Was christianity a hoax?

sourdough

Ahnimus wrote:

Jesus fits the "hero" formula that thousands of people before him and after him fit. He's just another myth, a bed time story.

I am an atheist, but Jesus was not just a bed time story. There is tons of historical evidence of Christian and non-christian origins (ie. Pre-Christianized Rome) of his existance and that he was a significant figure. Whether or not he performed miracles or was the son of god is another story, but he did unquestionably exist.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

longevity isn't a requirement of existence is it?

No, but I don't get the point of quantifying the experience down to electrical impulses.

It's like the image on the TV screen exists as an electrical impulse before it ever reaches the CRT, but it doesn't exist as an actual event that it is designed to represent.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

That makes sense. I can understand that. And in the end that does not disprove God or religion. (and I don't think you intended to disprove it, either.)

i don't think religion has a path except one that is relevant to the individual. religion is a tool to get one to where they feel they need to be. if one believes of course. i am an athiest so to me i am the only tool required to get me to where i am going in regards to my spirituality. in essense, i am my own God.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

No, but I don't get the point of quantifying the experience down to electrical impulses.

It's like the image on the TV screen exists as an electrical impulse before it ever reaches the CRT, but it doesn't exist as an actual event that it is designed to represent.

but it does exist as a representation. and that's all it is and we know it.

basqo

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

i don't think religion has a path except one that is relevant to the individual. religion is a tool to get one to where they feel they need to be. if one believes of course. i am an athiest so to me i am the only tool required to get me to where i am going in regards to my spirituality. in essense, i am my own God.

I like that you can speak diplomatically. I completely agree that religion/spirituality is subjective and not objective. I am my own God, too by the way.

catefrances

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

this is based on hope. why does there have to be something else?
and it's not about being prideful in our 'belief' that God doesn't exist. it's a choice many of us made many years ago through circumstances. for the first 11 years of my life i believed what i was told. i had no reason not to. then i decided things made no sense to me and it was time to make up my own mind. religion began not to make sense and so i became an atheist. and yes once i am dead, that is it. i return to the earth just like all the other living organisms eventually do. and the world goes on. we never trully 'disappear' because we are kept alive in the memories of those we leave behind. there is no purpose to life. life is what you make it.

Ahnimus

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

Atheists tend to cause/effect relationships, but I don't advocate purpose. I don't think we have a purpose other than to serve our biosphere.

I personally welcome non-existence. It's hard to grasp, but I feel that non-existence is infinitely more peaceful than existence in any form.

sourdough

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

I love the idea that you only get one shot at life. I personally think the whole idea of eternal life is quite unappealing. Life is meaningful to me, because it is unknown and unperfect.

As for the afterlife, what I think is awesome is that we return to the earth. The atoms that we are composed of are eternal. We were all at one time or another a tree, a rock, drop of water, a dinosaur. We have shared atoms with Einstein, Jesus and Moses. After we die, our bodies return to the earth and our atoms continue to pass through to the earth, other people and everything else on this planet. We are everlasting. I think thats cool in a geeky kind of way.

spiral out

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

Whats wrong with actually living in the here and now and enjoying every single second of your life as you live it? Why does there need to be some god for you to be comfortable with living?

rigneyclan

catefrances wrote:

this is based on hope. why does there have to be something else?
and it's not about being prideful in our 'belief' that God doesn't exist. it's a choice many of us made many years ago through circumstances. for the first 11 years of my life i believed what i was told. i had no reason not to. then i decided things made no sense to me and it was time to make up my own mind. religion began not to make sense and so i became an atheist. and yes once i am dead, that is it. i return to the earth just like all the other living organisms eventually do. and the world goes on. we never trully 'disappear' because we are kept alive in the memories of those we leave behind. there is no purpose to life. life is what you make it.

I completely agree. Great post.

Ahnimus

sourdough wrote:

I am an atheist, but Jesus was not just a bed time story. There is tons of historical evidence of Christian and non-christian origins (ie. Pre-Christianized Rome) of his existance and that he was a significant figure. Whether or not he performed miracles or was the son of god is another story, but he did unquestionably exist.

