in and out of characters? sounds like a bad excuse, like my dog at my homework. Let's say that he was truefull about going in and out of character, he shouldn't even mention it because it at least sounds like he's making excuses. He should just have said, "I'm sorry, very sorry and there is no excuse for what I said."
I completely agree. If he's "justifying" the unjustifiable, then he's not owning it. Therefore he's unconsciously racist.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
well I'm white and I do. I don't use it in a hateful way though. I'll answer a phone call from a white friend by saying "what's up nigga" if I feel so inclinded. I also remember doing karaoke one time and saying the n-word like 10 times (it was a snoop dogg song) and there were black guys at the bar. they didn't care
using it like Michael Richards did is wrong. you can't use it as an intentional insult towards a black person. just like you can't call a gay person a "fag" or a mentally challenged person a "retard."
well I'm white and I do. I don't use it in a hateful way though. I'll answer a phone call from a white friend by saying "what's up nigga" if I feel so inclinded. I also remember doing karaoke one time and saying the n-word like 10 times (it was a snoop dogg song) and there were black guys at the bar. they didn't care
using it like Michael Richards did is wrong. you can't use it as an intentional insult towards a black person. just like you can't call a gay person a "fag" or a mentally challenged person a "retard."
I am hesitant to respond because it could be a whole other thread, but you bring up an interesting point. The use of the N-word by a white person is NEVER taken in context. If you use it and the wrong person hears it you are in some trouble.
I use it sometimes when I am trying to make a point--typically to point out racism--i.e. putting the word in a racist's mouth. I have also mouthed some Dr. Dre lyrics in social settings.
Using it like Kramer did, no context, just wrong.
But the word is so much the poster child for racism against blacks that it becomes too significant in the following two ways:
1. If you use it, you are a racist. No room for the context in which it was used. It's the magic word that can severely alter your life.
2. People can say the most unbelieveably racist shit without using the word and get away with it. If you call them out, you are called "PC".
Just because someone does not say the word does not mean they are not talking in a racist manner.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Are you saying that racism does not exist currently in America?
Are you saying because there are other factors that discrimination therefore is a non-point? Or do you agree that discrimination is real and does happen currently?
Of course I'm not saying racism does not exist. I'm saying that because there are racists whites does not mean that ALL white people owe the black race some free pass to be racist themselves.
I'm saying that other factors contributed to Katrina..not discrimination against blacks. I agree it is real and does happen but I don't think that overall it happened in Katrina. Sure there were some instances from individuals in certain circumstances but I don't think FEMA or any governmental agency were sitting around thinking "oh there black anyway what does it matter".
Do you think that whites can't be discrimnated against just because we're white?
What Richards said was wrong and I'm not condoning his comments. However, what I did notice in this thread is the idea its okay for black comics or blacks entertainers etc to make racist comments about whites simply because they are black. And what about black people calling each other "nigga" all the time? If they don't want us calling them that...why in the world would they call each other that?
What Richards said was wrong and I'm not condoning his comments. However, what I did notice in this thread is the idea its okay for black comics or blacks entertainers etc to make racist comments about whites simply because they are black. And what about black people calling each other "nigga" all the time? If they don't want us calling them that...why in the world would they call each other that?
First off, if you can't be funny without being racist, you are a piss poor comedian that should find another line of work. I think racism, when being used by anyone is shameful and that who ever uses it has a mind with the capacity of a peanut.
Secondly, even if the word nigga is widely used by black people, that does not automattically give someone the right to start using that word. Yes, there is a double standard. A black person can use the word nigga without any second thought, and a white person can't. But really, knowing the history of the word, and how it was used as a term of hate and ignorance, anyone that has respect for himself and his fellow man, wouldn't use it.
Of course I'm not saying racism does not exist. I'm saying that because there are racists whites does not mean that ALL white people owe the black race some free pass to be racist themselves.
You said: "I even understand up until the civil rights movement that blacks were treated like substandard people but that isn't the case in today's society." In my understanding racism is treating someone in a substandard way and I see it happening all the time in today's society. I am not talking about owing anyone anything except exactly what is owed. For example, currently in the now, when a racist act occurs, there is accountability that cannot be glossed over. I understand if your opinion is about past events connecting with now and I accept your view. At the same time, my own personal focus is on exactly what takes place now, and that the person who acts in a racist manner in each moment owns it. Period. From a human (not colour) perspective.
I'm saying that other factors contributed to Katrina..not discrimination against blacks. I agree it is real and does happen but I don't think that overall it happened in Katrina. Sure there were some instances from individuals in certain circumstances but I don't think FEMA or any governmental agency were sitting around thinking "oh there black anyway what does it matter".
