IDF caught on camera shooting blindfolded and handcuffed palestinina detainee...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

All you say is, "israel is guilty in this conflict, palestine is the victim. Palestine is offering a peace plan which puts all the blame and responsibility on israel". How exactly is this a vialbe solution to the conflict between two parties? Fact is, it is not, which is exactly why it only further escalates the problems and conflict rather than fix it. But just keep ignoring that fact and be part of the blame game, and see where it gets you... we're 50 yrs into the conflict.. it hasn't worked yet.

Uhhh....how bout just stop stealing land...

For some reason you just can't grasp that reality and what it entails can you?

FiveB247x

The reality you don't want to recognize is that the entire course of actions doesn't fix the problem. Palestine blames Israel, Israel blames Palestine. Each side says they other half have to make concessions to get peace... so where does that leave everything? Continuing down the same path won't create change, which is my point and many other posters point. You are more wrapped up in what the other half should be doing or pointing blame, compared to a realistic solution to the problem. Merely saying group x is wrong and the instagator doesn't fix the problem.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Uhhh....how bout just stop stealing land...

For some reason you just can't grasp that reality and what it entails can you?

cincybearcat

I wonder how long this is going to go on.

Is the discussion about peace in the region?

or, is it about attaching blame?

Blaming won't solve a thing. Like Five has said...they've tried it for 50 years, no results.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always got.

FiveB247x

It's very obvious, those who are blaming the other half, are more concerned with attaching blame in order to gain peace, where as many others who are trying to create a peace, are smart enough to recognize if you continue down the same path, things won't change.

cincybearcat wrote:

I wonder how long this is going to go on.

Is the discussion about peace in the region?

or, is it about attaching blame?

Blaming won't solve a thing. Like Five has said...they've tried it for 50 years, no results.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always got.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

The reality you don't want to recognize is that the entire course of actions doesn't fix the problem. Palestine blames Israel, Israel blames Palestine. Each side says they other half have to make concessions to get peace... so where does that leave everything? Continuing down the same path won't create change, which is my point and many other posters point. You are more wrapped up in what the other half should be doing or pointing blame, compared to a realistic solution to the problem. Merely saying group x is wrong and the instagator doesn't fix the problem.

and Israel is still taking land...50 years later...

hello.... stop stealing land.

remember that part?

cincybearcat

polaris wrote:

in this particular issue - there is no room for neutrality ... it's like the moving train - you have to look at everything that is put in front of you and pick a side ...

acknowledging each sides transgressions accomplishes nothing but allow the atrocities to continue ... focusing on suicide bombings serves only to distract from the fact that we've had an entire peoples oppressed for far too long ...

So, you're either with us or against us???? Where'd I hear that before?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

It's very obvious, those who are blaming the other half, are more concerned with attaching blame in order to gain peace, where as many others who are trying to create a peace, are smart enough to recognize if you continue down the same path, things won't change.

How bout stop stealing land that isn't yours...and perhaps give some back that has been taken ongoing over the past 50 years.!!??

hey...there's a positive change moving towards a solution

fuck me! Why did I think of that?!

cincybearcat

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How bout stop stealing land that isn't yours...and perhaps give some back that has been taken ongoing over the past 50 years.!!??

hey...there's a positive change moving towards a solution

fuck me! Why did I think of that?!

I believe you are correct in that is where the process should start...

FiveB247x

I've made it very clear that both sides need to make many adjustments to actions and policies. Once EACH SIDE does this or begins to do so, a peace plan can be worked out which benefit BOTH SIDES.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How bout stop stealing land that isn't yours...and perhaps give some back that has been taken ongoing over the past 50 years.!!??

hey...there's a positive change moving towards a solution

fuck me! Why did I think of that?!

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

I've made it very clear that both sides need to make many adjustments to actions and policies. Once EACH SIDE does this or begins to do so, a peace plan can be worked out which benefit BOTH SIDES.

And that starts with Israel. They are the ones stealing the land.

no brainer...

FiveB247x

And just as Israel should begin there, Palestine needs to stop their terror groups. Two way street here.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

And that starts with Israel. They are the ones stealing the land.

no brainer...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

And just as Israel should begin there, Palestine needs to stop their terror groups. Two way street here.

Hamas has basically said if Israel pulls out of the West bank it's a done deal. But you know Israel ....they want their land first and foremost....no mater what it involves.

To the point they are willing to build hundreds of armored checkpoints and huge apartheid walls, and deploy their military left right and center in order to attain this goal of ongoing state of land procurement from the Palestinians.

It's all about land, and having a place to live, and what is fair.

FiveB247x

Let me ask you a simple question. Let's say you are in impartial mediator in a conflict (any problem). What would your solution be if both parties were waiting for the other half to make the first step to a solution? Please put aside what you think is right or wrong in this issue. It's a stand-still. What is your solution to that connundrum?

Would it not be to tell both sides they need to facilitate steps to meet the other in the middle inorder to create the proper solution? Yet you sit here and claim it's ok for one side to blame the other cause they don't make the first move. Both sides say this in fact. This is obviously flawed rational and doesn't fix the problem or enable the process to a solution. All it does is entrench both sides and further the problem.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Hamas has basically said if Israel pulls out of the West bank it's a done deal. But you know Israel ....they want their land first and foremost....no mater what it involves.

