Bush and Iraq

macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
did he actually say .. A self-Governing Iraq is a 'noble goal'

THEY WERE SELF GOVERNED BEFORE BUSH ORDERED THE REMOVAL OF THEIR LEADERS!

this is not a debate.

IRAQ WAS SOVERIGN...if you dont count the food for oil program WHICH THEY ABIDED BY....
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  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    macgyver06 wrote:
    did he actually say .. A self-Governing Iraq is a 'noble goal'

    THEY WERE SELF GOVERNED BEFORE BUSH ORDERED THE REMOVAL OF THEIR LEADERS!

    this is not a debate.

    IRAQ WAS SOVERIGN...if you dont count the food for oil program WHICH THEY ABIDED BY....

    Not that I'm defending the president, but Iraq was not self-governing. Saddam was a dictator and the people had no say in who they wanted to run the country.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Umm...not that I enjoy agreeing with George Bush, but a self-governing Iraq is a noble goal. And to pretend that Iraq, under the rule of a vicious dictator kept in power by fear and coersion, was "self-governing"....not really seeing where you're coming from there.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    they were soverign!

    and for the record.. Iraq had elections to... anyone can say hey...they werent fair...but the truth is people were free and i do know for a fact that they did vote for the invasion of kuwait and the war with iran before that.


    but i think your missing the statement.

    THEY WERE SELF-GOVERNED BEFORE!

    they were a country, regardless of your opinions of saddam.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    and you mention fear...please

    every country has this
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    and you mention fear...please

    every country has this

    In the context of Iraq, and the context of brutal dictators paranoid to a point of extreme violence, your very post proves you wrong.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    Umm...not that I enjoy agreeing with George Bush, but a self-governing Iraq is a noble goal. And to pretend that Iraq, under the rule of a vicious dictator kept in power by fear and coersion, was "self-governing"....not really seeing where you're coming from there.


    oh and compared to other so called ''dictators'' he's not that vicious...and for the record Saddam never held prison camps.... our presidents have!
  • darkcrowdarkcrow Posts: 1,102
    macgyver06 wrote:
    and you mention fear...please

    every country has this

    so true. it is the tool of every political party. "if you dont vote for us something bad will happen"

    one that comes to mind was during the midterms and the republicans had that one with the ticking and osama.

    in my country our politicians love to use illegal immigrants to scare us.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    macgyver06 wrote:
    they were soverign!

    and for the record.. Iraq had elections to... anyone can say hey...they werent fair...but the truth is people were free and i do know for a fact that they did vote for the invasion of kuwait and the war with iran before that.


    but i think your missing the statement.

    THEY WERE SELF-GOVERNED BEFORE!

    they were a country, regardless of your opinions of saddam.

    They where a soverign nation but that does not equate to a self governing nation. The peopleof Iraqhad no say in government and just becausethey had the option to go to the polls and vote for one candidate because no other candidate was allowed to run does not make them a self governing nation. Look Bush is an ass wipe but he is correct in saying that Iraq becoming a self governing nation is a noble cause I just disagree with the way he decided to go about doing it.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    but again I am straying the subject

    IRAQ WAS SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!!!

    FACT!
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    oh and compared to other so called ''dictators'' he's not that vicious...and for the record Saddam never held prison camps.... our presidents have!

    So Iraq was sovereign because our president is bad? Gotcha.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    but again I am straying the subject

    IRAQ WAS SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!!!

    FACT!

    Hehe...on what do you base that fact?
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    macgyver06 wrote:
    but again I am straying the subject

    IRAQ WAS SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!!!

    FACT!

    How were they self governed?
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    darkcrow wrote:
    so true. it is the tool of every political party. "if you dont vote for us something bad will happen"

    one that comes to mind was during the midterms and the republicans had that one with the ticking and osama.

    in my country our politicians love to use illegal immigrants to scare us.


    lol...bush gave a ''French'' (who he told us to hate for some reason??) company

    what was it like a zillion dollars for bird-flu vaccinations...which no longer exist...and also the private stock holders of sofeui pasteur remain private under contesting.

    this guy is going to prison..no doubt..its insane!
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    macgyver06 wrote:
    but again I am straying the subject

    IRAQ WAS SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!!!

    FACT!

    YOU OBVIOUSLY UNDERSTAND "SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!" DIFFERENTLY THAN MANY/MOST OF US.

    FACT!
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    macgyver06 wrote:
    but again I am straying the subject

    IRAQ WAS SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!!!

    FACT!

    Why is it a fact because you said it was. Self governing means that the citizens of that country decide on who will run their government. They have options on who to elect and are not forced into supporting just one individual or one party. Saddam used torture, murder, and god knows what other vile method to supress any oppostion to his rule. Their was no choice in Iraq it was Saddam or a prison cell in Abu Graib or worse a dicth in the desert with a hole in your head. Soverignty does not equate freedom or selfgoverning.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    jeffbr wrote:
    YOU OBVIOUSLY UNDERSTAND "SELF-GOVERNED!!!!!!!" DIFFERENTLY THAN MANY/MOST OF US.

    FACT!

    with all respect...

    this is not opinion you must understand that IRAQ was within the entity of themeselves, SELF GOVERNED.

    they were soverign. unstable apparently, no War planes and the absense of an established military.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    theres no...

    i think self governed means this

    NO

    look it up..

    when you govern yourself...you govern yourself
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    theres no...

    i think self governed means this

    NO

    look it up..

    when you govern yourself...you govern yourself

    Did you govern yourself to a few drinks this morning?