Yea, Christ existed, but so did Apollonius, he was also a miracle-monger. He spread his philosophical beliefs by performing miracles and convincing people of his doctrine which was designed to foster morality.

That's the point, there are plenty of Christ like historical people. Odysseus is another one. The virgin birth was claimed elsewhere as well. Yet, it's outright impossible. Parthenogenesis is when females reproduce without male partners. This is common in other species, but could happen to humans I guess. Problem is, a male partner is needed for a Y chromosome. Women don't have Y chromosomes, the offspring of parthenogenesis has to be female. So maybe it was Judith Christ.

And if you argue that God planted the Y chromosome, then according to history, God has a lot of children, not just one. So maybe Judith, Odysseus and Apollonius are chillin' in heaven play skeetball or some junk. I don't know what people do in heaven. Worry about the future? The grand battle between good and evil. What's after that? Does that just go on for eternity, or do we get infinitely better video games? Do we ascend to better selves that don't have diverse personalities? We are all perfect "thinkers" basically clones following robotic patterns.

Yea, I don't like the idea of believing in something that doesn't conform to known truths and has so many holes and uncertainties in it. It's not even like there is a formula, it's just "A miracle happens" created by some omnipotent being that has nothing better to do than play ant war with his farm. I mean, we focus on our "creation" so much, what about God's origin? If you were God, wouldn't you be wondering "Where the hell did I come from?" "What's my purpose?". So apparently God has a name Yahweh. Who gave him the name? Do perfect beings call themselves "Yahweh"? Or was it given to him? By who? But God is perfect and perfect is happy and good. Then there is that part where you go to hell and burn in agonizing suffering for all of eternity if you don't believe in God and the doctrine. Oh, just mellow that part out, say the book isn't literal, it's just "based on a true story".

Kind of like how "Natural Born Killers" is based on the Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate story. But the names are changed to Micky and Malary Knox, some of the events are changed, events are added, characters are manipulated and plot added. A whole bunch of stuff happens that has nothing to do with the truth. "Starkweather" is also based on the story, but the same thing happens. Two movies and 3 online sources and I got 5 different stories. Some things are facts and some things are fiction. That's the bible to the nth degree.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, because it's totally ridiculous. I can barely stand this crud that manipulates society and perception. But, it's never going to end, because it's fucked. People live faster lives, they don't take the time to think about shit. Sure Atheism is a growing belief, but that's just half the story. There is all kinds of myths that become a reality within society.

rigneyclan

Many believe that the Roman solar god Mithras was the inspiration for mythical Jesus. The following is an inscription found on the ruins of an ancient Roman temple dedicated to Mithras: "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

"How about the fact that Mithras was known by his followers as the "Light of the World" and "The Good Shepard," and told his followers to practice ritual communion meals of bread and wine. Is it any coincedence now, that the religion of Mithras died out about the same time when Christianity was getting popular?"

Sounds pretty Jesus like, huh?

I found that out from a pretty funny video posted on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dnxHmvrrW0

Matt8townsend

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

Atheists don't love 'purpose' at all - to imply purpose is to anthropomorthise nature and the laws of physics, but yeah we do love explanations. In my view God is the complete abdication of the need to provide an explanation. Whenever there is something science can't explain people insert 'God' to fill the gap and then get around the point of regress by saying God himself is timeless and needs no explanation. Case in point: 'How did existence begin?' - 'um we don't know so lets say God made the universe exist'. It's like God is a synonym for 'We don't know' - but with a directive not to actually seek the 'real' answer. Religion loves the Gaps - the Catholic Church would be far happier if there never was a Galileo, a Copernicus, a Newton or a Darwin because it would mean more gaps within which God can dwell.

Your statement about why you beleive reads like wish fulfillment - God exists because I want him to and its better to think like that (not saying that is your basis - i don;t know you well enough to judge).

