What are you talking about here? I'm pretty confused. What is it that I have forgoten in the media? Please explain.
I'll save myself some time here....
America has done nothing wrong. It is in fact absolutely perfect in all international conduct. . The CIA is honest, transparent, and truthful peace loving organization true to all of humanity in every way. Islam is the enemy and must be destroyed because they are evil and must be wiped from the earth no matter what.
and gravity flow upwards...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
America has done nothing wrong. It is in fact absolutely perfect in all international conduct. . The CIA is honest, transparent, and truthful peace loving organization true to all of humanity in every way. Islam is the enemy and must be destroyed because they are evil and must be wiped from the earth no matter what.
and gravity flow upwards...
Lol, you seem pretty imbalanced dude. I'm just asking simple questions in a non-threatening way. You have insulted my intelegence, referred to me as a sheep, etc.
I may share a different view than you, but it's evident who is willing to chill out and rationally discuss differences.
I mean, what the fuck was that previous post supposed to mean anyways? As if becuase I favor U.S. intervention in the Middle East that I love the CIA and think Islam is the enemy.
Lol, you seem pretty imbalanced dude. I'm just asking simple questions in a non-threatening way. You have insulted my intelegence, referred to me as a sheep, etc.
I may share a different view than you, but it's evident who is willing to chill out and rationally discuss differences.
I mean, what the fuck was that previous post supposed to mean anyways? As if becuase I favor U.S. intervention in the Middle East that I love the CIA and think Islam is the enemy.
Get a grip dude.... you are the zealot - not me!
well that's essentially what you think if you disagree
so there it is.. and there are your insults as well.
and if you could point out where I called you out in particular a "sheep etc.." that would be great...
...btw your point exactly is? I'm kinda missing your logic on this one.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Actualy i thought Rolands selection of that quote was fairly brilliant.
Hitler was a despicable POS, but that quote of his is on the fukin money!
When I saw that quote I thought it was right on also. In America today it seems complacency tends to be the norm. Many tend to look the other way and never want to ask questions about this administration in fear of being unpatriotic.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
It's not directed towards you specifically it's just a phenomena in general that you happen to be a part of.
I'm talking about a lot of people. It's epidemic really.
A skeleton in a suit and tie
tells us what we ought to buy
A bag of coke and a nuclear heart
Support your conscience, that's a start
If you win the game, some have to lose
The fun part is that you can't choose
You're born into a social class,
You're stuck there, it's hard to pass
Their social norms and social rules
We're social scum and they're social fools
They tell us all their social lies
Ignoring all our social cries
We'll lose the game before we start
They watch us dance, we fall apart
Well lets be ourselves and never be social
We'll play their game but never be social
Ken and Barb in greek fatigues
tell us what we ought to be
The cars to drive, and what to drink
Ignorant bliss, no need to think
As Barb cakes fetus on her face
Ken sucks blood at his workplace
They take from you, they take from me
Society's anomalies
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not even going to try to put up a serious debate when I say:
Shut the fuck up.
The fucking arrogance of this post is disgusting.
Yo cooter... the man was dead right..
right is right...
now go loosen up with a few Oreo's and some aimless channel surfing...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
well that's essentially what you think if you disagree
so there it is.. and there are your insults as well.
and if you could point out where I called you out in particular a "sheep etc.." that would be great...
...btw your point exactly is? I'm kinda missing your logic on this one.
I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.
It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.
I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.
It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.
SO holdin guns to there head making them buy democracy is more moral than just being there to install capitalism and steal oil?
We did both buy the way.
Their constitution was rewritten by us with the intent of givng US corporations specific advantage in their economy.
Also, we have no legal authority to just go around installing puppet democracies just because we disagree with more "closed" political systems.
You can't force freedom on people, especialy if they are culturaly adverse already.
And you forgot to mention that WE installed the Taliban.
:cool:
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.
It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.
I think you're kidding yourself if you think they're spending all that time, energy, and money and just to help out the people of Iraq so we can all feel better knowing they are happier democratic people.
It's a clash of personal ideologies. One side thinks they should change the other...the other side wants to be left alone and have nothing to do with the other.
and oil....that's a biggie..
