Guilt by Association card and he is more concerned about those who make a quarter of a Million a year over the middle class...

and that he has man-crush on Joe the Plumber..

ZepZach

Ok, I'm getting really sick of this. I can't wait for this election to be over. I voted Obama, and you know what? I DID MY HOMEWORK. I watched his speeches, I read his plans, I read McCain's plans and watched his speeches. I fact checked when they lied. I determined how important all of the "character flaws" of both candidates were for me. I looked up their stances on issues and how they relate to my ideas on the direction I want to see this country move.

I DID NOT vote for Obama because he looks good and makes good speeches. I AM NOT a blind sheep because I agree with the candidate who is more popular at the moment. I DID make a very tough decision because I agree with a lot of what McCain says and disagree with a few of Obama's ideas. For anyone to accuse me of being uneducated about my decision is ridiculous and a huge jump of logic.

jimed14

acoustic guy wrote:

I have no time to educate you on where Mccain stands. I will say that Obama spent more time and energy then Macain did on attack adds though.
Do the homework yourself.

but McCain had a higher percentage of total ads that were negative ...

it goes both ways.

decides2dream

Pj_Gurl wrote:

I believe, that if Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show them four more years of the Bush-Cheney 'fuck you' finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

Until now, anti-Americanism has been exaggerated and much misunderstood. Outside a leftist hardcore, it has mostly been anti-Bushism, opposition to this specific administration. But if McCain wins in November, that might well change. Suddenly Europeans and others will conclude that their dispute is with not only one ruling clique, but Americans themselves. For it will have been the American people, not the politicians, who will have passed up a chance for a fresh start, and whether we like it or not, a fresh start the world is yearning for.

agreed.
however, i think we as a country would also ve saying 'fuck you' to ourselves as well. i seriously hope, collectively, we are not that stupid. however, after bush getting elected TWICE no less, sadly, it wouldn't surprise me. i just hope the majority of americans feel and think as i do. so a big HELL NO to mccain.....and YES to obama! from a domestic AND foreign relations pov, i think it is SO necessary.

stuckinline

the rest of the world is watching this election

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081103/ap_on_re_as/us_elections_world_view


JAKARTA, Indonesia – When Sri Murtiningsi asked her third graders what they wanted to be when they grew up, the answers ranged from doctors to a pilot. One boy in the class raised his hand: Barack Obama said his dream was to be president of the United States.
Forty years later Murtiningsi — like the rest of the world — is watching closely as Americans prepare to head to the polls Tuesday.
"Barry was the only one who said he wanted to be president ... I hope his dream comes true," Murtiningsi said of Obama, who spent four years living in Indonesia as a child.
Many believe Obama's international experience would go a long way in helping repair damage caused by the unpopular U.S.-led war in Iraq, with recent opinion polls from more than 70 nations favoring him a resounding three-to-one over Republican John McCain.
Newspapers across the globe came out in support of the Democratic candidate Monday.
"Obama the best hope for U.S. revival," said an editorial in The Australian Financial Review. The Gulf News, an English-language paper in the United Arab Emirates, agreed, saying only he could "undo the great damage done by the Bush administration to America's image," especially in the Middle East. Obama "deserves to win," declared The Irish Times.
In Israel, though, where McCain is popular, the Maariv daily reported that officials are worried about an Obama presidency because of his willingness to hold diplomatic talks with Iran. Israel believes the international community must not embrace Iran's president, who has repeatedly called for Israel's destruction.
"Obama is very naive about how things work in the Middle East. He thinks that by being nice to Iran they will stop building nuclear weapons and stop threatening us. He doesn't understand that being nice doesn't work in our region," said Ariel Hajaj, a 36-year-old Jerusalem contractor. "McCain understands the way things work here better his approach is more suited the Middle East and he would be better for Israel."
Obama's presidential bid has sparked excitement in Kenya, home to his late father, with thousands turning out for the Democratic candidate's last visit in 2006.
"Everybody is extremely happy and excited and looking forward to celebrating the day after the elections," said Malik Obama, the candidate's half brother.
In the sleepy Japanese coastal town of Obama — which translates as "little beach," images of the Democratic candidate adorn banners along a main shopping street and preparations for an election day victory party were in full swing Monday.
Koichi Inoue, who makes traditional sweet bean cakes, said his factory was working at double normal production because he had promised free handouts for every customer if Obama came out on top.
"It looks like he is going to win from the polls so I've got to be ready," he said.
Election fever was also high in Vietnam, where McCain was held prisoner of war for more than five years after the U.S. fighter pilot was shot down in Hanoi during a 1967 bombing run.
Le Lan Anh, a Hanoi real estate tycoon and novelist, says McCain is "a great man," because he passed up the opportunity to leave prison early ahead of other U.S. inmates.
"He's patriotic. As a soldier, he came here to destroy my country, but I admire his dignity," she said.
As a U.S. senator in the 1990s, McCain helped normalize bilateral relations, so he is "someone who understands Vietnam," said Phan Manh Tien, 54, a retired soldier and truck driver. Still, he prefers Obama because he sees the Democrat as less hawkish.
Many in Pakistan, a close ally in the U.S. war on terror, will be glued to television sets on Election Day. The results, they say, will have broad implications for their own country and neighboring Afghanistan, where American forces have been battling the Taliban and its al-Qaida allies.
The last eight years have "affected our economy and our peace," said Mohammad Zubair, a 33-year-old lawyer in Lahore, who anticipates an Obama win. "I hope the election will bring change to Pakistan as well."
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