Cafferty File: McCain supported invading Iraq, opposes Russia's advances on Georgia

CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
edited August 2008 in A Moving Train
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/14/mccain-condemns-russia-supports-iraq-invasion/

Make sure to tell Jack how you feel about this.

The ultimate hypocrisy: supporting the invasion of Iraq but opposing the invasion of Georgia.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/14/mccain-condemns-russia-supports-iraq-invasion/

    Make sure to tell Jack how you feel about this.

    The ultimate hypocrisy: supporting the invasion of Iraq but opposing the invasion of Georgia.

    Well that's the old do as we say and not as we do mentality that plagues DC.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I dunno ... Should McCain go on record as supporting the German invasion of Poland in 1939, too? I mean, we have to be consistent and all that.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    I dunno ... Should McCain go on record as supporting the German invasion of Poland in 1939, too? I mean, we have to be consistent and all that.

    No but he comes off as a hypocrite when the whole world knows that he was all gung-ho for going into Iraq.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    I dont get it, should mccain support the invasion of Georgia?
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    spyguy wrote:
    I dont get it, should mccain support the invasion of Georgia?


    No he should keep his mouth shut. Any US politicians who supported/supports the war in Iraq has no moral standing to even comment on this event.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    No he should keep his mouth shut. Any US politicians who supported/supports the war in Iraq has no moral standing to even comment on this event.

    well many of those politicians saw Iraq as a threat and moreso, saw Iraq become more of a threat after the invasion, thus supporting staying there. I see no problem with calling out Russia on this.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    spyguy wrote:
    well many of those politicians saw Iraq as a threat and moreso, saw Iraq become more of a threat after the invasion, thus supporting staying there. I see no problem with calling out Russia on this.

    Come on. You can't possibly believe that anyone in Washington saw Iraq as a threat. They saw it as an opportunity to expand our influence in the region. They took 9/11 and used it to fuel the fires of war. They did exactly what Russia is doing right now. Russia took the Georgian attacks on South Osseatia and used it as justification to invade Georgia to increase their influence in the region. Not saying it's right but they are just playing by the rules our government established.

    I personally see no problem with criticizing Russia but when it's done by someone who is just as guilty as Putin then I tend to call it bullshit.

    Even if what you say is true, that many in Washington saw Iraq as a threat, then it may just be that Moscow sees Georgia as a threat. So why shouldn't it be ok for them to pre-emptively deal with a potential threat as we did.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    Come on. You can't possibly believe that anyone in Washington saw Iraq as a threat. They saw it as an opportunity to expand our influence in the region. They took 9/11 and used it to fuel the fires of war. They did exactly what Russia is doing right now. Russia took the Georgian attacks on South Osseatia and used it as justification to invade Georgia to increase their influence in the region. Not saying it's right but they are just playing by the rules our government established.

    I personally see no problem with criticizing Russia but when it's done by someone who is just as guilty as Putin then I tend to call it bullshit.

    regardless of what we did, calling out Russia for invading another country and fire bombing civilian towns, is the right thing to do. we cant and shouldnt just stay by and say nothing.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    spyguy wrote:
    regardless of what we did, calling out Russia for invading another country and fire bombing civilian towns, is the right thing to do. we cant and shouldnt just stay by and say nothing.

    Why can't we just stand by and say nothing? Why can't we just say that this is an issue between Russia and Georgia. If they so wish we would be glad to help broker a cease-fire and a deal to end hostilities. Why de we have to threaten Russia for it's actions but ignore the fact that Georgia initiated the hostilities. It's high time that we stop sticking our noses in everyone's business.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • spyguy wrote:
    well many of those politicians saw Iraq as a threat and moreso, saw Iraq become more of a threat after the invasion, thus supporting staying there. I see no problem with calling out Russia on this.

    If Iraq was a threat to the USA, then Georgia was a threat to Russia.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • mammasan wrote:
    It's high time that we stop sticking our noses in everyone's business.

    Couldn't agree more. I love how Bush and co immediately had something to say about Russia's actions.

    NO BUSH! You don't have shit to say. You said your piece and you lost the world's respect in the process.

    Now it's high time someone with some sense says:

    Russia might be invading Georgia for oil or territory or whatever, but we might as well remain mute on that subject. Little said is easily mended. If Russia's actions start to present a threat to the United States, we can deal with that.


    All Russia has done is spank Georgia and peace out. Compared to what we've done in Iraq, this is nothing!!!
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    Why can't we just stand by and say nothing? Why can't we just say that this is an issue between Russia and Georgia. If they so wish we would be glad to help broker a cease-fire and a deal to end hostilities. Why de we have to threaten Russia for it's actions but ignore the fact that Georgia initiated the hostilities. It's high time that we stop sticking our noses in everyone's business.

    just my opinion. I respect yours but disagree. and the threats you speak of and not anything remotely resembling military action (just to be clear). the threats we are speaking of are about certain nations NATO acceptance and diminishing Russia's strength on the world stage. I'm fine with that too. if they go unchecked whats to stop them from bringing back the their old bad habits of nation grabbing.
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    spyguy wrote:
    regardless of what we did, calling out Russia for invading another country and fire bombing civilian towns, is the right thing to do. we cant and shouldnt just stay by and say nothing.

    you DO know that Georgia INVADED and MURDERED thousands of CIVILLIANS in South Osseatia right? didnt we villify Saddam for "bombing his own people"? so let me get this straight, if iraq invades say kuwait.... or kurdish villages in iraq... they are monsters that need to be stopped. we can go to war with them, overthrow their govenment, and occupy their land for "100 years", But if Georgia does the same thing, russia has no right to go to war with them right?
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    spyguy wrote:
    just my opinion. I respect yours but disagree. and the threats you speak of and not anything remotely resembling military action (just to be clear). the threats we are speaking of are about certain nations NATO acceptance and diminishing Russia's strength on the world stage. I'm fine with that too. if they go unchecked whats to stop them from bringing back the their old bad habits of nation grabbing.