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
SO holdin guns to there head making them buy democracy is more moral than just being there to install capitalism and steal oil?
We did both buy the way.
Their constitution was rewritten by us with the intent of givng US corporations specific advantage in their economy.
Also, we have no legal authority to just go around installing puppet democracies just because we disagree with more "closed" political systems.
You can't force freedom on people, especialy if they are culturaly adverse already.
And you forgot to mention that WE installed the Taliban.
:cool:
I think you overlook the fact that if we weren't there "holding a gun to their heads" somebody else would be. This is exactly what the Taliban did. This region of the world is too important and holds too many resources for everyone to leave it alone. Can you acknowedge that? And in the case of morality, don't you think it's better that we encourage democracy as opposed to say a Taliban or Saddam style governement?
No governent or country for that matter was ever established where millions of people just gathered together and said "hey, why don't we fucking rule our country this way..." It is always decided by the minority who have the guns. Democracy is EXACTLY the way to give a voice to the masses you..... That is the way to let people decide their own fate. If they vote that the US should leave their country, then we will. If they don't do that, you can scream coruption. That is fine, but don't act like we are the Taliban 2.0 fucking up their country, murdering and plundering.
As much as you wish this were a utopia, the world is not that way. Everybody on this planet has an agenda and so do nations.
Democracy and the free market economies of the world depend upon oil. If oil goes, so does the ecomony. If the ecomony goes, so does democracy. By that line of reasoning, the security of democracy as a whole - not just in the United States, but in the world is at stake in this region.
It's like a chess game. You may not believe it now because you cannot see it yet. But this is how the game will end should this region decend into complete chaos and supply of oil is lost or becomes too expensive.
So yes, this is in large part about oil. Nobody is denying that at all. But we are not stealing it. We are trying to create democratic nations to stabilize the region, and thus the oil.
As far as what is legal and what is not.... you need to understand that whoever has the power writes the rules. This may not be moral, but it is the reality of the world we live in. As much as you scream, bitch and judge about what is right and wrong - you need to acknowledge that if the U.S. Military laid all their guns down in IRaq, somebody else would come pick them up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If we left, somebody else will take on our role as trying to determine the future of the country. Same in Afghanistan.
So NC Fan basicaly admits that we are in the region soley for oil.
Then he goes on to say "that is exactly the way you let the people decide for themselves".
Huh?
So by toppling their government, you are letting them decide?
Give me a fucking break.
If the people of Iraq wanted democracy,
they should have toppled their own government.
Where there is a will, there is a way, right?
No, it is painfully clear that we are in the region to stablize it. If we were there solely for oil, then our troops would not be patrolling the streets of Baghdad, supervising the construction of schools or advising provincial leaders how to create, maintain and manage a civil society.
We would not be there battling Al Qaida, or wasting our time trying to install democracy. If we were solely there for oil, out troops would have gone straight to the oil fields and began pumping crude into American tankers in the Persian Gulf.
This is hardly the narrative of Iraq. We are there for many reasons, cheif among them is security from terrorists. Oil, democracy and stabilzation are all one in the same. You cannot stablize oil without stablizing the coutnry. You cannot stablize a country without democracy.
I know this is confusing for you, but try to keep up. Don't worry, I'm very patient and am glad to explain this as many times as you need.
No, it is painfully clear that we are in the region to stablize it.
Really?
Because i would say it is painfully clear that the region is more irreparably unstable since our INVASION than it ever was before.
Case in point, Iran is getting hot about the Kurds and is allegedly arming insurgents. Turkey is getting hot about the Kurds. The Sunis and the Shites are going at it. Al Qaeda is allegedly all over Iraq, which it NEVER was before. Afghanistan is in turmoil and is a warlords dream in the north. Israel bombed Syria. Pakistan is falling down.
I mean i could go on and on. And if you are gonna say none of that is related, at least the Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan stuff is all DIRECTLY related to our invasion.
And now our presence and posturing is REALLY stirring up Iran, and that is causing massive tension with Israel which is armed to the teeth with nukes.
