Dark Knight

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  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    That had to do with how Batman is viewed by the citizens of Gotham and his own take on what needed to be done to help the city compared to trying to bring forth some message to the how to handle the problem.

    And as OutOfBreath mentioned, I totally think people like to attribute their own personal message/agenda to a movie, song or something compared to it being the directed message of the writer/director, etc.
    _outlaw wrote:
    it's interesting, that's what I actually argued, but what my sister responded with was how come at the end of the movie, we hear Gordon talk about how Batman is our "watchful protector", our "guardian"...

    indeed, we ARE led to think he is right and to love him...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    That had to do with how Batman is viewed by the citizens of Gotham and his own take on what needed to be done to help the city compared to trying to bring forth some message to the how to handle the problem.

    And as OutOfBreath mentioned, I totally think people like to attribute their own personal message/agenda to a movie, song or something compared to it being the directed message of the writer/director, etc.
    what do you think is the directed message of the writer/director?
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    _outlaw wrote:
    it's interesting, that's what I actually argued, but what my sister responded with was how come at the end of the movie, we hear Gordon talk about how Batman is our "watchful protector", our "guardian"...

    indeed, we ARE led to think he is right and to love him...
    A "watchful protector" may not be nice or even right. Gordon doesnt say the words in awe, but rather ruefully, if my memory serves me right.
    Batman himself and Gordon sees Batman as a necessary evil, or at least an evil to check other evils in a fucked-up beyond repair city.

    Even so, that last line there doesnt defend labelling the movie as a "government propaganda tool". It is a rather brainy movie given it's niche as a superhero flick, and movies that makes us think and question about things like surveillance, and what good is a fascist superhero anyway, would make poor propaganda. Propaganda is more easily hidden in brainless movies, and where focus is diverted away, from the deemed propaganda. Here, the surveillance is adamantly opposed by the honourable old man Fox, which often seem to act like Wayne/Batman's conscience along with Albert.

    Other movies may well be criticized for leading to cheering for questionable motives, but I feel singling out this one is really unfair, since it facilitates questioning.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    A "watchful protector" may not be nice or even right. Gordon doesnt say the words in awe, but rather ruefully, if my memory serves me right.
    Batman himself and Gordon sees Batman as a necessary evil, or at least an evil to check other evils in a fucked-up beyond repair city.
    another point I brought up myself. however, can't it be argued that Bush is a necessary evil? That he's only evil to keep the other evils in check?
    Even so, that last line there doesnt defend labelling the movie as a "government propaganda tool". It is a rather brainy movie given it's niche as a superhero flick, and movies that makes us think and question about things like surveillance, and what good is a fascist superhero anyway, would make poor propaganda. Propaganda is more easily hidden in brainless movies, and where focus is diverted away, from the deemed propaganda. Here, the surveillance is adamantly opposed by the honourable old man Fox, which often seem to act like Wayne/Batman's conscience along with Albert.
    He agrees that "just this once" in a case of emergency (such as the excuse of the war on terror), he'll allow it... and Fox ended up using it...
    Other movies may well be criticized for leading to cheering for questionable motives, but I feel singling out this one is really unfair, since it facilitates questioning.
    singling it out? who's singling this movie out?
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    OutOfBreath just posted something similar to my belief of the film.

    Here's a perfect example of how something is taken out of context - The whole sonar cell phone thing. Batman wasn't using it to suspect or listen to the citizens of Gotham as if they were guilty of something, he used it to find a person by location. People comparing it to our government trying to listen to conversations, etc is extremely out of context and not the same thing at all.

    To me, it was very clear that Batman, Alfred and Gordon weren't please with the things Batman had to due in order to get the Joker. In many respects, the Joker proved his point 100 times over that if carry out wrong-doing to catch your enemy, you become in some respects just as guilty as they are. People want to equate that to politics or foreign policy, etc, but in reality that's just a basic philosphy in life and people who believe certain things, apply a generic tenet to that belief.... ie they see or hear what they're looking for. So if someone thinks Bush is a necessary evil or the government spies on the citizens, they look for examples in media for that, even if it's a far stretch to apply.

