The people in office right now are war criminals. They are murderers and should be tried and punished to the full extent of the law.
That said, what they are doing isnt new or odd. And it isnt a Bush Cabal that runs things.
What is going on right now under Bush is an extention of what has gone on in America since 1619, when jamestown was founded and even before that, since 1492 and columbus orchestrated this whole thing.
All presidents have tried to extend american power and hegemony. ALL PRESIDENTS. Democrat and Republican.
All presidents have agreed with the current paradigm and agree that america should expand and engage in imperialist actions.
Name a president that hasnt? Clinton agreed. Clinton was just as oil hungry, murder hungry and power hungry as Bush is.
So to answer the original question, the rationale for Iraq was the rationale for all other interventions. For Oil, and imperial ambitions. To spread capitalism around the globe. To gain more land and money.
To think anything else about the endeavor is to engage in fairy tale weaving.
This will never end. Even a Democratic president will agree that this war SHOULD be fought in some capacity. And even the Democrats feel getting oil is good, and even Democrats feel that spreading capitalism around the globe is a good thing.
The only remedy is to abolish the entire system, to bring the whole thing to a halt and tear it down. And to put in its place something more humane.
yea, what he/she said.
except i must say president lincoln is a bad ass.
out of em all, lincoln was/is the best one.
and that rosevelt outfit had some dignity.
but yes columbus started it all.
i think columbus is a fuckin a-hole.
id love to see the next president be an indian chief.
all wearin his head dress feathers thingy.
that'd be pritty fuckin ok to my notion.
south-american indians were destroyed by spain.
just like they did here with columbus.
it hasnt stoped yet.
That's my motivation for acting. That is the motivation for the vast majority of intellectually honest people. When people act of their own volition it is usually in a self-interested way.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
No thats more than cool, but im trying to get down to the nitty gritty a little. The question posed is why did the war start? i know there's ubercool (just to push the nazi thing a little ) people in the us, but im talking about the america that has an effect outside of its borders, and thats got to be subject to collective responsibility so whatever actions are taken, i say its taken by america, not by an american administration, by gwb, haliburton, but by the collective usa that is supposedly free, votes in its government and therefore is subject to collective responsibility.
And i think that what Roland says is 99% intuitive all the time but the premise he is working on at the moment ignores any possibility that we are dependant on oil because there are those with a vested interest in us being so, who therefore do not acknowledge/allow new technologies to be mass perfected. (apologies for not talking to Roland directly but im on something else at the minute)
So for this argument america is collectively responsible for its actions: E or D?
I'd still say E. Other. Because I don't think all the reasons why the war was started have become apparent yet. And I'm quite sure that history will show that Europe and Saudi Arabia and a whole bunch of other countries involvements will be revealed eventually. Personally I think that we will see that the war was started by behind the scenes power brokers who used the current American administration and therefore it's people as the tool to further their own agendas.
The people in office right now are war criminals. They are murderers and should be tried and punished to the full extent of the law.
That said, what they are doing isnt new or odd. And it isnt a Bush Cabal that runs things.
What is going on right now under Bush is an extention of what has gone on in America since 1619, when jamestown was founded and even before that, since 1492 and columbus orchestrated this whole thing.
All presidents have tried to extend american power and hegemony. ALL PRESIDENTS. Democrat and Republican.
All presidents have agreed with the current paradigm and agree that america should expand and engage in imperialist actions.
Name a president that hasnt? Clinton agreed. Clinton was just as oil hungry, murder hungry and power hungry as Bush is.
So to answer the original question, the rationale for Iraq was the rationale for all other interventions. For Oil, and imperial ambitions. To spread capitalism around the globe. To gain more land and money.
To think anything else about the endeavor is to engage in fairy tale weaving.
This will never end. Even a Democratic president will agree that this war SHOULD be fought in some capacity. And even the Democrats feel getting oil is good, and even Democrats feel that spreading capitalism around the globe is a good thing.