And yet you throw around this word "stability" and say that they (all arabs) should be grateful america is saving their land?
That is a highly dubious assertion.
And to boot, you yourself -- even worse than the administration which has atleast managed to never concede the truth about the entire war being over oil -- can't even hold a steady argument. One minute it is all "freedom and democracy", then its "Freedom and a little bit of oil", then its "oil, and okay but freedom too", and now you are back to "yeah it was all freedom. wtf are you talking about oil?"
Please.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
LOL, where do you people get this shit from. Why would the United States bomb Iran anytime in the forseeable future? That makes absolutely no sense.
The only reason we would take military action against Iran is if if was immenent that they were going to obtain a nuclear weapon.
From all intelegence estimates, that is still SEVERAL years away.
Also, who the fuck are these "masters" you talk about. Give me a fucking break.....
read the fucking PNAC document (project for new American century written by Wolfowitz,Perle and non other than Chaney,as well as a few others) then see if you laugh out loud.
i didn't say it made sense,not for our country.but that's not why they want to do it.besides,what politicians do never makes sense unless you know what they are really trying to achieve.
Certain folks with certain ideologies assume the supreme right to conduct themselves as they please in other countries as they please, and justify it as they
see fit. When something begins to trouble them, they justify that as well by going back to step A and then repeat justification process until they feel ok.... Whether it's right or wrong to kill people and invade countries with lethal force, its still gets justified as the right thing to do for them regardless. My favorite justification is that we'll if we weren't attacking and using lethal force, someone else would so it's really all ok in the "big picture".
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Really?
Because i would say it is painfully clear that the region is more irreparably unstable since our INVASION than it ever was before.
Case in point, Iran is getting hot about the Kurds and is allegedly arming insurgents. Turkey is getting hot about the Kurds. The Sunis and the Shites are going at it. Al Qaeda is allegedly all over Iraq, which it NEVER was before. Afghanistan is in turmoil and is a warlords dream in the north. Israel bombed Syria. Pakistan is falling down.
I mean i could go on and on. And if you are gonna say none of that is related, at least the Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan stuff is all DIRECTLY related to our invasion.
And now our presence and posturing is REALLY stirring up Iran, and that is causing massive tension with Israel which is armed to the teeth with nukes.
And yet you throw around this word "stability" and say that they (all arabs) should be grateful america is saving their land?
That is a highly dubious assertion.
And to boot, you yourself -- even worse than the administration which has atleast managed to never concede the truth about the entire war being over oil -- can't even hold a steady argument. One minute it is all "freedom and democracy", then its "Freedom and a little bit of oil", then its "oil, and okay but freedom too", and now you are back to "yeah it was all freedom. wtf are you talking about oil?"
Please.
Trying to have a meaningful discussion with somebody such as yourself is pointless, but what the hell.
I have been arguing the motives behind U.S. intervention in the Middle East. You want to judge the authenticity of those motives based on their degree of success to date. As if becuase we aren't succeeding means we aren't trying.
Again, how do you debate with somebody who uses such logic.. it's impossible.
I've laid out why the U.S. is in the Middle East very plainly in multiple post. There is no reason why anybody who wants to understand my points cannot. Now whether you agree or not is a different matter.
Certain folks with certain ideologies assume the supreme right to conduct themselves as they please in other countries as they please, and justify it as they
see fit. When something begins to trouble them, they justify that as well by going back to step A and then repeat justification process until they feel ok.... Whether it's right or wrong to kill people and invade countries with lethal force, its still gets justified as the right thing to do for them regardless. My favorite justification is that we'll if we weren't attacking and using lethal force, someone else would so it's really all ok in the "big picture".
Finally you address one of my points... maybe we can expand on that.
Please explain why you disagree with the logic that if the U.S. were not in region, other nations would be exerting their influence too.
Case in point is Iran's sponsorship and support for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas who are both actively and violently seeking to over turn governements exactly like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
Certain folks with certain ideologies assume the supreme right to conduct themselves as they please in other countries as they please, and justify it as they
see fit. When something begins to trouble them, they justify that as well by going back to step A and then repeat justification process until they feel ok.... Whether it's right or wrong to kill people and invade countries with lethal force, its still gets justified as the right thing to do for them regardless. My favorite justification is that we'll if we weren't attacking and using lethal force, someone else would so it's really all ok in the "big picture".