    Lastly, the reason the movie is called the dark knight, to me simply states this example. The White Knight failed and was corrupted, but the people of Gotham never will know, where as Batman took the rap for somethings and acted out of line, and therefore was the dark knight - a necessary evil.
    _outlaw wrote:
    what do you think is the directed message of the writer/director?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Here's a perfect example of how something is taken out of context - The whole sonar cell phone thing. Batman wasn't using it to suspect or listen to the citizens of Gotham as if they were guilty of something, he used it to find a person by location. People comparing it to our government trying to listen to conversations, etc is extremely out of context and not the same thing at all.
    I think there was a scene where Batman was standing on a roof earlier in the film and you just hear a bunch of different conversations going on... I don't really know if that was the surveillance thing or not. However, I do think your take on it is off as well because why would Fox be so against it if all it was is using cell phones to track down the Joker?
    To me, it was very clear that Batman, Alfred and Gordon weren't please with the things Batman had to due in order to get the Joker. In many respects, the Joker proved his point 100 times over that if carry out wrong-doing to catch your enemy, you become in some respects just as guilty as they are. People want to equate that to politics or foreign policy, etc, but in reality that's just a basic philosphy in life and people who believe certain things, apply a generic tenet to that belief.... ie they see or hear what they're looking for. So if someone thinks Bush is a necessary evil or the government spies on the citizens, they look for examples in media for that, even if it's a far stretch to apply.
    I agree, it is a basic philosophy. but, especially during this day and age, there were just so many similarities to the movie and real life events that it is hard to look it over (even though that while I was watching the movie, that's exactly what I did :p)
    Lastly, the reason the movie is called the dark knight, to me simply states this example. The White Knight failed and was corrupted, but the people of Gotham never will know, where as Batman took the rap for somethings and acted out of line, and therefore was the dark knight - a necessary evil.
    so you don't do things the right way - rather, you use torture, surveillance, etc to do it? sorry, but I think a "necessary evil" is still, ultimately, evil... and it's a bit of an oxymoron.
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    _outlaw wrote:
    another point I brought up myself. however, can't it be argued that Bush is a necessary evil? That he's only evil to keep the other evils in check?
    anything can be deemed a "necessary evil". Just what constitutes a necessary evil depends on the person making the statement. I didn't say I remotely agree (or that people watching are led to believe) that a Batman figure is a necessary evil, but that Batman himself and to some extent gordon believes that. That analogy you used there, is really stretching it.
    He agrees that "just this once" in a case of emergency (such as the excuse of the war on terror), he'll allow it... and Fox ended up using it...
    I defer to Five's post for this
    singling it out? who's singling this movie out?
    the original poster, remember? :) As for leninology's criticism, I really dont feel that this movie belongs with the other two. this movie is dark, and it is very clear how dark several of batman's sides are. Even if a scene or line can be taken out of context, the overall jist is not about favouring strongmen or allowing surveillance. It shows to the full all of the problems that are tied to it.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    anything can be deemed a "necessary evil". Just what constitutes a necessary evil depends on the person making the statement. I didn't say I remotely agree (or that people watching are led to believe) that a Batman figure is a necessary evil, but that Batman himself and to some extent gordon believes that. That analogy you used there, is really stretching it.
    like I said before, I argue the same thing you do, but all these arguments I've heard from several other people are intriguing... I think when you take the overall movie, however, it's VERY easy to see where they are coming from:
    the original poster, remember? :) As for leninology's criticism, I really dont feel that this movie belongs with the other two. this movie is dark, and it is very clear how dark several of batman's sides are. Even if a scene or line can be taken out of context, the overall jist is not about favouring strongmen or allowing surveillance.
    it includes being a "necessary evil" and using whatever means are your disposal to stop the evil terrorist... including surveillance and torture...
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    _outlaw wrote:
    I don't think people are reading too much into it... it really is pretty obvious...I mean look at how Batman has to "break his rules" when he deals with "terrorists." He tortures the Joker, and even uses wiretapping because it's deemed "necessary" just this one time when the city (or world) is in trouble from "terrorism"... it's allowed to be used "just this once".... I don't know, it's all pretty fishy to me... .

    I don't see the director/writers as advocating or showing support for such tactics. Seems to me it was clear the writers/director made sure to illustrate the confliction that Batman and Alfred felt towards these tactics.

    There was a brief debate where Alfred clearly expressed being against it and made a few comments that posed questions regarding the integrity, wisdom and patriotism of it all.

    And Batman was clearly conflicted as much as he was angry and desperate to get an upper-hand on The Joker.

    I perceived it as they (the writers/directors) presenting an example and illustration, which also presented an oposing view and in some ways I felt like they were asking the audience "if this was the right thing to do".

    I certainly didn't perceive it as an advocacy driven agenda.
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    What NMyTree said. :)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    NMyTree wrote:
    I don't see the director/writers as advocating or showing support for such tactics. Seems to me it was clear the writers/director made sure to illustrate the confliction that Batman and Alfred felt towards these tactics.

