Obama determined to pursue an 'aggressive diplomacy' with the Islamic Republic

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NCfan wrote:

What are you talking about here? I'm pretty confused. What is it that I have forgoten in the media? Please explain.

I'll save myself some time here....

America has done nothing wrong. It is in fact absolutely perfect in all international conduct. . The CIA is honest, transparent, and truthful peace loving organization true to all of humanity in every way. Islam is the enemy and must be destroyed because they are evil and must be wiped from the earth no matter what.

and gravity flow upwards...

NCfan

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I'll save myself some time here....

America has done nothing wrong. It is in fact absolutely perfect in all international conduct. . The CIA is honest, transparent, and truthful peace loving organization true to all of humanity in every way. Islam is the enemy and must be destroyed because they are evil and must be wiped from the earth no matter what.

and gravity flow upwards...

Lol, you seem pretty imbalanced dude. I'm just asking simple questions in a non-threatening way. You have insulted my intelegence, referred to me as a sheep, etc.

I may share a different view than you, but it's evident who is willing to chill out and rationally discuss differences.

I mean, what the fuck was that previous post supposed to mean anyways? As if becuase I favor U.S. intervention in the Middle East that I love the CIA and think Islam is the enemy.

Get a grip dude.... you are the zealot - not me!

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NCfan wrote:

Lol, you seem pretty imbalanced dude. I'm just asking simple questions in a non-threatening way. You have insulted my intelegence, referred to me as a sheep, etc.

I may share a different view than you, but it's evident who is willing to chill out and rationally discuss differences.

I mean, what the fuck was that previous post supposed to mean anyways? As if becuase I favor U.S. intervention in the Middle East that I love the CIA and think Islam is the enemy.

Get a grip dude.... you are the zealot - not me!

well that's essentially what you think if you disagree

so there it is.. and there are your insults as well.

and if you could point out where I called you out in particular a "sheep etc.." that would be great...

...btw your point exactly is? I'm kinda missing your logic on this one.

DOSW

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

"The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, and their power of forgetting is enormous." - Adolf Hitler

....enormous

I'm not even going to try to put up a serious debate when I say:

Shut the fuck up.

The fucking arrogance of this post is disgusting.

DriftingByTheStorm

DOSW wrote:

I'm not even going to try to put up a serious debate when I say:

Shut the fuck up.

The fucking arrogance of this post is disgusting.

Actualy i thought Rolands selection of that quote was fairly brilliant.

Hitler was a despicable POS, but that quote of his is on the fukin money!

g under p

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Actualy i thought Rolands selection of that quote was fairly brilliant.

Hitler was a despicable POS, but that quote of his is on the fukin money!

When I saw that quote I thought it was right on also. In America today it seems complacency tends to be the norm. Many tend to look the other way and never want to ask questions about this administration in fear of being unpatriotic.

Peace

Abookamongstthemany

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It's not directed towards you specifically it's just a phenomena in general that you happen to be a part of.

I'm talking about a lot of people. It's epidemic really.

A skeleton in a suit and tie
tells us what we ought to buy
A bag of coke and a nuclear heart
Support your conscience, that's a start

If you win the game, some have to lose
The fun part is that you can't choose
You're born into a social class,
You're stuck there, it's hard to pass

Their social norms and social rules
We're social scum and they're social fools
They tell us all their social lies
Ignoring all our social cries
We'll lose the game before we start
They watch us dance, we fall apart
Well lets be ourselves and never be social
We'll play their game but never be social

Ken and Barb in greek fatigues
tell us what we ought to be
The cars to drive, and what to drink
Ignorant bliss, no need to think
As Barb cakes fetus on her face
Ken sucks blood at his workplace
They take from you, they take from me
Society's anomalies

RolandTD20Kdrummer

DOSW wrote:

I'm not even going to try to put up a serious debate when I say:

Shut the fuck up.

The fucking arrogance of this post is disgusting.