Finally you address one of my points... maybe we can expand on that.
Please explain why you disagree with the logic that if the U.S. were not in the region, other nations would be exerting their influence too.
Case in point is Iran's sponsorship and support for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas who are both actively and violently seeking to over turn governements exactly like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
So this is a global game of "But, He Started It!"
?
America would do well to leave well alone until there is a REAL threat.
and by threat i mean, Iran comes out and says "you die!" or our intelligence comes out with CREDIBLE information to say there is a IMMINENT threat.
Otherwise, seeking war just to stop the spread of religion and ideas we dont agree with only serves to further the spread of such ideas ... which are principly based of the assertion that "the US is evil because it continues to interfer in the affairs of our region, and it does so for its own purposes" ...
And you are right, you have clearly argued the US motives for being in the middle east: You say its because we want oil, and we want to force our political will upon an unwilling region.
I think that is where some of us take offense.
Some of us feel that we should not be where we are not wanted doing things they dont want us doing.
Regardless of what the US wants.
You think maybe we could have just been friendly with Iran since 1950 and tried to get on their good side?
Instead we get the CIA to overthrow ole Mossadegh, their first elected president ever, and then we install an evil opressive dictator.
So, you don't think maybe we should have, and still should just leave them the fuck alone?
???
And again, you know WHY we overthrew Mossadegh?
I give you one guess.
Uh.
Yeah.
OIL.
He wanted to nationalize their oil fields.
Hmm.
:rolleyes:
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Finally you address one of my points... maybe we can expand on that.
Please explain why you disagree with the logic that if the U.S. were not in the region, other nations would be exerting their influence too.
Case in point is Iran's sponsorship and support for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas who are both actively and violently seeking to over turn governements exactly like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
This should not be too hard for you.
That simple... the concept of intra or inter would sum it up. So you're now saying the only reason there aren't hundreds of hezbollah (and etc etc terrorist) bases all around the world shooting and blowing everyone up is because of the US is pre-invading everyone around the world to keep it all under wraps?
That's a stretch to put it lightly...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So this is a global game of "But, He Started It!"
?
America would do well to leave well alone until there is a REAL threat.
and by threat i mean, Iran comes out and says "you die!" or our intelligence comes out with CREDIBLE information to say there is a IMMINENT threat.
Otherwise, seeking war just to stop the spread of religion and ideas we dont agree with only serves to further the spread of such ideas ... which are principly based of the assertion that "the US is evil because it continues to interfer in the affairs of our region, and it does so for its own purposes" ...
And you are right, you have clearly argued the US motives for being in the middle east: You say its because we want oil, and we want to force our political will upon an unwilling region.
I think that is where some of us take offense.
Some of us feel that we should not be where we are not wanted doing things they dont want us doing.
Regardless of what the US wants.
You think maybe we could have just been friendly with Iran since 1950 and tried to get on their good side?
Instead we get the CIA to overthrow ole Mossadegh, their first elected president ever, and then we install an evil opressive dictator.
So, you don't think maybe we should have, and still should just leave them the fuck alone?
???
And again, you know WHY we overthrew Mossadegh?
I give you one guess.
Uh.
Yeah.
OIL.
He wanted to nationalize their oil fields.
Hmm.
:rolleyes:
Thanks for a pretty good post. You bring up a fundamental difference between our two points of view that is worth talking about.
You say that we are forcing our political will on an unwilling region. This is where things get murky, and I think we there is a legitimate debate to be had with two very strong points of view.
I respect that you think the region doesn't want us there. Afterall there are plenty of signs that point to that, and I would be dumb not to acknowledge them.
However, I'm not so sure the "region" doesn't want us there. It may be immpossible to know, but first off, who is it that really doesn't want us there. Is it governments such as Iran or Syria that want us out? If so, that matters little as those regimes are considered illegitimate to start with.