    There was a brief debate where Alfred clearly expressed being against it and made a few comments that posed questions regarding the integrity of it all.
    on the contrary, I remember Alfred pushing batman and saying that he has to use these tactics, and that he even "burned the forest down" to stop the bandit.. i'm not saying he supports these tactics, but in times of "emergency" he certainly did...
    And Batman was clearly conflicted as much as he was angry and desperate to get an upper-hand on The Joker.
    yeah, he was.
    I perceived it as they (the writers/directors) presenting an example and illustration, which also presented an oposing view and in some ways I felt like they were asking the audience "if this was the right thing to do".
    Yeah, I remember a Michael Caine quote I read somewhere this is along the lines of "Superman is the way America sees itself, Batman is the way the world sees America"...
    I certainly didn't perceive it as an advocacy driven agenda.
    neither did I, it was a good fucking movie.

    but I still think people's arguments can make sense, which is why I brought them up... such as the surveillance and torture thing...
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    I'd also like to point out that the directors/writers in telling the story and outcome; chose to portray those tactics as having for the most part; failed and frought with severe ramifications and results.

    It pretty much blew up in their faces. No pun intended.

    So they did not portay the result/outcome of those tactics in a positive manner.

    Which is important when evaluating or analyzing the intentions or message of the producers/writers/director of this movie.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Exactly. They, nor do I, condone extremist measures or agendas.

    To me the film presented in more of a moralistic dilema compared to a statement of advocating such things.
    NMyTree wrote:
    I don't see the director/writers as advocating or showing support for such tactics. Seems to me it was clear the writers/director made sure to illustrate the confliction that Batman and Alfred felt towards these tactics.

    There was a brief debate where Alfred clearly expressed being against it and made a few comments that posed questions regarding the integrity, wisdom and patriotism of it all.

    And Batman was clearly conflicted as much as he was angry and desperate to get an upper-hand on The Joker.

    I perceived it as they (the writers/directors) presenting an example and illustration, which also presented an oposing view and in some ways I felt like they were asking the audience "if this was the right thing to do".

    I certainly didn't perceive it as an advocacy driven agenda.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    _outlaw wrote:
    on the contrary, I remember Alfred pushing batman and saying that he has to use these tactics, and that he even "burned the forest down" to stop the bandit.. i'm not saying he supports these tactics, but in times of "emergency" he certainly did......

    Hmmmmm....it's possible I misunderstood the dialogue, there. I'll have to watch the movie again.

    I thought...perceived Alfred's comments as being opposed to it. Maybe I'm not remembering that exchange or sequence, correctly.

    I'll have to see it again and then comment on that. But without a doubt Alfred was initially against it.
  • Sludge Factory
    Sludge Factory Posts: 976
    NMyTree wrote:
    Hmmmmm....it's possible I misunderstood the dialogue, there. I'll have to watch the movie again.

    I thought...perceived Alfred's comments as being opposed to it. Maybe I'm not remembering that exchange or sequence, correctly.

    I'll have to see it again and then comment on that. But without a doubt Alfred was initially against it.


    Oh NO! You'll just "have" to watch the movie again. :D:D

    I think maybe you were just trying to find a reason to view the movie another time, eh? :)
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Sludge Factory wrote:
    Oh NO! You'll just "have" to watch the movie again. :D:D

    I think maybe you were just trying to find a reason to view the movie another time, eh? :)

    Well, I already had plans to go see it again, anyway:D

    No doubt I'll also buy the DVD and Blu-Ray, when they are released:)

    Oddly, I'm not usually a big fan of superhero movies. But I really admire Christian Bale as an actor and I really enjoyed these last two Batman movies.
  • Sludge Factory
    Sludge Factory Posts: 976
    NMyTree wrote:
    Well, I already had plans to go see it again, anyway:D

    No doubt I'll also buy the DVD and Blu-Ray, when they are released:)

    Oddly, I'm not usually a big fan of superhero movies. But I really admire Christian Bale as an actor and I really enjoyed these last two Batman movies.

    Haha, yeah I hear ya. Though I'll probably just stick with buying the Blu-Ray.
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    TUPELO, Mississippi (Reuters) - Oscar-winning U.S. actor Morgan Freeman was hospitalized in serious condition on Monday after the car he was driving careened off a rural highway and rolled several times, authorities said

    Freeman, 71, was airlifted late on Sunday night to a Memphis, Tennessee, hospital, about 100 miles from the accident scene, which is near a home he keeps in Charleston, Mississippi.

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080804/n_entertain_reuters/entertainment_freeman_accident_col

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