The only remedy is to abolish the entire system, to bring the whole thing to a halt and tear it down. And to put in its place something more humane.
ive said it for years.
shut the goverment down.
this is like rebooting a computer system.
perhaps even globaly.
unite the globe as one, rather than seperation.
if ppl all quit goin to work for a week, this globe of ppl would halt.
the human goverment axis would screach to that halt.
this might be the only way to take what is ours back.
famous words, we the people for the people.
that hasnt really been the case.
we, as in the globe of human-beings call ourselves civilized.
we are far from this concept.
power, greed, murder, destroy, conquer, lie, cheat, and steal.
rape and molest the earth and each other.
quite sick.
its been done since we were not even an up-right walking being.
neanderthal,cromagnon, we are still that.
our genes sing that same old song.
were only out of touch more so with our earth than they were.
and thats cause of, alot of it is, the easy way out.
and our thinking process increased on the inventing process.
and many other reasons.
evolution isnt always the best way.
or it is but its an uphill battle.
again, i use the word battle.
what a negative word.
What do you think was americas' motivation for starting this last war in Iraq?
A. War on terror
B. Threat of WMD
C. Freedom/Welfare of the Iraqi people
D. Totally in its own selfish interest
E. Other ( please give brief explanation)
D.
I am reading Chomsky "understanding power" since my last holiday and still,
so this/ D. has become my conclusion.
...not that Europe or even Germany is any better, but we had blown it up the last 1000 years, so the last hundred years have been and is today only the US interest ruling the world with WAR and the military machine...
...and all due to
D. period.
there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
I'd still say E. Other. Because I don't think all the reasons why the war was started have become apparent yet. And I'm quite sure that history will show that Europe and Saudi Arabia and a whole bunch of other countries involvements will be revealed eventually. Personally I think that we will see that the war was started by behind the scenes power brokers who used the current American administration and therefore it's people as the tool to further their own agendas.
Thats interesting, but i cant see what Europe gained out of it, apart from Britain, who have made a nice cosy nest in the bunghole. If the Euro thing thats coming out is true then i can only see a loss.
That's my motivation for acting. That is the motivation for the vast majority of intellectually honest people. When people act of their own volition it is usually in a self-interested way.
Your honesty would have been cool, spoilt by the lame justification.
I'm rubber you're glue.
although i would like to add the distinction of 'the american government'...and not simply 'americans' b/c a GREAT many of us were dead-set against this war from the get-go.
a, b and c were simply handy little catch-phrases to try and hoodwink the american public into buying into it. sadly, it seemed to have worked a good long while for many, all that flag-waving seems to do that for a lot, why i do not know.
Your honesty would have been cool, spoilt by the lame justification.
I'm rubber you're glue.
Boing
Stick
Sorry, kid, I'm not understanding you. What just stuck to me? That I act in a self-interested way? I already recognized that. If you don't have the self-awareness to realize that you do as well, that is your issue, not mine.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Sorry, kid, I'm not understanding you. What just stuck to me? That I act in a self-interested way? I already recognized that. If you don't have the self-awareness to realize that you do as well, that is your issue, not mine.
So everyone who says they don't act in a selfish manner is just not self aware?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The key words being "I don't believe". What do you base this belief on?
Life. People do what makes them happy. When someone helps someone, they aren't subjugating their life for someone, as altruism suggests. They are doing something for someone perhaps because of the feeling they get from helping others, perhaps from their belief that their god will reward them in the next life, perhaps because they don't want to appear selfish. There are many reasons people act out of self-interest in a way which those who believe in altruism would perceive as being altruistic.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Thats interesting, but i cant see what Europe gained out of it, apart from Britain, who have made a nice cosy nest in the bunghole. If the Euro thing thats coming out is true then i can only see a loss.
I think that whatever gains are made will not be seen or possibly even known about by the general world population. I'm talking gains made by the European elite. Gains made by the British elite. Gains made by the American elite and probably even tiny little Australia's elite. Traditionally, historically, money and power people don't reveal how or when they make money or wrest power. But rest assured they will have been motivated by both and they will have recieved both. Whether or not the common man ever knows about it remains to be seen.