Is it the people? And if so, what are their motives? For instance, let's take Iraq. The vast majority of people there have known nothing in their lives except for war. Iran and Iraq went at it for 8 years during the 80's. Then Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 and the US went in a pretty much destroyed their country six months later. Ever since they lived under tight embargoes and sanctions while Saddam increased his ruthlessness to keep his power during this tought time. Then in 2003, we invaded again and you know the story of the past 5 years.
So my point is, Iraqi's are a battered and worn people. They might not have the strength, will power or vision to pick themselves up and strive for something better than a Saddam strongman for a leader or a Taliban style regime - which is what would happen should the US leave. I guess I'm saying that the jury is still out, because if start to make real gains and real progress in Iraq. If we start to stablize the country and make lives better, then attitudes can change drastically. Not becuase we are brainwashing people or buying them off, but becuase they may start to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
So for now, I do not think we can say for sure, either way, if the Iraqi's or others in the region really want us to leave. I think we will not be able to say with certainty for some time.
You know there are many countries, such as the newly formed Kosovo and Georgia, where the U.S. intervened militarily and now the people absolutely LOVE us.
Trust me, this isn't just a lot of hope on my part. If the writing was on the wall for me, I would be the first to say we need to get the hell out of there. I just can't see it yet. But trust me, I'm looking.
That simple... the concept of intra or inter would sum it up. So you're now saying the only reason there aren't hundreds of hezbollah (and etc etc terrorist) bases all around the world shooting and blowing everyone up is because of the US is pre-invading everyone around the world to keep it all under wraps?
That's a stretch to put it lightly...
Dude, no I'm not saying that and you know it. Quit trying to distort my position. I know how you feel and I'm offering a rebutle. You know how I feel as well, but instead of addressing my points directly or answering questions to offer your opinion - instead you try to distort my position.
I'm not saying you have to agree with me by any means. I know you do not, and I'm fine with that. But stop saying stupid ass shit like "Some people fool themsevles into thinking its okay to kill other people, etc & when they feel bad about it, they just continue the process of lying to themselves so they can keep justifying it..."
That is just lame dude.... it's pretty obvious I have sound reasons why I beleive what I do. It's sad though that people such as yourself can't man up and disucss those differences without all the bullshit.
Comments
I'll save myself some time here....
America has done nothing wrong. It is in fact absolutely perfect in all international conduct. . The CIA is honest, transparent, and truthful peace loving organization true to all of humanity in every way. Islam is the enemy and must be destroyed because they are evil and must be wiped from the earth no matter what.
and gravity flow upwards...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Lol, you seem pretty imbalanced dude. I'm just asking simple questions in a non-threatening way. You have insulted my intelegence, referred to me as a sheep, etc.
I may share a different view than you, but it's evident who is willing to chill out and rationally discuss differences.
I mean, what the fuck was that previous post supposed to mean anyways? As if becuase I favor U.S. intervention in the Middle East that I love the CIA and think Islam is the enemy.
Get a grip dude.... you are the zealot - not me!
well that's essentially what you think if you disagree
so there it is.. and there are your insults as well.
and if you could point out where I called you out in particular a "sheep etc.." that would be great...
...btw your point exactly is? I'm kinda missing your logic on this one.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I'm not even going to try to put up a serious debate when I say:
Shut the fuck up.
The fucking arrogance of this post is disgusting.
Actualy i thought Rolands selection of that quote was fairly brilliant.
Hitler was a despicable POS, but that quote of his is on the fukin money!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
When I saw that quote I thought it was right on also. In America today it seems complacency tends to be the norm. Many tend to look the other way and never want to ask questions about this administration in fear of being unpatriotic.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
A skeleton in a suit and tie
tells us what we ought to buy
A bag of coke and a nuclear heart
Support your conscience, that's a start
If you win the game, some have to lose
The fun part is that you can't choose
You're born into a social class,
You're stuck there, it's hard to pass
Their social norms and social rules
We're social scum and they're social fools
They tell us all their social lies
Ignoring all our social cries
We'll lose the game before we start
They watch us dance, we fall apart
Well lets be ourselves and never be social
We'll play their game but never be social
Ken and Barb in greek fatigues
tell us what we ought to be
The cars to drive, and what to drink
Ignorant bliss, no need to think
As Barb cakes fetus on her face
Ken sucks blood at his workplace
They take from you, they take from me
Society's anomalies
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yo cooter... the man was dead right..