I hear what you are saying.
I don't personally know one way or another.
Do you think that whites can't be discrimnated against just because we're white?
When discrimination occurs, it is unaccapble. Period.
What Richards said was wrong and I'm not condoning his comments. However, what I did notice in this thread is the idea its okay for black comics or blacks entertainers etc to make racist comments about whites simply because they are black. And what about black people calling each other "nigga" all the time? If they don't want us calling them that...why in the world would they call each other that?
I understand your point and take no issue with it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You said: "I even understand up until the civil rights movement that blacks were treated like substandard people but that isn't the case in today's society." In my understanding racism is treating someone in a substandard way and I see it happening all the time in today's society. I am not talking about owing anyone anything except exactly what is owed. For example, currently in the now, when a racist act occurs, there is accountability that cannot be glossed over. I understand if your opinion is about past events connecting with now and I accept your view. At the same time, my own personal focus is on exactly what takes place now, and that the person who acts in a racist manner in each moment owns it. Period. From a human (not colour) perspective.
The difference from the 50's to now is that it was widely acceptable in the 50's to treat people that way. Its not now. If anything its completely the opposite. Now instead of "society" being okay with racist views as they were back then is that its more individualized. Society as a whole isn't treating black people the way they did back then.
he apologized, he's obviously very disturbed by his actions, he's sad, he feels like crap, he apologized over and over again, said he is going to try and fix obviiously whatever is insid ehim...
The difference from the 50's to now is that it was widely acceptable in the 50's to treat people that way. Its not now. If anything its completely the opposite. Now instead of "society" being okay with racist views as they were back then is that its more individualized. Society as a whole isn't treating black people the way they did back then.
In theory we in North America rationalize and get behind non-racism. However the problem of racism goes beyond our intellectual reasoning and our theories.. Therefore the problem of racism may not be an intellectual issue in North American except in terms of how to deal with the immature emotional nature many of us operate from. For example, the cab driver who drives by the African-American to pick up the white person is not making an intellectual, reasonable decision, but rather a decision made based on unconscious bias, prejudice and emotions such as fear. The rampant racism that continues to go on around us despite our intentions shows us there is much further to go yet.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
he apologized, he's obviously very disturbed by his actions, he's sad, he feels like crap, he apologized over and over again, said he is going to try and fix obviiously whatever is insid ehim...
what else more can a man do?
peace out my niggas.
Agreed. Basically, the man picked the wrong racial slur to use, and the wrong group to target. Had he gone off on a racist tirade about Hispanics, the whole thing probably would have already dropped off the radar, maybe after an initial outcry. This particular tirade will be much harder for people to forgive.
He should be forgiven. I believe him that he's not even racist, but clearly has an anger problem. I bet he would have railed on those people no matter what race they were, but since they were black it must have been easy to point them out with racial slurs. I'm sure it would have been the same for any other minority - or if they were in a predominantly black area and the hecklers were white he probably would have focused on their race as well. Sure what he did was wrong but his apology was sincere if I've ever seen a sincere apology. I feel bad for the guy and hope he can work out his rage and I hope people will forgive him and not remember him for this one mistake.
For sure, but its not going to happen. People are going to be crying for his blood for the next little while.
Damn....if only people gave a shit about what I say. His apology was so sincere that if I were famous I'd go on my own racial tirade just to take the focus off of him. I hope this bullshit media will just give him a break.
Note that I said "IF he is justifying the unjustifiable...then he's not owning it".
The facts do tend to be black and white, don't they?
What facts? The man may well be a total and utter racist, or he may have just used very poor judgment and made a really dumbass mistake.
Quit thinking like a Bible-thumper ... How do you know what this man's actual feelings on the issue are? "Unforgivable" ... Really? Seems extreme to me. He said some words. He didn't participate in a lynch mob.
What facts? The man may well be a total and utter racist, or he may have just used very poor judgment and made a really dumbass mistake.
A racist comment is a racist comment no matter why it's made.
It is a fact that IF someone justifies racist actions they are therefore not owning their behaviour. They are trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized....rationally. Therefore, WHEN/IF this is the case, they keep themselves unconscious of the racism. This IS black and white in my mind. I personally do not know in this case, because I did not see the apology.
Quit thinking like a Bible-thumper ... How do you know what this man's actual feelings on the issue are? "Unforgivable" ... Really? Seems extreme to me. He said some words. He didn't participate in a lynch mob.