Yo cooter... the man was dead right..

right is right...

now go loosen up with a few Oreo's and some aimless channel surfing...

NCfan

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

well that's essentially what you think if you disagree

so there it is.. and there are your insults as well.

and if you could point out where I called you out in particular a "sheep etc.." that would be great...

...btw your point exactly is? I'm kinda missing your logic on this one.

I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.

It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.

DriftingByTheStorm

NCfan wrote:

I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.

It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.

SO holdin guns to there head making them buy democracy is more moral than just being there to install capitalism and steal oil?

We did both buy the way.
Their constitution was rewritten by us with the intent of givng US corporations specific advantage in their economy.

Also, we have no legal authority to just go around installing puppet democracies just because we disagree with more "closed" political systems.

You can't force freedom on people, especialy if they are culturaly adverse already.

And you forgot to mention that WE installed the Taliban.

:cool:

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NCfan wrote:

I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.

It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think they're spending all that time, energy, and money and just to help out the people of Iraq so we can all feel better knowing they are happier democratic people.

It's a clash of personal ideologies. One side thinks they should change the other...the other side wants to be left alone and have nothing to do with the other.

and oil....that's a biggie..

DriftingByTheStorm

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

and oil....that's a biggie..

You mean it's about oil?
Rove: Iraq Redeployment Would Cause Oil Prices To Skyrocket To $200 A Barrel

???

U R A Crazy Breed

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

The greatest threat to Israel is US Foreign Policy.
Period.

the greatest threat to Israel is ISRAEL!!

and Obama is a warmongering piece of shit too,he will do the bidding of his masters and bomb Iran just as quick as McCain or Bill-ary.

NCfan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

SO holdin guns to there head making them buy democracy is more moral than just being there to install capitalism and steal oil?

We did both buy the way.
Their constitution was rewritten by us with the intent of givng US corporations specific advantage in their economy.

Also, we have no legal authority to just go around installing puppet democracies just because we disagree with more "closed" political systems.

You can't force freedom on people, especialy if they are culturaly adverse already.

And you forgot to mention that WE installed the Taliban.


:cool:

I think you overlook the fact that if we weren't there "holding a gun to their heads" somebody else would be. This is exactly what the Taliban did. This region of the world is too important and holds too many resources for everyone to leave it alone. Can you acknowedge that? And in the case of morality, don't you think it's better that we encourage democracy as opposed to say a Taliban or Saddam style governement?

No governent or country for that matter was ever established where millions of people just gathered together and said "hey, why don't we fucking rule our country this way..." It is always decided by the minority who have the guns. Democracy is EXACTLY the way to give a voice to the masses you..... That is the way to let people decide their own fate. If they vote that the US should leave their country, then we will. If they don't do that, you can scream coruption. That is fine, but don't act like we are the Taliban 2.0 fucking up their country, murdering and plundering.

As much as you wish this were a utopia, the world is not that way. Everybody on this planet has an agenda and so do nations.

Democracy and the free market economies of the world depend upon oil. If oil goes, so does the ecomony. If the ecomony goes, so does democracy. By that line of reasoning, the security of democracy as a whole - not just in the United States, but in the world is at stake in this region.

It's like a chess game. You may not believe it now because you cannot see it yet. But this is how the game will end should this region decend into complete chaos and supply of oil is lost or becomes too expensive.

So yes, this is in large part about oil. Nobody is denying that at all. But we are not stealing it. We are trying to create democratic nations to stabilize the region, and thus the oil.

As far as what is legal and what is not.... you need to understand that whoever has the power writes the rules. This may not be moral, but it is the reality of the world we live in. As much as you scream, bitch and judge about what is right and wrong - you need to acknowledge that if the U.S. Military laid all their guns down in IRaq, somebody else would come pick them up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If we left, somebody else will take on our role as trying to determine the future of the country. Same in Afghanistan.