And I definitely don't take 'pride' in beleiving death is the end - I'd love to be able to think otherwise - I just can honestly come to that conclusion.

cornnifer

Matt8townsend wrote:

Atheists don't love 'purpose' at all - to imply purpose is to anthropomorthise nature and the laws of physics, but yeah we do love explanations. In my view God is the complete abdication of the need to provide an explanation. Whenever there is something science can't explain people insert 'God' to fill the gap and then get around the point of regress by saying God himself is timeless and needs no explanation. Case in point: 'How did existence begin?' - 'um we don't know so lets say God made the universe exist'. It's like God is a synonym for 'We don't know' - but with a directive not to actually seek the 'real' answer Darwin because it would mean more gaps within which God can dwell.

quote]

Except for the fact that this is not generally what theists do. in fact there are many, many hardcore scientists who have come to adopt a thiestic worldview BECAUSE their scientific studies in their respective disciplines.
Besides, how would that be any different than the atheist inserting for the unknown "We can't figure it out, but some day we will, because it for damn sure isn't God"

Collin

basqo wrote:

it's pretty sad to me that most of you guys seem to be atheists. I'm not saying your stupid because, you're right, people who do believe have no concrete evidence of a God. But here's the thing, do atheists take pride in their belief that after we die it's over? That we just cease to be and the world goes on as if we never existed? Personally, I like to think that there is something else. Life is too complex and random in and of itself to be just happenstance. Atheists love purposes and explanations, so what is the purpose of life? If there is a God, there exists a clear purpose. That's why I believe. There has to be something else.

I'm an atheist. I believe that when I die, that's it. I cease to exist. My body will be rotting and as the earth keeps turning no visual aspect of me will be left. I may leave something that will help people remember me, a book, a journal, a video tape, a drawing, a poem... I'll leave behind memories in the hearts of my friends and family, good ones and bad ones. But as they die, so will these memories, and in the end everything that can be connected to me in some way will be come meaningless, insignificant and soulless.

I don't really think there's a defined purpose of life. I think each person has to fill in what he thinks should be the purpose. I've found that making people happy, helping people, sharing... makes me happy, not always, but I feel that's what I want to do, that's what I want life to be about. And I have also found out I'd rather be happy than sad or miserable and that's why I pursue these things.

I've tried different paths, paths I'm not so proud of and paths that just didn't work out. I'm happy now but still keep a 'image' in my head of what I should or what I want to reach and I spend my time pursuing that imagine.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Umm, there is billions of pieces of evidence that proves evolution is fact.

It can't be proven that Apollonius of Tyana was the son of God either, but he claimed he was and so did his followers. Jesus fits the "hero" formula that thousands of people before him and after him fit. He's just another myth, a bed time story.

Yes, of course. To you he is. Apollonius is Jesus half brother and they are both playing poker in heaven waiting for something good to happen. The story of Jesus, to you, is all just a little story taken from a coloring book. Listen, I'm not trying to make you accept this. So don't get too excited. What I am saying is that neither you and neither do I have any physical evidence to prove what is real and what is not real. If it were so, why then are we discussing? The simple fact that you and I will not come into agreement will prove just that. Or is it because you believe that I am an idiot and you are not? And yes evolution, according to your statements, is an illusion. Listen, I don't know what atheist do in the desert. They just come back and bring in a whole bunch of fossils and based on the evidence assume that it proves evolution. Have you seen this evidence? Have you studied it? Like you said, you have to lick it, taste it, feel it and manipulate it in order to prove it. Evolution theorists cannot come to that because they cannot restart the whole process of evolution again.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Ok...

Proof as interpreted by an outsider would require empirics, usually objective.

Things like mysticism, aliens, divinity and so on can not be proven objectively and rarely empirically. Certainly I can go to a cold-reader and have my fortune told, if it's accurate I may be convinced, and assert that psychics are real. However, in reality it is just cold-reading, the illusion must have worked to convince me, but none-the-less it is still an illusion. Psychics are poor, they slip up way too often. But they identify with the desire imbued in us as children for mysticism. So, mathematically speaking, at least some people will believe that the readings are accurate. Once they commit themselves to believing in the readings they are prone to believe blatantly wrong readings.

An example of how flawed we are is love. Love at first sight, which is lust ontological to a series of chemical reactions within the brain, fades over time as the norepinephrine, testosterone and/or estrogen surges become more tolerated. At this point we see beyond our infactuation and begin to realize people aren't always who we think they are.