Are you attibuting the use of the word "unforgivable" to me, somehow? You may be meaning "unjustifiable" which I did use. One cannot EFFECTIVELY logically justify something that does not have justification. (again, I said "if" )
You might want to check to where I said: "We are molded by our environmental stimulus, and if it's mostly generated by white people...well, there's some strong environmental bias we are internalizing...Since we all make mistakes, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. Michael Richards has called himself out. And for me, personally, if he is owning up to rather than defending his behaviour, that is the key. What more can a person do?"
Who's thinking like the bible-thumper?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
A racist comment is a racist comment no matter why it's made.
It is a fact that IF someone justifies racist actions they are therefore not owning their behaviour. They are trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized....rationally. Therefore, WHEN/IF this is the case, they keep themselves unconscious of the racism. This IS black and white in my mind. I personally do not know in this case, because I did not see the apology.
Are you attibuting the use of the word "unforgivable" to me, somehow? You may be meaning "unjustifiable" which I did use. One cannot EFFECTIVELY logically justify something that does not have justification. (again, I said "if" )
You might want to check to where I said: "We are molded by our environmental stimulus, and if it's mostly generated by white people...well, there's some strong environmental bias we are internalizing...Since we all make mistakes, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. Michael Richards has called himself out. And for me, personally, if he is owning up to rather than defending his behaviour, that is the key. What more can a person do?"
Who's thinking like the bible-thumper?
To answer your question, not me, at all. Moving on ...
As for your other comments, I can basically agree with your point about owning up vs. defending. Beyond that, though, I'm a bit lost. You're evoking logic here, which is fine, but your starting out from a lot of premises that I do not buy into, such as the premise that what Micheal Richards did completely lacks a rational justification. Does it, though? I loathe racism as much as the next product of a relatively free society, but I choose to define rationality a little bit differently. To me, a rational and non-racist mind could very well respond to hecklers in this way. Its also entirely possible that this man DOES harbour implicit racist attitudes (my personal view is that Mel Gibson does), and that the heckling brought them out in ugly view. If indeed that's the case, he should own up, not make excuses, and work on changing his attitudes.
I don't know if I am even making sense anymore. Aw well.
In theory we in North America rationalize and get behind non-racism. However the problem of racism goes beyond our intellectual reasoning and our theories.. Therefore the problem of racism may not be an intellectual issue in North American except in terms of how to deal with the immature emotional nature many of us operate from. For example, the cab driver who drives by the African-American to pick up the white person is not making an intellectual, reasonable decision, but rather a decision made based on unconscious bias, prejudice and emotions such as fear. The rampant racism that continues to go on around us despite our intentions shows us there is much further to go yet.
Yeah, that works in a lot of different ways though. The black guy cab driver might drive by the white guy to pick up the black guy. I'd suggest watching the movie Crash if you haven't seen it. I think its a great movie for this type of discussion.
I'd suggest watching the movie Crash if you haven't seen it. I think its a great movie for this type of discussion.
for sure ... This movie did a great job of depicting the complexities that surround race relations. Its more complicated than just blaming one group for everything.
"Kramer from Seinfeld outdoes Mel Gibson".... Don't agree---I think they are equally as bad.
Sugar tits!!! I am OFFENDED!!!!!!!!!!
I too thought that "outdoes" was an interesting choice of words. Sure, all racism is deemed bad by most people, but clearly there are more and less acceptable racial tirades in the U.S.
Comments
hell yeah ed, first round is on me.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
well I'm white and I do. I don't use it in a hateful way though. I'll answer a phone call from a white friend by saying "what's up nigga" if I feel so inclinded. I also remember doing karaoke one time and saying the n-word like 10 times (it was a snoop dogg song) and there were black guys at the bar. they didn't care
using it like Michael Richards did is wrong. you can't use it as an intentional insult towards a black person. just like you can't call a gay person a "fag" or a mentally challenged person a "retard."
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
I am hesitant to respond because it could be a whole other thread, but you bring up an interesting point. The use of the N-word by a white person is NEVER taken in context. If you use it and the wrong person hears it you are in some trouble.
I use it sometimes when I am trying to make a point--typically to point out racism--i.e. putting the word in a racist's mouth. I have also mouthed some Dr. Dre lyrics in social settings.
Using it like Kramer did, no context, just wrong.
But the word is so much the poster child for racism against blacks that it becomes too significant in the following two ways:
1. If you use it, you are a racist. No room for the context in which it was used. It's the magic word that can severely alter your life.
2. People can say the most unbelieveably racist shit without using the word and get away with it. If you call them out, you are called "PC".
Just because someone does not say the word does not mean they are not talking in a racist manner.
Of course I'm not saying racism does not exist. I'm saying that because there are racists whites does not mean that ALL white people owe the black race some free pass to be racist themselves.
