Look you guys, I doubt there is an international border anywhere on Earth that wasn't formed or influenced by war or fighting.
Is this fair? No, it is not.
Should humans be better than this?
I think so, but I think we can all agree that we haven't gotten that far yet as a species.
Palestine lost a war in 1948, and ever since then Israel has been the dominant player in the region. Several more wars have ensued, and the Arabs have lost them all.
At this point, Israel's power is so great and deeply solidified that we cannot even comprehend their nation going away.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm not advocating Israel of anything they have done to get where they are. I'm just saying, DAMN, the Palestinians need to wise up and quit throwing generation after generation down the fucking shitter becuase of lost pride and religious fundamentalism.
I mean, does it make sense for American Indians to try and carve out a state of their own in the U.S.?
Do they deserve one?
Hell yes they do.
Where they fucked over in the 19th and 20th centuries?
Hell yes they were.
Same principle. Quit fighting a lost cause. Know when to hold'em and when to fold'em.
At this point, I think the Israelis and Palestinians are fighting out of pure hate. They hate each other so much, that they cannot fathom living together in peace.
lost pride and religious fundamentalism?
christ, i shouldn't even waste my time with you.
And yeah, pure hate, that's why the palestinians are fighting back. it's the only logical explanation.
And yeah, pure hate, that's why the palestinians are fighting back. it's the only logical explanation.
I was about to say the same thing. They are not fighting for those things as much as they don't want to be wiped off the map.
I'm sure NC Fan would just lie down and allow his family and home to be bulldozed over or shot to death just because the people who were doing it had more power and numbers. I'm sure he would see defending his home and his very life as futile and give up. Riiight.
I respect people who try peaceful, diplomatic approaches and think it's always be the best way but there comes a time when you're forced to defend yourself or die out.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
. Quit fighting a lost cause. Know when to hold'em and when to fold'em.
At this point, I think the Israelis and Palestinians are fighting out of pure hate. They hate each other so much, that they cannot fathom living together in peace.
Never say die... and they won't. What doesn't kill you altogether makes you stronger
It's a nice game of ping pong....a mouse v.s. an elephant...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
sorry to be a bummer but i've been wondering lately? what if.... we stoped medeling in other governments? trying to "give" other countries democracy?what if we stopped giving any government that showed agression $$, what if we tried to talk to our enemies, and a arab/ israeli solution... everyone go to your own room and stay there? israeli jews would say we aren't supporting them but is this any way to live? with your neighbors?your children all bleed the same, all soldiers or terrorists(soldiers also but without a government to back them)are someones child. scars from our own wars can still be felt at getteysburg, at pine ridge these 2 places and many more they say you can still hear moans in the night. a better way?
03 bristow,04 reading,05 toronto,05 phillie,06 camden,06 dc,07 chicago,08 dc,08 camden,09 philliex2,10 bristow
eddie solo 08 dc,09 balt, 11 phillie
and now i'm pissed cause native rights are never a lost cause, at least we have to remind you of injustice because it must surely bother someone or they wouldn't forget to mention it in school text books. revisionist history won't take the boood stains away. never will i stand silently as someone mentions thanksgiving(the day the colonists burned a long house to the ground during a religious celebration and killed all inside while no whites were harmed) check it on net...it sure don't make me hungry, or forget wounded knee 1 unarmed people, women w children at breast mowed down, children, old folks, or wounded knee 2 caused because of stealing by BIA and refusal to acknoledge treaties, or leonard pelitier sitting in a fed pen cause evidence to free him is security secret?ha poisioned water,raped land,stinking air,what use would this land be if returned? everything was taken, but my voice will honor the ancestors till it is silenced, only a ghost dance could cure the ill
03 bristow,04 reading,05 toronto,05 phillie,06 camden,06 dc,07 chicago,08 dc,08 camden,09 philliex2,10 bristow
eddie solo 08 dc,09 balt, 11 phillie
The Palestinians need to change becuase their methods are futile! Would anybody care to debate that?
Israel is in no position to conceed anything due to voilence inflicted on them by the Palestinians.
Yeah, I'll refute that. You're talking bollocks. Until the 1972 Munich olympics nobody had even heard of the PLO. That violent act brought their cause to the worlds attention.