    I have a question for you. Why is it any of our business what amount of presence Russia has on the world stage? Russia poses no threat to our security and that is all that matters. Russia can gobble up Georgia, Chechnya, and many other former satelite states and they still would not pose a threat to us.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Maybe I'm missing something, but are the two situations exactly the same?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    know1 wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something, but are the two situations exactly the same?



    yep...they are both about oil.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    know1 wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something, but are the two situations exactly the same?
    well, I don't remember who it was specifically, but I heard a professor the other day speaking about how the Russia-Georgia situation is quite similar to the USA-Kosovo situation in Yugoslavia.
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    I have a question for you. Why is it any of our business what amount of presence Russia has on the world stage? Russia poses no threat to our security and that is all that matters. Russia can gobble up Georgia, Chechnya, and many other former satelite states and they still would not pose a threat to us.

    then maybe take Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Uzbekistan,...the list goes on as you know.

    is it likely? no. has it happened in the past?

    secondly, why should we only act unless there is a direct threat to us? many people feel we should send troops to darfur. should we? they are no threat to us.
  • anothercloneanotherclone Posts: 1,688
    My husband pointed out some irony today. I'm not sure if it's true, but he said it seemed like the US was faster sending "aid" to Georgia than they were to New Orleans during Katrina.
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    robbie wrote:
    you DO know that Georgia INVADED and MURDERED thousands of CIVILLIANS in South Osseatia right?

    you do know that south osseatia is part of Georgia. right? how could Georgia invade its own country?
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    spyguy wrote:
    you do know that south osseatia is part of Georgia. right? how could Georgia invade its own country?


    1989 - Demands for more autonomy in the South Ossetia region lead to violent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians.

    1990-91 – South Ossetia declares its intentions to secede, leading to more clashes.

    1991 – The Soviet Union collapses.

    1992 – South Ossetians vote in favour of independence in an unrecognised referendum. Hundreds die in sporadic violence, which continues until June when Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders meet to sign an armistice and agree the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force.

    November 1993 - South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.

    November 1996 - South Ossetia elects its first president
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    December 2001 - South Ossetia elects wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity as president in unrecognised elections.

    2002 – Kokoity asks Moscow to recognise the republic's independence and absorb it into Russia.

    2003 – The Georgian president, Eduard Shevardnadze, is toppled in the rose revolution.

    2004 - Mikhail Saakashvili wins Georgian presidential election and declares his intentions to bring breakaway regions of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Ajaria back into the fold.

    2006 - South Ossetians vote overwhelmingly in favour of independence from Tbilisi in an unrecognised referendum. In a simultaneous referendum, the region's minority ethnic Georgians vote to stay with Tbilisi.

    October 2007 - Talks hosted by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe between Georgia and South Ossetia break down.

    March 2008 - South Ossetia asks the world to recognise its independence from Georgia, following the west's support for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

    March 2008 - Georgia's bid to join Nato prompts Russia's parliament to urge the Kremlin to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

    April 2008 - South Ossetia rejects a Georgian power-sharing deal and insists on full independence.

    August 2008 - Fighting breaks out between Georgian and separatist South Ossetian forces
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    I understand the region is fucked up...but as of today SO is part of Georgia. but international community (which includes the US) has to do what it can to try and stop the invasion and get the sides to sit down and talk.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    spyguy wrote:
    I understand the region is fucked up...but as of today SO is part of Georgia. but international community (which includes the US) has to do what it can to try and stop the invasion and get the sides to sit down and talk.

    I agree that the international community should try to get these two sides to talk, even the US. My problem is that people from this administration are standing there on their moral pedal stool telling Russia that they can't invade a sovereign nation. We are they to tell Russia that.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    _outlaw wrote:
    well, I don't remember who it was specifically, but I heard a professor the other day speaking about how the Russia-Georgia situation is quite similar to the USA-Kosovo situation in Yugoslavia.

    So it's not the same as the US & Iraq?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    I agree that the international community should try to get these two sides to talk, even the US. My problem is that people from this administration are standing there on their moral pedal stool telling Russia that they can't invade a sovereign nation. We are they to tell Russia that.

    so many US politicians are hypocritical assholes, I know. I still have no problem with them speaking up about the invasion. if they, or americans like you and me, want to throw a little shit back at them, thats fine with me too. as long as Russia (or Georgia or whoever) gets checked im good.
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    mammasan wrote:
    I agree that the international community should try to get these two sides to talk, even the US. My problem is that people from this administration are standing there on their moral pedal stool telling Russia that they can't invade a sovereign nation. We are they to tell Russia that.

    but you did say in a previous post that we should keep our fucking mouth shut....stay out of the problem completely....let them settle it. (I'm paraphrasing)

    here you are agree we should get them to talk. ??
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    spyguy wrote:
    I understand the region is fucked up...but as of today SO is part of Georgia. but international community (which includes the US) has to do what it can to try and stop the invasion and get the sides to sit down and talk.



    sit down and talk? you sound like Obama.....
  • spyguyspyguy Posts: 613
    robbie wrote:
    sit down and talk? you sound like Obama.....

    whats your solution? war?
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    robbie wrote:
    sit down and talk? you sound like Obama.....
    :rolleyes:
    So you don't agree that the international community (which, like it or not, does include the US), should try to get these two sides to talk?
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