    Governing yourself means that your will and your actions are linked. Far too often in Iraq, the will of the people was manifested in opposite actions.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    mammasan wrote:
    Why is it a fact because you said it was. Self governing means that the citizens of that country decide on who will run their government. They have options on who to elect and are not forced into supporting just one individual or one party. Saddam used torture, murder, and god knows what other vile method to supress any oppostion to his rule. Their was no choice in Iraq it was Saddam or a prison cell in Abu Graib or worse a dicth in the desert with a hole in your head. Soverignty does not equate freedom or selfgoverning.

    No. Self Governing means thh country is Soverign.

    you govern yourself...meaning...if you are a part of a country, no matter what the rule is at the time...you are a part of the collective 'yourself'
    also, iraq technically wasn't a dictatorship, based on the fact

    THEY HAD ELECTIONS!
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    THEY HAD ELECTIONS!

    Incidentally, how do you feel about the 2000/2004 US elections?
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    Did you govern yourself to a few drinks this morning?

    Governing yourself means that your will and your actions are linked. Far too often in Iraq, the will of the people was manifested in opposite actions.

    hehe...maybe like a 50/50 kinda thing...

    where does this happen
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    how can i argue with you guys if your giving me half-truths and wrong information.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    macgyver06 wrote:
    No. Self Governing means thh country is Soverign.

    you govern yourself...meaning...if you are a part of a country, no matter what the rule is at the time...you are a part of the collective 'yourself'
    also, iraq technically wasn't a dictatorship, based on the fact

    THEY HAD ELECTIONS!

    Self Government

    The object of the republican form of government and of the principles that are essential to that form, is to enable a people to govern themselves to the most practicable extent possible. Not every nation of people are capable of self-government, and many expected the experiment of the Founding Fathers to fail. But it did not fail, and the experiment proved that an educated and enlightened people are capable of self-government. The question remains, however, the extent to which government by the people themselves may be extended. - Thomas Jefferson

    None of what Jefferson stated applies to the peopleof Iraq under Saddam.

    Do you consider Fidel Castro a dictator? What about Augusto Pinochet, Francisco Franco, Hitler? All of these individuals held election while in power but no one else was allowed to oppose them.Holding elections does not mean you are not a dictator when the results of the elections are already predetermined to favor those in power before a vote is even cast.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    apparently i have to instruct that there is an actual definition for this...because people have the lost the ability to determine fact/opinion reality/fake

    lf-gov·erned /ˌsɛlfˈgʌvərnd, ˈsɛlf-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[self-guhv-ernd, self-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –adjective
    1. governed by itself or having self-government, as a state or community; independent.
    2. self-regulating; self-determining.
    3. exercising self-restraint or self-control.
    [Origin: 1700–10]

    —Related forms
    self-gov·ern·ing, adjective

    —Synonyms 1. autonomous.
    —Antonyms 1. dependent.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    where does this happen

    It happens throughout this world, inversely relative to the enforcement of acceptable behavior by armed thugs. The United States, much of Europe, Australia, many South American nations, Canada......the list of places wherein people's actions are direct manifestations of their will is quite long.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    mammasan wrote:
    Self Government

    The object of the republican form of government and of the principles that are essential to that form, is to enable a people to govern themselves to the most practicable extent possible. Not every nation of people are capable of self-government, and many expected the experiment of the Founding Fathers to fail. But it did not fail, and the experiment proved that an educated and enlightened people are capable of self-government. The question remains, however, the extent to which government by the people themselves may be extended. - Thomas Jefferson

    None of what Jefferson stated applies to the peopleof Iraq under Saddam.

    Do you consider Fidel Castro a dictator? What about Augusto Pinochet, Francisco Franco, Hitler? All of these individuals held election while in power but no one else was allowed to oppose them.Holding elections does not mean you are not a dictator when the results of the elections are already predetermined to favor those in power before a vote is even cast.


    im trying to avoid opinions in my posts.. i won't state how i feel about castro...nor do i think it has anything to do with the middle east
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    It happens throughout this world, inversely relative to the enforcement of acceptable behavior by armed thugs. The United States, much of Europe, Australia, many South American nations, Canada......the list of places wherein people's actions are direct manifestations of their will is quite long.

    im not sure what this is
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    also, I don't clearly know who you all are defending.


    howeve i can understand you don't like saddam... either do I.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    im not sure what this is

    Let me give you an example. You live in Orlando, right? Florida? Part of the US? Assuming that's correct....

    Let's say that you really hate George Bush. I mean, really hate him and you want to remove him from office. Now, let's say you go onto a public website and say something like "George Bush is a filthy douchebag, and let's remove his ass from office right now!" And now let's say that a bunch of people agree with you and take action via their representatives to remove him.

    See what this is? You're putting your will into action. There's no disconnect between your will (a desire to remove George Bush from office) and your actions (public activism to do so).

    Now, under your argument, people in Iraq were free to do this. Unfortunately, Saddam Hussein would disagree with you. The trail of the dead potential activists he left behind, killed for nothing more than their opposition to his rule, proves that, as well as the fear held by the living there of facing similar reprisals. The will of the Iraqi people was not linked to their actions.
  • macgyver06 wrote:
    also, I don't clearly know who you all are defending.

    I'm defending the rights of the Iraqi people to choose their course without fear of violent reprisal from others. Because of that, I reject both the previous leadership there as well as the current situation. I just happen to agree with George Bush on the original statement that a self-governing Iraq is a noble goal. Of course, George Bush has done little to accomplish that goal, but the goal is noble, nonetheless.
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