To the point they are willing to build hundreds of armored checkpoints and huge apartheid walls, and deploy their military left right and center in order to attain this goal of ongoing state of land procurement from the Palestinians.

It's all about land, and having a place to live, and what is fair.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Let me ask you a simple question. Let's say you are in impartial mediator in a conflict (any problem). What would your solution be if both parties were waiting for the other half to make the first step to a solution? Please put aside what you think is right or wrong in this issue. It's a stand-still. What is your solution to that connundrum?

You said yourself you can't compare "any problem" to this though; it's a separate case entirely. Right?

FiveB247x

You didn't answer the question:

You are a mediator. You have two parties at a stallmate. Each side is waiting for the other half to make the first move to a sollution. With both sides not taking the first step, the conflict continues. How do you resolve this issue?

_outlaw wrote:

You said yourself you can't compare "any problem" to this though; it's a separate case entirely. Right?

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

You didn't answer the question:

You are a mediator. You have two parties at a stallmate. Each side is waiting for the other half to make the first move to a sollution. With both sides not taking the first step, the conflict continues. How do you resolve this issue?

I need more information about this scenario. You can't get some jackass off the street who has no idea what's going on in Israel/Palestine other than them being at a "stallmate" (when in reality Israel is killing off the Palestinians and stealing their land), and that there needs to be a solution. You need to understand what's actually been going on the past 80 years. Otherwise, it's an insult to the 1 million Palestinian refugees if you ignore what they've been through. It's an insult to the destruction of those 418 villages in 1948. It's an insult to the entire Palestinian people, and you know what, to the Israeli civilians who have been killed as well.

This situation needs to be understood completely. If some guy comes in to try to "resolve" the issue without knowing one force is occupying the other, etc, then nothing will be resolved.

FiveB247x

My scenario is based upon the generic principles of mediation, not specifically this conflict. So please answer the question without mentioning the Israel/Palestine conflict. For example, imagine it's two ordinary people arguing over something (anything at all) in court. You're the mediator and must come up with a solution. How do you do that when both parties keep saying the other half must make the first step and concessions inorder for the solution process to begin?

_outlaw wrote:

I need more information about this scenario. You can't get some jackass off the street who has no idea what's going on in Israel/Palestine other than them being at a "stallmate" (when in reality Israel is killing off the Palestinians and stealing their land), and that there needs to be a solution. You need to understand what's actually been going on the past 80 years. Otherwise, it's an insult to the 1 million Palestinian refugees if you ignore what they've been through. It's an insult to the destruction of those 418 villages in 1948. It's an insult to the entire Palestinian people, and you know what, to the Israeli civilians who have been killed as well.

This situation needs to be understood completely. If some guy comes in to try to "resolve" the issue without knowing one force is occupying the other, etc, then nothing will be resolved.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

My scenario is based upon the generic principles of mediation, not specifically this conflict. So please answer the question without mentioning the Israel/Palestine conflict. For example, imagine it's two ordinary people arguing over something (anything at all) in court. You're the mediator and must come up with a solution. How do you do that when both parties keep saying the other half must make the first step and concessions inorder for the solution process to begin?

Irrelevant.

In a court room, you quiet both people up.

FiveB247x

So what you're saying is the basic principles of mediation aren't necessary when you have create a massive peace process between two groups who have been taught to hate one another? That's not only an ignorant comment, it spearheads your inability to put aside your blames and biases inorder to create peace. It's counter-productive and probably one of the main reasons we still see this conflict in the shape it is now and going forward. Sad stuff.

_outlaw wrote:

Irrelevant.

In a court room, you quiet both people up.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

So what you're saying is the basic principles of mediation aren't necessary when you have create a massive peace process between two groups who have been taught to hate one another? That's not only an ignorant comment, it spearheads your inability to put aside your blames and biases inorder to create peace. It's counter-productive and probably one of the main reasons we still see this conflict in the shape it is now and going forward. Sad stuff.

The basic principles of mediation? You just compared an argument in a courtroom to not just any conflict, but an illegal occupation, and an oppression.

Tell me this, in an argument in a courtroom do you have 1 million people seeking refuge in other countries because they were either kicked out or ran away from their HOMES? Do you have thousands upon thousands of massacres and deaths? Do you have people living in an occupation, barely having the necessary items to LIVE?

Also, I'm really sick of the whole "taught to hate one another" line. The Palestinians aren't TAUGHT to hate the Israeli army. They experience the torture first hand. Read this: http://annies-letters.blogspot.com/2008/07/palestinian-bar-mitzvah-by-bassam.html if you want to know what I mean.

That's not only an ignorant comment, it spearheads your inability to put aside your blames and biases inorder to create peace. It's counter-productive and probably one of the main reasons we still see this conflict in the shape it is now and going forward.

How is it ignorant? How can you expect the Palestinians to put aside their "blames and biases"? They've been tormented for 60 years. 1,000,000 of them were kicked out or ran away from their country. You seem to downplay all of this, like they can all simply forget about it. THe only thing counter-productive is that the Israelis keep stealing land from the Palestinians. If that would stop, violence would stop.

Don't compare this to the "basic principles of mediation". This is an entirely different scenario. Sadly, one you never seem to comprehend.