NCfan

Crazy Breed wrote:

the greatest threat to Israel is ISRAEL!!

and Obama is a warmongering piece of shit too,he will do the bidding of his masters and bomb Iran just as quick as McCain or Bill-ary.

LOL, where do you people get this shit from. Why would the United States bomb Iran anytime in the forseeable future? That makes absolutely no sense.

The only reason we would take military action against Iran is if if was immenent that they were going to obtain a nuclear weapon.

From all intelegence estimates, that is still SEVERAL years away.

Also, who the fuck are these "masters" you talk about. Give me a fucking break.....

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

The greatest threat to Israel is US Foreign Policy.
Period.

the greatest threat to israel is their own aroggant ways

DriftingByTheStorm

So NC Fan basicaly admits that we are in the region soley for oil.

Then he goes on to say "that is exactly the way you let the people decide for themselves".

Huh?

So by toppling their government, you are letting them decide?

Give me a fucking break.

If the people of Iraq wanted democracy,
they should have toppled their own government.

Where there is a will, there is a way, right?

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So NC Fan basicaly admits that we are in the region soley for oil.

Then he goes on to say "that is exactly the way you let the people decide for themselves".

Huh?

So by toppling their government, you are letting them decide?

Give me a fucking break.

If the people of Iraq wanted democracy,
they should have toppled their own government.

Where there is a will, there is a way, right?

yup yup
i think it was Malcom X who said

''Freedom cant be given.. it has to be taken''


something like that


but all that aside... this isnt the reason those troops are in Iraq and it never was.

NCfan

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So NC Fan basicaly admits that we are in the region soley for oil.

Then he goes on to say "that is exactly the way you let the people decide for themselves".

Huh?

So by toppling their government, you are letting them decide?

Give me a fucking break.

If the people of Iraq wanted democracy,
they should have toppled their own government.

Where there is a will, there is a way, right?

No, it is painfully clear that we are in the region to stablize it. If we were there solely for oil, then our troops would not be patrolling the streets of Baghdad, supervising the construction of schools or advising provincial leaders how to create, maintain and manage a civil society.

We would not be there battling Al Qaida, or wasting our time trying to install democracy. If we were solely there for oil, out troops would have gone straight to the oil fields and began pumping crude into American tankers in the Persian Gulf.

This is hardly the narrative of Iraq. We are there for many reasons, cheif among them is security from terrorists. Oil, democracy and stabilzation are all one in the same. You cannot stablize oil without stablizing the coutnry. You cannot stablize a country without democracy.

I know this is confusing for you, but try to keep up. Don't worry, I'm very patient and am glad to explain this as many times as you need.

DriftingByTheStorm

NCfan wrote:

No, it is painfully clear that we are in the region to stablize it.

Really?
Because i would say it is painfully clear that the region is more irreparably unstable since our INVASION than it ever was before.

Case in point, Iran is getting hot about the Kurds and is allegedly arming insurgents. Turkey is getting hot about the Kurds. The Sunis and the Shites are going at it. Al Qaeda is allegedly all over Iraq, which it NEVER was before. Afghanistan is in turmoil and is a warlords dream in the north. Israel bombed Syria. Pakistan is falling down.

I mean i could go on and on. And if you are gonna say none of that is related, at least the Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan stuff is all DIRECTLY related to our invasion.

And now our presence and posturing is REALLY stirring up Iran, and that is causing massive tension with Israel which is armed to the teeth with nukes.

And yet you throw around this word "stability" and say that they (all arabs) should be grateful america is saving their land?

That is a highly dubious assertion.

And to boot, you yourself -- even worse than the administration which has atleast managed to never concede the truth about the entire war being over oil -- can't even hold a steady argument. One minute it is all "freedom and democracy", then its "Freedom and a little bit of oil", then its "oil, and okay but freedom too", and now you are back to "yeah it was all freedom. wtf are you talking about oil?"

Please.