Life. People do what makes them happy. When someone helps someone, they aren't subjugating their life for someone, as altruism suggests. They are doing something for someone perhaps because of the feeling they get from helping others, perhaps from their belief that their god will reward them in the next life, perhaps because they don't want to appear selfish. There are many reasons people act out of self-interest in a way which those who believe in altruism would perceive as being altruistic.
Just as the first example that springs to mind....What about carers jeff? Those people that care for the sick and the dying even though it is the last thing they want to do? Even though it doesn't make them happy. Even though there will be no "reward" for them. What are they getting out of it? Other than the fact that they know that no one else will do it? And that they care enough about someone elses needs over their own to stay and do the job. There are plenty of things in this life that don't make people happy, that they'd be more than happy not to do, but they find themselves doing it anyway, because it's the right thing to do. I guess I'm not really understanding what you are saying here, but if you are suggesting that people only do things because of what they can get out of it, then I would suggest that you've been spending too much time around the wrong people.
I think it is a bit of all of the above, and probably much more stuff beneath the surface. When they say it's a war on terror or for the good of the Iraqi people, part of them fully believes that, even while another part is salivating over their own selfish interests. Therefore , they feel at peace and even honourable. It's the script that they tell themselves over and over, when they can't deal with their own truth. People are only aware of their conscious motivations. And people deny their ugly motivations and make them go unconscious, so that they can be at peace with themselves. Unfortunately for them, but great for us, is that those of us who are perceptive see the unconscious motivations that reflect all over the place. We can see realistically. We have a vested interest in seeing things realistically, while they have a vested interest in denying their own ugliness and flaws, even to themselves. It's par for the course of normal human denial. We all do this. The WMD part, well most humans are controlled by fear to different degrees, so it is definitely a valid variable as well. If they were honestly concerned about WMDs on one hand, while also heinously milking the fear of the populations on the other, I would not be at all surprised.
they rationalize...rational lies
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Life. People do what makes them happy. When someone helps someone, they aren't subjugating their life for someone, as altruism suggests. They are doing something for someone perhaps because of the feeling they get from helping others, perhaps from their belief that their god will reward them in the next life, perhaps because they don't want to appear selfish. There are many reasons people act out of self-interest in a way which those who believe in altruism would perceive as being altruistic.
Altruism is about putting the concerns of others above one's self. When you refer to selfishly doing things for others, for one's own self-interests, you are not referring to altruism, but rather a facade of altruism. The fact remains that altruism is the opposite of being selfish.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Sorry, kid, I'm not understanding you. What just stuck to me? That I act in a self-interested way? I already recognized that. If you don't have the self-awareness to realize that you do as well, that is your issue, not mine.
If you dont have the discipline to realise your own faults and either accept or change, instead of justifying by projecting them onto everyone else whats the point?
I have my faults, but i regularly do a few things for others that give me no pleasure or good feelings, in fact they stop me enjoying the time im doing them. they make me tired. I do them because someone/thing seems to need me at the time. And there are MANY greater people than I.
As for intellectualism, i would swap that for wisdom every day of the week.
I think that whatever gains are made will not be seen or possibly even known about by the general world population. I'm talking gains made by the European elite. Gains made by the British elite. Gains made by the American elite and probably even tiny little Australia's elite. Traditionally, historically, money and power people don't reveal how or when they make money or wrest power. But rest assured they will have been motivated by both and they will have recieved both. Whether or not the common man ever knows about it remains to be seen.
Thats just conspiracy theory isnt it?
You've inspired a new thread in me!
Edit: no i couldnt find the words for that thread maybe later.
Anyway , i get what you're saying, cronyism on a world wide scale as opposed to solely in the us. This works probably better actually. The hilarious thing about it is the cronyism i read on here and other places concerning the whole thing, from people who aren't anywhere near even being cronies, tragically funny sycophants
This is the best answer.
The question asked was, What do you think was americas' motivation for starting this last war in Iraq?
America is it's people. America's people were motivated for this war. The war administration needed it. The war president needed the motivation of the american people to get congress to comply. They were motivated by what they watched on TV.
