Obama: Bush Senior “did an excellent job when it came to the Gulf War"

RolandTD20Kdrummer

MrSmith wrote:

what kind of revisionist history is this? no one would have cared if we rolled right on in to Baghdad. Indeed, most people thought we should have.

You really think people would get behind that?

I can't think of one person at the time that would think that would have been necessary, and would have supported it.

The battle was already won. The conflict was over. People would have freaked out just like they are doing now.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

MrSmith wrote:

wait wait wait... your whole argument is based solely on the fact that the ambassador basically said "we dont care about your petty squabbles" to Saddam? How in Gods name do you make the leap to say we were actively promoting Iraq invading Kuwait? IN WHAT WORLD IS THIS THE NEXT LOGICAL LEAP? How much conditioning does it require for this to make sense?

So you want me to believe Saddam had no idea anyone would notice invading Kuwait and moving on to Saudi Arabia, which collectivelly account for a massive percentage of the world's oil? Are you trying to convince me that because we said once that we didnt want to get involved, he would naturally assume no one would care about this? And you also expect me to believe that he wouldnt scream bloody murder about the US saying it was ok once we supposedly turn on him?

i think i like it better when you are posting links about ties between Columbine and Israel. That makes more sense than this shit.

I like how you tossed in moving on to Saudi Arabia....lol gmab...

If he had a false sense of specific non intervention...do the math.

yikes..

RolandTD20Kdrummer

my2hands wrote:

what a major ding that was on my boy rolands cred, man did he stretch with that nonsense...


if you ask him the whole world is run by a zionist plot to dominate the globe and everything that happens in the world is connected to that agenda and zionist manipulation :rolleyes:

your fantasy world is frightening at times...

It's pretty damn sad when you can't bring up a topic for discussion without getting labeleed an adamant supporter of every last word in it.

Talk about ruining open discussion and inserting hatred and animosity.

bravo!

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

thank you for helping make my point with the help of Mr Zinn...

even he says the cause of getting Iraq to withdraw from kuwait was could be considered "just". he follows that by saying perhaps war as a means to get them to withdraw is unjust. which of course no one cheers on war or thinks thats the only answer, especially not me.

my question to Zinn, and the others in this thread the past 2 days has been the same. how do you get Iraq to withdraw from kuwait? sanctions via the UN were put in place, diplomacy via the UN took place, a threat of war was put in place via the UN, and none of that worked. they were given ample time to withdraw under pressure form the world. so how do you get them to withdraw without using force?

The part about the 'means' (war) was my main point in posting it and I agree with him.

The US only intervenes when it suits their purposes and like the Chomsky piece said, they waited until the could get the maximum gain out of the situation, avoided diplomacy and all talks that could have de-escalated the situation and used this to their advantage. I'm not about to act like I support
those actions....not for one fucking second. Especially when the US stands by and watches people get massacred all over this world and does fuckall to stop it but when they have some advantage to gain they sell it up to the people and jump right in. Fuck that!

I'm just gonna sit back and wait to see which war you'll be on here defending next.

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

i agree...

but that never stopped a fucking tank :rolleyes:


sometimes people MUST stand up and fight.

Nope, peace stops tanks. People that believe in and spread peace stop tanks. Bombs and more tanks only ensures that more bombs and more tanks will be built to replace any of those tanks they may have momentarily stopped.

It's a perpetual cycle until people decide to stop it by accepting the way of peace over the way of war.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Oh but wait you wake up and one out of the blue no more than half a pico second later 150,000 troops pop up out of nowhere, and are inches away from attacking someone. You have 5 seconds to think or perish, and theres a big red button in front of you to press. What would you do????!!

lol..

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Speaking of stopping tanks. Superman?.... is that you'?

http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg


edit btw ...did I actually read the phrase "fuck ghandi" somewhere in this thread?

I've never heard anyone mutter those words before in my life.

Abookamongstthemany

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Speaking of stopping tanks. Superman?.... is that you'?

http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg

It was an amazing moment. If only we all possessed that kind of courage.

NMyTree

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Oh but wait you wake up and one out of the blue no more than half a pico second later 150,000 troops pop up out of nowhere, and are inches away from attacking someone. You have 5 seconds to think or perish, and theres a big red button in front of you to press. What would you do????!!

lol..

Depends, who's answering the phone at 3:00 AM and does he or she have a tasty snack at hand?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NMyTree wrote:

Depends, who's answering the phone at 3:00 AM and does he or she have a tasty snack at hand?

hahahaa.. actually no tasty snack....your teddy is missing....you can't find your slippers on a cold floor, and my2hands is jumping up and down on your chest screaming ATTACK!!! ATTACK!!! at the top of his lungs...

now it's down to two seconds...

tick tock... big red button is now bigger and closer than ever before




see? war is necessary!!!...

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Speaking of stopping tanks. Superman?.... is that you'?

http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg


edit btw ...did I actually read the phrase "fuck ghandi" somewhere in this thread?

I've never heard anyone mutter those words before in my life.

brave guy, but i dont remember it leading to the overthrow of the oppressive regime he was standing against.



and yeah you read right.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

MrSmith wrote:

brave guy, but i dont remember it leading to the overthrow of the oppressive regime he was standing against.



and yeah you read right.

well you know.... it takes more than a few people to make something great...yadda yadda..