I'm saying that other factors contributed to Katrina..not discrimination against blacks. I agree it is real and does happen but I don't think that overall it happened in Katrina. Sure there were some instances from individuals in certain circumstances but I don't think FEMA or any governmental agency were sitting around thinking "oh there black anyway what does it matter".
Do you think that whites can't be discrimnated against just because we're white?
What Richards said was wrong and I'm not condoning his comments. However, what I did notice in this thread is the idea its okay for black comics or blacks entertainers etc to make racist comments about whites simply because they are black. And what about black people calling each other "nigga" all the time? If they don't want us calling them that...why in the world would they call each other that?
...signed...the token black Pearl Jam fan.
FaceSpace
First off, if you can't be funny without being racist, you are a piss poor comedian that should find another line of work. I think racism, when being used by anyone is shameful and that who ever uses it has a mind with the capacity of a peanut.
Secondly, even if the word nigga is widely used by black people, that does not automattically give someone the right to start using that word. Yes, there is a double standard. A black person can use the word nigga without any second thought, and a white person can't. But really, knowing the history of the word, and how it was used as a term of hate and ignorance, anyone that has respect for himself and his fellow man, wouldn't use it.
I hear what you are saying.
I don't personally know one way or another.
When discrimination occurs, it is unaccapble. Period.
I understand your point and take no issue with it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
The difference from the 50's to now is that it was widely acceptable in the 50's to treat people that way. Its not now. If anything its completely the opposite. Now instead of "society" being okay with racist views as they were back then is that its more individualized. Society as a whole isn't treating black people the way they did back then.
what else more can a man do?
peace out my niggas.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Black and white thinking, pardon the expression ...
Agreed. Basically, the man picked the wrong racial slur to use, and the wrong group to target. Had he gone off on a racist tirade about Hispanics, the whole thing probably would have already dropped off the radar, maybe after an initial outcry. This particular tirade will be much harder for people to forgive.
He should have just called the heckler gay.
For sure, but its not going to happen. People are going to be crying for his blood for the next little while.
The facts do tend to be black and white, don't they?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What facts? The man may well be a total and utter racist, or he may have just used very poor judgment and made a really dumbass mistake.
Quit thinking like a Bible-thumper ... How do you know what this man's actual feelings on the issue are? "Unforgivable" ... Really? Seems extreme to me. He said some words. He didn't participate in a lynch mob.
It is a fact that IF someone justifies racist actions they are therefore not owning their behaviour. They are trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized....rationally. Therefore, WHEN/IF this is the case, they keep themselves unconscious of the racism. This IS black and white in my mind. I personally do not know in this case, because I did not see the apology.
Are you attibuting the use of the word "unforgivable" to me, somehow? You may be meaning "unjustifiable" which I did use. One cannot EFFECTIVELY logically justify something that does not have justification. (again, I said "if" )
You might want to check to where I said: "We are molded by our environmental stimulus, and if it's mostly generated by white people...well, there's some strong environmental bias we are internalizing...Since we all make mistakes, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. Michael Richards has called himself out. And for me, personally, if he is owning up to rather than defending his behaviour, that is the key. What more can a person do?"
Who's thinking like the bible-thumper?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
To answer your question, not me, at all. Moving on ...
As for your other comments, I can basically agree with your point about owning up vs. defending. Beyond that, though, I'm a bit lost. You're evoking logic here, which is fine, but your starting out from a lot of premises that I do not buy into, such as the premise that what Micheal Richards did completely lacks a rational justification. Does it, though? I loathe racism as much as the next product of a relatively free society, but I choose to define rationality a little bit differently. To me, a rational and non-racist mind could very well respond to hecklers in this way. Its also entirely possible that this man DOES harbour implicit racist attitudes (my personal view is that Mel Gibson does), and that the heckling brought them out in ugly view. If indeed that's the case, he should own up, not make excuses, and work on changing his attitudes.
I don't know if I am even making sense anymore. Aw well.
At risk of sounding like a total fucking dweeb, beating people's asses is not a good cure for ignorant attitudes.
Yeah, that works in a lot of different ways though. The black guy cab driver might drive by the white guy to pick up the black guy. I'd suggest watching the movie Crash if you haven't seen it. I think its a great movie for this type of discussion.
Sugar tits!!! I am OFFENDED!!!!!!!!!!
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
for sure ... This movie did a great job of depicting the complexities that surround race relations. Its more complicated than just blaming one group for everything.
I too thought that "outdoes" was an interesting choice of words. Sure, all racism is deemed bad by most people, but clearly there are more and less acceptable racial tirades in the U.S.
dude, you are such a dweeb
i agree with you though, just sayin' thats all.