The media were motivated, because, War is the number 1 ratings benefactor of all time. Now that things have changed, it is still the war that brings home the bacon for all the major networks. It was never a matter of for or against, it was a matter of when and how much. We're still there.
This is the best answer.
The question asked was, What do you think was americas' motivation for starting this last war in Iraq?
America is it's people. America's people were motivated for this war. The war administration needed it. The war president needed the motivation of the american people to get congress to comply. They were motivated by what they watched on TV.
The media were motivated, because, War is the number 1 ratings benefactor of all time. Now that things have changed, it is still the war that brings home the bacon for all the major networks. It was never a matter of for or against, it was a matter of when and how much. We're still there.
Q: Could you be a more clear? I'm not sure of what you're saying.
A: In a capitalistic society, major media networks will never shy away from war. In this scope, in America, historically, it comes in trends, and it invariably favors those with clout in media.
Q: Bush doesn't have clout in media. Not that I know of, anyway.
A: Those with clout in media can be anyone, really. The invariablity of which I speak has to do with those who can wage war. War is the bargaining tool. Most of the politics we see today in media is overseen exactly the same way that pro wrestling is.
This is the best answer.
The question asked was, What do you think was americas' motivation for starting this last war in Iraq?
America is it's people. America's people were motivated for this war. The war administration needed it. The war president needed the motivation of the american people to get congress to comply. They were motivated by what they watched on TV.
The media were motivated, because, War is the number 1 ratings benefactor of all time. Now that things have changed, it is still the war that brings home the bacon for all the major networks. It was never a matter of for or against, it was a matter of when and how much. We're still there.
Comments
yea, what he/she said.
except i must say president lincoln is a bad ass.
out of em all, lincoln was/is the best one.
and that rosevelt outfit had some dignity.
but yes columbus started it all.
i think columbus is a fuckin a-hole.
id love to see the next president be an indian chief.
all wearin his head dress feathers thingy.
that'd be pritty fuckin ok to my notion.
south-american indians were destroyed by spain.
just like they did here with columbus.
it hasnt stoped yet.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
That's my motivation for acting. That is the motivation for the vast majority of intellectually honest people. When people act of their own volition it is usually in a self-interested way.
I'd still say E. Other. Because I don't think all the reasons why the war was started have become apparent yet. And I'm quite sure that history will show that Europe and Saudi Arabia and a whole bunch of other countries involvements will be revealed eventually. Personally I think that we will see that the war was started by behind the scenes power brokers who used the current American administration and therefore it's people as the tool to further their own agendas.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
ive said it for years.
shut the goverment down.
this is like rebooting a computer system.
perhaps even globaly.
unite the globe as one, rather than seperation.
if ppl all quit goin to work for a week, this globe of ppl would halt.
the human goverment axis would screach to that halt.
this might be the only way to take what is ours back.
famous words, we the people for the people.
that hasnt really been the case.
we, as in the globe of human-beings call ourselves civilized.
we are far from this concept.
power, greed, murder, destroy, conquer, lie, cheat, and steal.
rape and molest the earth and each other.
quite sick.
its been done since we were not even an up-right walking being.
neanderthal,cromagnon, we are still that.
our genes sing that same old song.
were only out of touch more so with our earth than they were.
and thats cause of, alot of it is, the easy way out.
and our thinking process increased on the inventing process.
and many other reasons.
evolution isnt always the best way.
or it is but its an uphill battle.
again, i use the word battle.
what a negative word.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
D.
I am reading Chomsky "understanding power" since my last holiday and still,
so this/ D. has become my conclusion.
...not that Europe or even Germany is any better, but we had blown it up the last 1000 years, so the last hundred years have been and is today only the US interest ruling the world with WAR and the military machine...
...and all due to
D. period.
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
Thats interesting, but i cant see what Europe gained out of it, apart from Britain, who have made a nice cosy nest in the bunghole. If the Euro thing thats coming out is true then i can only see a loss.
Your honesty would have been cool, spoilt by the lame justification.
I'm rubber you're glue.