right is right...
now go loosen up with a few Oreo's and some aimless channel surfing...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I'm saying that an Afghanistan without the Taliban in charge and Iraq without Saddam ruling are good things. A stabilizing constitutional government in both countries should result in a steadily diminishing American presence. This is what our troops are in the region trying to accomplish.
It's not like we went and invaded France. Both of these nations were broken states ruled by oppresive regimes that did not give the people they subjigated a voice or means to determine their own destiny. That is the only morality the United States is interested in. We are not over there holding guns to people's heads making them buy Coca Cola and Nikes while stealing their oil.
SO holdin guns to there head making them buy democracy is more moral than just being there to install capitalism and steal oil?
We did both buy the way.
Their constitution was rewritten by us with the intent of givng US corporations specific advantage in their economy.
Also, we have no legal authority to just go around installing puppet democracies just because we disagree with more "closed" political systems.
You can't force freedom on people, especialy if they are culturaly adverse already.
And you forgot to mention that WE installed the Taliban.
:cool:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think you're kidding yourself if you think they're spending all that time, energy, and money and just to help out the people of Iraq so we can all feel better knowing they are happier democratic people.
It's a clash of personal ideologies. One side thinks they should change the other...the other side wants to be left alone and have nothing to do with the other.
and oil....that's a biggie..
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You mean it's about oil?
Rove: Iraq Redeployment Would Cause Oil Prices To Skyrocket To $200 A Barrel
???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
the greatest threat to Israel is ISRAEL!!
and Obama is a warmongering piece of shit too,he will do the bidding of his masters and bomb Iran just as quick as McCain or Bill-ary.
I think you overlook the fact that if we weren't there "holding a gun to their heads" somebody else would be. This is exactly what the Taliban did. This region of the world is too important and holds too many resources for everyone to leave it alone. Can you acknowedge that? And in the case of morality, don't you think it's better that we encourage democracy as opposed to say a Taliban or Saddam style governement?
No governent or country for that matter was ever established where millions of people just gathered together and said "hey, why don't we fucking rule our country this way..." It is always decided by the minority who have the guns. Democracy is EXACTLY the way to give a voice to the masses you..... That is the way to let people decide their own fate. If they vote that the US should leave their country, then we will. If they don't do that, you can scream coruption. That is fine, but don't act like we are the Taliban 2.0 fucking up their country, murdering and plundering.
As much as you wish this were a utopia, the world is not that way. Everybody on this planet has an agenda and so do nations.
Democracy and the free market economies of the world depend upon oil. If oil goes, so does the ecomony. If the ecomony goes, so does democracy. By that line of reasoning, the security of democracy as a whole - not just in the United States, but in the world is at stake in this region.
It's like a chess game. You may not believe it now because you cannot see it yet. But this is how the game will end should this region decend into complete chaos and supply of oil is lost or becomes too expensive.
So yes, this is in large part about oil. Nobody is denying that at all. But we are not stealing it. We are trying to create democratic nations to stabilize the region, and thus the oil.
As far as what is legal and what is not.... you need to understand that whoever has the power writes the rules. This may not be moral, but it is the reality of the world we live in. As much as you scream, bitch and judge about what is right and wrong - you need to acknowledge that if the U.S. Military laid all their guns down in IRaq, somebody else would come pick them up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If we left, somebody else will take on our role as trying to determine the future of the country. Same in Afghanistan.
LOL, where do you people get this shit from. Why would the United States bomb Iran anytime in the forseeable future? That makes absolutely no sense.
The only reason we would take military action against Iran is if if was immenent that they were going to obtain a nuclear weapon.
From all intelegence estimates, that is still SEVERAL years away.