And as far as Israel not being in a position to conceed anything due to Palestinian violence...that's like saying the Apartheid regime was in no position to conceed anything due to ANC violence.
Your point is completely redundant.
They hate each other so much, that they cannot fathom living together in peace.
this quote above is totally true they will never ever coexist let alone live next to each other in peace .......
Whose this 'they' that you speak of? You honestly think there are no people on either side who want peace? If so, then you're wrong. The only side that has blocked every effort at a two-state solution over the past 60 years is Israel, in cahoots with the U.S. Just take a look at the resolutions. Every single U.N resolution calling for a two-state solution has been singularly vetoed by the U.S, in defiance of world opinion.
In order to achieve peace you need to achieve balance.
What we have now is total imbalance. One side getting billions of support dumped on it, and the other side getting the basic necessities of daily life taken away from it.
This only fuels resistance which in turn fuels the conflict. It's not rocket science. Pretty much any run of the mill relationship advisor can provide this information quite readily (to those that will listen).
It's a lot like tuning a drum head actually for anyone that has ever tried it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I was about to say the same thing. They are not fighting for those things as much as they don't want to be wiped off the map.
I'm sure NC Fan would just lie down and allow his family and home to be bulldozed over or shot to death just because the people who were doing it had more power and numbers. I'm sure he would see defending his home and his very life as futile and give up. Riiight.
I respect people who try peaceful, diplomatic approaches and think it's always be the best way but there comes a time when you're forced to defend yourself or die out.
Lol, you talk about the Palestinians being wiped off the map...... give me a fuckin break. If Israel wanted to do that, it would have happened decades ago! I mean, shit they have had a few different wars in which they could have gone all the way and annialated the Palestinians to oblivion - yet they haven't.
If anything, it's the Israeli's who are under threat. The current leadership of the Palestinian territories is Hamas. Pop quiz... does anybody know what the stated goal of Hamas is???
It's the destruction of Israel. Everybody knows this... it's not even contestable. Hamas does not want a two state solution.
This is why we have problems.
It's not about figuring out how two states would work. The problem is that one side doesn't want the other to exist. They just don't have the means to make it happen.
They will fight forever until the Palestinians give up that pipe dream. Until then, they deserve what comes to them.
Lol, you talk about the Palestinians being wiped off the map...... give me a fuckin break. If Israel wanted to do that, it would have happened decades ago! I mean, shit they have had a few different wars in which they could have gone all the way and annialated the Palestinians to oblivion - yet they haven't.
If anything, it's the Israeli's who are under threat. The current leadership of the Palestinian territories is Hamas. Pop quiz... does anybody know what the stated goal of Hamas is???
It's the destruction of Israel. Everybody knows this... it's not even contestable. Hamas does not want a two state solution.
This is why we have problems.
It's not about figuring out how two states would work. The problem is that one side doesn't want the other to exist. They just don't have the means to make it happen.
They will fight forever until the Palestinians give up that pipe dream. Until then, they deserve what comes to them.
They've done everything in their power except totally wipe the Palestinians out. Look at what they have been left with. Look at how they are forced to live their life, restricted from access to the most basic of necessities, under constant attack and harassment, homes being bulldozed down whenever the Israelis feel like they might need the land they're standing on. Why, again, do they deserve this???
And you completely brushed by my point of what you would do if it were your life, your home, your family in danger....I'm really curious if you'd just let it go and give up. Would you just run off and let an outside force come in and destroy your life without some kind of resistance?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If anything, it's the Israeli's who are under threat. The current leadership of the Palestinian territories is Hamas.
The Israelis have killed more than a hundred people in the past few weeks. The Palestinians have killed less than 60 in the past 2 years... who's the threat again?
It's the destruction of Israel. Everybody knows this... it's not even contestable. Hamas does not want a two state solution.
This is why we have problems.
Oh yeah, I forgot that Israel wanted a two state solution....
ACTUALLY, Israel fucked up any chance at a two state solution thanks to their little invasion of Gaza. Now Abbas has called off talks. But you already know that, don't you?
It's not about figuring out how two states would work. The problem is that one side doesn't want the other to exist. They just don't have the means to make it happen.
The problem is one side is occupying the other, illegally.
Until then, they deserve what comes to them.
I completely agree.