Beliefs are the same way, once we believe in something it's like love at first sight, we become blinded by it, we fail to see the evidence stacking up against it. This is especially true if it's a result of personal experience. Now, experience is subjective, things like psychosis are very common, there are many illusions as well, false memories and so on. The human condition is that of flawed awareness, we only see what we are looking for, wether it actually exists or not. There are two realities, the external reality which obeys the laws of nature and the internal reality which is ontologically subjective and doesn't seem to obey any laws in the sense that it's subjective.

So basically, in order to prove something, I mean to really prove it beyond reasonable doubt, you have to be able to see it, hold it, lick it and manipulate it. Then you have to be able to pass it around to others so they can do the same. That is proof. Asking me to disprove a personal subjective experience or a shady historical account is asking me to disprove something that has never really been proven to begin with. It's disproven simply by that fact, that it can not be proven.

You mentioned certain things that deal with psychology. First of all,
psychology is not considered science simply because most of it is theory
and can not be proven. Psychology is a way to explain and analyze human
behavior but it does not guide us to real physical evidence. This
applies to our topic. Regardless, we still use psychology as an
objective explanation to excuse certain issues that we can't explain
(i.e. spiritual experiences). So in this case, I would have to conclude
that your interpretation on this topic is partly subjective.

However, on the topic of love there is a way to prove that love is real.
Love, as misinterpreted by many, is not a physical attraction. The
chemical reactions that cause a love-at-first-sight sensation is due to
a different form of attraction, mainly physical. A married couple goes
through aganozing situations. They learn to understand, they learn to
analyze and to communicate with each other. Ultimately, regardless of
their differences, changes in character, moods, and behavior, they
understand what love is. Of course, not many are able to succesfully
complete this process so they resolve to divorce because as you say,
"people aren't always who we think they are." Sort of like, "not having
faith in each other".

But that was only an example you made. I could give you an example of a
different way of looking at faith. Put this way, you are seeing the cup
"half-empty" while I see it "half-full".

I am currently an undergraduate. I am working full-time and attending
community college part-time. It's difficult for me. I am 22 years old,
living on my own and supporting myself. It's hard to say if I'll ever
become a filmmaker. I seem to have good prospects, but the chances are
very odd and it's very likely that I will never make a big budget film.
See, this is where faith comes to play. It's not an illusion that I
see. No one is reading the Tarot and predicting my future. No one has
analyzed my life and have come to the point of reading it accurately.
The odds are against me and time seems to be running out. So why don't
I stop? Because I have faith. Faith that I will survive these
circumstances, or faith that something good will come of it maybe for
myself or for my children (that I might someday have).

This reminds me of Abraham. I guess in your perspective you would say
that it was an illusion that called him out of the Land of Ur into an
unknown land. We could never know, just as you could never know that my
uncle died a week before christmas or that I haven't returned my
mother's call in the last two months. These are very humanly things.
The stuff that life is made out of. We don't lick everything we
believe, taste it or see it all. There are things that are known to us,
both physical and mental. Were we there when Queen Elizabeth defeated
the Spanish Armada? Were the evolution theorists there when life
spawned out these bacterial organisms? To this point, evolution has not
been proven. Their theories change over periods of time because new
advances in technology have offered different ideas, because new
evidence leads them to do so or because they just want to change it.
Many people believe in many different things. You could be an atheist
but have a distinct idea of atheism as opposed to another atheist. Or
an agnostic, or a deist, or muslim, a hindu, a christian, a jew or a serial killer.
Pick and choose who you wanna kill, pick and choose what you want to
believe in. The same with you. It's all a system, an idea, a belief
that you have proven something wrong simply because it is not proven.
In order to diprove something you need tangible and physical evidence
that it will not work just as it is if you want to prove something. The same with Jesus. You could never prove that he is not the Son of God because you have no physical and tangible evidence to do so. We're both little grasshoppers in this world.

Hinny

Pride doesn't have anything to do with it.

Life comes from within your heart and desire.

I know I was born and I know that I'll die, the in between is mine.

Yeah, that sums it all up.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

You mentioned certain things that deal with psychology. First of all,
psychology is not considered science simply because most of it is theory
and can not be proven.

This shows how little you know of psychology.