Boing
Stick
although i would like to add the distinction of 'the american government'...and not simply 'americans' b/c a GREAT many of us were dead-set against this war from the get-go.
a, b and c were simply handy little catch-phrases to try and hoodwink the american public into buying into it. sadly, it seemed to have worked a good long while for many, all that flag-waving seems to do that for a lot, why i do not know.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
for those americans who wanted it
Sorry, kid, I'm not understanding you. What just stuck to me? That I act in a self-interested way? I already recognized that. If you don't have the self-awareness to realize that you do as well, that is your issue, not mine.
So everyone who says they don't act in a selfish manner is just not self aware?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yes. Except those who are coerced, of course.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I guess so. I thought that statement was seriously messed up!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Sorry Jeff, but I think you're way off here.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Collin...that was f-ing hilarious!
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I don't believe true altruism exists. So perhaps you're right. Or perhaps you fit was I was saying above.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Life. People do what makes them happy. When someone helps someone, they aren't subjugating their life for someone, as altruism suggests. They are doing something for someone perhaps because of the feeling they get from helping others, perhaps from their belief that their god will reward them in the next life, perhaps because they don't want to appear selfish. There are many reasons people act out of self-interest in a way which those who believe in altruism would perceive as being altruistic.
I think that whatever gains are made will not be seen or possibly even known about by the general world population. I'm talking gains made by the European elite. Gains made by the British elite. Gains made by the American elite and probably even tiny little Australia's elite. Traditionally, historically, money and power people don't reveal how or when they make money or wrest power. But rest assured they will have been motivated by both and they will have recieved both. Whether or not the common man ever knows about it remains to be seen.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Just as the first example that springs to mind....What about carers jeff? Those people that care for the sick and the dying even though it is the last thing they want to do? Even though it doesn't make them happy. Even though there will be no "reward" for them. What are they getting out of it? Other than the fact that they know that no one else will do it? And that they care enough about someone elses needs over their own to stay and do the job. There are plenty of things in this life that don't make people happy, that they'd be more than happy not to do, but they find themselves doing it anyway, because it's the right thing to do. I guess I'm not really understanding what you are saying here, but if you are suggesting that people only do things because of what they can get out of it, then I would suggest that you've been spending too much time around the wrong people.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
they rationalize...rational lies
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
If you dont have the discipline to realise your own faults and either accept or change, instead of justifying by projecting them onto everyone else whats the point?
I have my faults, but i regularly do a few things for others that give me no pleasure or good feelings, in fact they stop me enjoying the time im doing them. they make me tired. I do them because someone/thing seems to need me at the time. And there are MANY greater people than I.
As for intellectualism, i would swap that for wisdom every day of the week.
Thats just conspiracy theory isnt it?
You've inspired a new thread in me!
Edit: no i couldnt find the words for that thread maybe later.
Anyway , i get what you're saying, cronyism on a world wide scale as opposed to solely in the us. This works probably better actually. The hilarious thing about it is the cronyism i read on here and other places concerning the whole thing, from people who aren't anywhere near even being cronies, tragically funny sycophants
This is the best answer.
The question asked was, What do you think was americas' motivation for starting this last war in Iraq?
America is it's people. America's people were motivated for this war. The war administration needed it. The war president needed the motivation of the american people to get congress to comply. They were motivated by what they watched on TV.
The media were motivated, because, War is the number 1 ratings benefactor of all time. Now that things have changed, it is still the war that brings home the bacon for all the major networks. It was never a matter of for or against, it was a matter of when and how much. We're still there.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Q: Could you be a more clear? I'm not sure of what you're saying.
A: In a capitalistic society, major media networks will never shy away from war. In this scope, in America, historically, it comes in trends, and it invariably favors those with clout in media.
Q: Bush doesn't have clout in media. Not that I know of, anyway.
A: Those with clout in media can be anyone, really. The invariablity of which I speak has to do with those who can wage war. War is the bargaining tool. Most of the politics we see today in media is overseen exactly the same way that pro wrestling is.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
will you stop kissing that guys ass?!