Also, who the fuck are these "masters" you talk about. Give me a fucking break.....
the greatest threat to israel is their own aroggant ways
Then he goes on to say "that is exactly the way you let the people decide for themselves".
Huh?
So by toppling their government, you are letting them decide?
Give me a fucking break.
If the people of Iraq wanted democracy,
they should have toppled their own government.
Where there is a will, there is a way, right?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
yup yup
i think it was Malcom X who said
''Freedom cant be given.. it has to be taken''
something like that
but all that aside... this isnt the reason those troops are in Iraq and it never was.
No, it is painfully clear that we are in the region to stablize it. If we were there solely for oil, then our troops would not be patrolling the streets of Baghdad, supervising the construction of schools or advising provincial leaders how to create, maintain and manage a civil society.
We would not be there battling Al Qaida, or wasting our time trying to install democracy. If we were solely there for oil, out troops would have gone straight to the oil fields and began pumping crude into American tankers in the Persian Gulf.
This is hardly the narrative of Iraq. We are there for many reasons, cheif among them is security from terrorists. Oil, democracy and stabilzation are all one in the same. You cannot stablize oil without stablizing the coutnry. You cannot stablize a country without democracy.
I know this is confusing for you, but try to keep up. Don't worry, I'm very patient and am glad to explain this as many times as you need.
Really?
Because i would say it is painfully clear that the region is more irreparably unstable since our INVASION than it ever was before.
Case in point, Iran is getting hot about the Kurds and is allegedly arming insurgents. Turkey is getting hot about the Kurds. The Sunis and the Shites are going at it. Al Qaeda is allegedly all over Iraq, which it NEVER was before. Afghanistan is in turmoil and is a warlords dream in the north. Israel bombed Syria. Pakistan is falling down.
I mean i could go on and on. And if you are gonna say none of that is related, at least the Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan stuff is all DIRECTLY related to our invasion.
And now our presence and posturing is REALLY stirring up Iran, and that is causing massive tension with Israel which is armed to the teeth with nukes.
And yet you throw around this word "stability" and say that they (all arabs) should be grateful america is saving their land?
That is a highly dubious assertion.
And to boot, you yourself -- even worse than the administration which has atleast managed to never concede the truth about the entire war being over oil -- can't even hold a steady argument. One minute it is all "freedom and democracy", then its "Freedom and a little bit of oil", then its "oil, and okay but freedom too", and now you are back to "yeah it was all freedom. wtf are you talking about oil?"
Please.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
read the fucking PNAC document (project for new American century written by Wolfowitz,Perle and non other than Chaney,as well as a few others) then see if you laugh out loud.
i didn't say it made sense,not for our country.but that's not why they want to do it.besides,what politicians do never makes sense unless you know what they are really trying to achieve.
see fit. When something begins to trouble them, they justify that as well by going back to step A and then repeat justification process until they feel ok.... Whether it's right or wrong to kill people and invade countries with lethal force, its still gets justified as the right thing to do for them regardless. My favorite justification is that we'll if we weren't attacking and using lethal force, someone else would so it's really all ok in the "big picture".
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Trying to have a meaningful discussion with somebody such as yourself is pointless, but what the hell.
I have been arguing the motives behind U.S. intervention in the Middle East. You want to judge the authenticity of those motives based on their degree of success to date. As if becuase we aren't succeeding means we aren't trying.
Again, how do you debate with somebody who uses such logic.. it's impossible.
I've laid out why the U.S. is in the Middle East very plainly in multiple post. There is no reason why anybody who wants to understand my points cannot. Now whether you agree or not is a different matter.
Finally you address one of my points... maybe we can expand on that.
Please explain why you disagree with the logic that if the U.S. were not in region, other nations would be exerting their influence too.
Case in point is Iran's sponsorship and support for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas who are both actively and violently seeking to over turn governements exactly like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
Finally you address one of my points... maybe we can expand on that.
Please explain why you disagree with the logic that if the U.S. were not in the region, other nations would be exerting their influence too.
Case in point is Iran's sponsorship and support for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas who are both actively and violently seeking to over turn governements exactly like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Please explain why it is okay for them to persue their agenda, yet it is not okay for the United States to persue theirs.