I myself personally, upon encountering one of the more prominent international icons for peace, would not pull down my pants and proceed to take a shit on it.

but that's just me...lol

NMyTree

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

hahahaa.. actually no tasty snack....your teddy is missing....you can't find your slippers on a cold floor, and my2hands is jumping up and down on your chest screaming ATTACK!!! ATTACK!!! at the top of his lungs...

now it's down to two seconds...

tick tock... big red button is now bigger and closer than ever before




see? war is necessary!!!...

Before I answer..............

Is my2hands a male or female? You said "his" but could have been a generic term.

Furthermore, if in fact my2hands is a female; is she......you know......a hottie?:D:D

Many things to think about when someone is jumping on ones chest and screaming.:D

I could certainly think of better things to do than hit a red button or start a war.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NMyTree wrote:

Before I answer..............

Is my2hands a male or female? You said "his" but could have been a generic term.

Furthermore, if in fact my2hands is a female; is she......you know......a hottie?:D:D

Many things to think about when someone is jumping on ones chest and screaming.:D

I could certainly think of better things to do than hit a red button or start a war.

She's sexy and eager...and will get you a snack afterwards.

my2hands

wow, i think i need to stay out of this fucking place!

my2hands

i see you guys have not answered my question... and wont... but thats cool... feel free to call me a war monger and all that good stuff... thats cool with me... just remember, that some people believe violence is justified in VERY select times of defense or aid... and that not everyone subscribes to the doctrines of universal peace... so until all 6 billion people on this insane fucking planet come to realize the path to peace and practice it... then someone will have to intervene once in while for causes that arise in defense of tyrants and bad actions...


even howard fucking zinn said forcing iraq to withdraw from kuwait was a just cause...

for example, zinn questions[/] whether or not US intervention into WW2 was just... of course the entirety of WW2 was not just. just dont forget who started it. our invlovement was cleary just and had to heppen, regardless of the imperial outcome for the victors. it was soemthing the world had to rise against. to say that is not just is insane to me. i love zinn to death, and i did not experience the horros of ww2. and of course alot of things were way over the top and not needed, the bomb comign to mind for me and bombing of civilian cities and targets... but the threat posed HAD to be met with unbelievable force...

the moral to the story os that some causes are just... the reaction may be ugly, but sometimes things ahve to get ugly

angelica

my2hands wrote:

... so until all 6 billion people on this insane fucking planet come to realize the path to peace and practice it...

This is a fallacy... we needn't have a world of peace loving individuals in order to resolve problems.

Hoon

Actually non-violent techniques (satyagraha) were working against the Nazis in the east/southeast of Germany.

If you are really interested please read up on it. :::satyagraha:::

There is also info on what Gandhi had to say about WW2 you can find.

The only fault in action or nonaction was when people did not take a stand, thats was what made it ALL possible.

Even the worst of us are Human and most of us has a CONSCIENCE. If those in control will not feel then the followers soon will, and not continue to follow.

Its in the movie and in his writing, if you want to win, thats all we need to know. Lets go.

MrSmith wrote:

Ghandi was a man (in a certain situation in a certain time), not a god some of you make him out to be.

you think his tactics would have worked in Nazi Germany ? How did it work out in Bhurma, or Tianenmen Square? you are delirious.
Ghandi's 'weapon' is functional only against CONSCIENCE. If your oppressor has no conscience, nonviolent protest is virtually useless. There was no strong desire to hold on to India by the time Ghandi came around (due in no small part to various VIOLENT revolts, sabotage and terrorist attacks). The Indian colony simply wasnt "economically feasible".


so fuck Ghandi

Kann

angelica wrote:

This is a fallacy... we needn't have a world of peace loving individuals in order to resolve problems.

How is that a fallacy? If some people do not want/like peace they will create problems?

on subject : winning a war does not amount to kicking asses. You need to have a plan for after the war (WW2 is a great example), because you don't just finish off an army and leave. All Bush sr. did was dispose of a 3rd world country army, and create a very lousy after war climate which led to bombings, embargo... In my view Obama is at least twice wrong in what he says.

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

i see you guys have not answered my question... and wont... but thats cool... feel free to call me a war monger and all that good stuff... thats cool with me... just remember, that some people believe violence is justified in VERY select times of defense or aid... and that not everyone subscribes to the doctrines of universal peace... so until all 6 billion people on this insane fucking planet come to realize the path to peace and practice it... then someone will have to intervene once in while for causes that arise in defense of tyrants and bad actions...


even howard fucking zinn said forcing iraq to withdraw from kuwait was a just cause...

for example, zinn questions[/] whether or not US intervention into WW2 was just... of course the entirety of WW2 was not just. just dont forget who started it. our invlovement was cleary just and had to heppen, regardless of the imperial outcome for the victors. it was soemthing the world had to rise against. to say that is not just is insane to me. i love zinn to death, and i did not experience the horros of ww2. and of course alot of things were way over the top and not needed, the bomb comign to mind for me and bombing of civilian cities and targets... but the threat posed HAD to be met with unbelievable force...

the moral to the story os that some causes are just... the reaction may be ugly, but sometimes things ahve to get ugly

It is only your opinion that we HAVE or HAD to choose the course of action we chose. CHOOSE being the operative word. There's always a choice to be made. And there's always an opinion to be had...not just yours on the matter.
And I completely disagree with yours here and always have.


also Zinn said going to war with Iraq for the first gulf war was unjust