This should not be too hard for you.
So this is a global game of "But, He Started It!"
?
America would do well to leave well alone until there is a REAL threat.
and by threat i mean, Iran comes out and says "you die!" or our intelligence comes out with CREDIBLE information to say there is a IMMINENT threat.
Otherwise, seeking war just to stop the spread of religion and ideas we dont agree with only serves to further the spread of such ideas ... which are principly based of the assertion that "the US is evil because it continues to interfer in the affairs of our region, and it does so for its own purposes" ...
And you are right, you have clearly argued the US motives for being in the middle east: You say its because we want oil, and we want to force our political will upon an unwilling region.
I think that is where some of us take offense.
Some of us feel that we should not be where we are not wanted doing things they dont want us doing.
Regardless of what the US wants.
You think maybe we could have just been friendly with Iran since 1950 and tried to get on their good side?
Instead we get the CIA to overthrow ole Mossadegh, their first elected president ever, and then we install an evil opressive dictator.
So, you don't think maybe we should have, and still should just leave them the fuck alone?
???
And again, you know WHY we overthrew Mossadegh?
I give you one guess.
Uh.
Yeah.
OIL.
He wanted to nationalize their oil fields.
Hmm.
:rolleyes:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
That simple... the concept of intra or inter would sum it up. So you're now saying the only reason there aren't hundreds of hezbollah (and etc etc terrorist) bases all around the world shooting and blowing everyone up is because of the US is pre-invading everyone around the world to keep it all under wraps?
That's a stretch to put it lightly...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Thanks for a pretty good post. You bring up a fundamental difference between our two points of view that is worth talking about.
You say that we are forcing our political will on an unwilling region. This is where things get murky, and I think we there is a legitimate debate to be had with two very strong points of view.
I respect that you think the region doesn't want us there. Afterall there are plenty of signs that point to that, and I would be dumb not to acknowledge them.
However, I'm not so sure the "region" doesn't want us there. It may be immpossible to know, but first off, who is it that really doesn't want us there. Is it governments such as Iran or Syria that want us out? If so, that matters little as those regimes are considered illegitimate to start with.
Is it the people? And if so, what are their motives? For instance, let's take Iraq. The vast majority of people there have known nothing in their lives except for war. Iran and Iraq went at it for 8 years during the 80's. Then Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 and the US went in a pretty much destroyed their country six months later. Ever since they lived under tight embargoes and sanctions while Saddam increased his ruthlessness to keep his power during this tought time. Then in 2003, we invaded again and you know the story of the past 5 years.
So my point is, Iraqi's are a battered and worn people. They might not have the strength, will power or vision to pick themselves up and strive for something better than a Saddam strongman for a leader or a Taliban style regime - which is what would happen should the US leave. I guess I'm saying that the jury is still out, because if start to make real gains and real progress in Iraq. If we start to stablize the country and make lives better, then attitudes can change drastically. Not becuase we are brainwashing people or buying them off, but becuase they may start to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
So for now, I do not think we can say for sure, either way, if the Iraqi's or others in the region really want us to leave. I think we will not be able to say with certainty for some time.
You know there are many countries, such as the newly formed Kosovo and Georgia, where the U.S. intervened militarily and now the people absolutely LOVE us.
Trust me, this isn't just a lot of hope on my part. If the writing was on the wall for me, I would be the first to say we need to get the hell out of there. I just can't see it yet. But trust me, I'm looking.
Dude, no I'm not saying that and you know it. Quit trying to distort my position. I know how you feel and I'm offering a rebutle. You know how I feel as well, but instead of addressing my points directly or answering questions to offer your opinion - instead you try to distort my position.
I'm not saying you have to agree with me by any means. I know you do not, and I'm fine with that. But stop saying stupid ass shit like "Some people fool themsevles into thinking its okay to kill other people, etc & when they feel bad about it, they just continue the process of lying to themselves so they can keep justifying it..."
That is just lame dude.... it's pretty obvious I have sound reasons why I beleive what I do. It's sad though that people such as yourself can't man up and disucss those differences without all the bullshit.