Shocked? Why would you be? All these 12 year old girls deserve to be killed. All those children, and minors deserve to be murdered and jailed without a charge. The 1.5 million civilians in Gaza deserve living in these harsh conditions. The hundreds of civilians being killed, and the thousands more fearing for their lives day and night, deserve all of that. Because they had the chance to just give up their land, home, and lives, and said no. Who the fuck do they think they are to say no?
Jesus christ, NCfan, you're a fucking hopeless case.
The Israelis have killed more than a hundred people in the past few weeks. The Palestinians have killed less than 60 in the past 2 years... who's the threat again?
Oh yeah, I forgot that Israel wanted a two state solution....
ACTUALLY, Israel fucked up any chance at a two state solution thanks to their little invasion of Gaza. Now Abbas has called off talks. But you already know that, don't you?
The problem is one side is occupying the other, illegally.
I completely agree.
Shocked? Why would you be? All these 12 year old girls deserve to be killed. All those children, and minors deserve to be murdered and jailed without a charge. The 1.5 million civilians in Gaza deserve living in these harsh conditions. The hundreds of civilians being killed, and the thousands more fearing for their lives day and night, deserve all of that. Because they had the chance to just give up their land, home, and lives, and said no. Who the fuck do they think they are to say no?
Jesus christ, NCfan, you're a fucking hopeless case.
LOL, dude Israel just FUCKING GAVE Gaza back to the Palestinians.... FUCKING GAVE IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's right, they gave the entire land back.
And why did they invade a few weeks back???? Please tell me..... it's becuase some fuckin Palestinians were firing rockets into Israel.
Talk about a cycle... if Hamas would quit its bullshit we could find a political agreement.
Also, listen to the Hamas leader in hiding who came out to say "We don't fear your invasion or use of military power.. etc. etc. etc." This is exactly my point... Shut the fuck up with that kind of rhetoric.
Why isn't he saying, please do not invade and kill inocents. We are sorry for the rockets that were fired into Israel and we are working to find and bring to justice whoever did it.
Why doesn't he say this................ any guesses???????????
It's because he ENCOURAGES that kind of shit. Don't give me a bunch of lame excuses that it is justified becuase Israel did blah, blah blah....
Ending this shit means ending it. 90% of the time Israel just reacts to elements of HAMAS.
They've done everything in their power except totally wipe the Palestinians out. Look at what they have been left with. Look at how they are forced to live their life, restricted from access to the most basic of necessities, under constant attack and harassment, homes being bulldozed down whenever the Israelis feel like they might need the land they're standing on. Why, again, do they deserve this???
And you completely brushed by my point of what you would do if it were your life, your home, your family in danger....I'm really curious if you'd just let it go and give up. Would you just run off and let an outside force come in and destroy your life without some kind of resistance?
Is giving Gaza back to the Palestinians a part of that "everything in their power"???????
It really depends. For the sake of your question we'll pretend I'm a Palestinian. If I haven't been brainwashed by my family and friends, I might realize that Israel has treated and still treats me with disrespect. I would wonder what I could do to stop this.
I find out what the Israeli's wanted in order to stop fucking my and my people over. My answer would be "stop commiting acts of Terrorism against Israel".
So I would not do that. And then every time some Palestinian member of Hamas blows themselves up or fires rockets into Israel.... I would get mad at them.
And when Israel rolls in with tanks I would get mad at Israel. But I would hold more contempt for the assholes who instigated it.
I would rather lose my house than instigate a shooting conflict with a superior military. I would not want a 12 year old girls blood on my hand.
LOL, dude Israel just FUCKING GAVE Gaza back to the Palestinians.... FUCKING GAVE IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's right, they gave the entire land back.
Wow, the Israelis sure do know mercy. And for your knowledge, they've "given" Gaza "back" to the Palestinians (as if it is theirs to give anyway) before. And yet this still happened.
And why did they invade a few weeks back???? Please tell me..... it's becuase some fuckin Palestinians were firing rockets into Israel.
Oh those fuckin rockets that killed.... no one? maybe 1 or 2 people? That justifies what exactly?
Talk about a cycle... if Hamas would quit its bullshit we could find a political agreement.
what the fuck are you talking about? israel is the one who needs to quit its bullshit.
you contradict yourself so many times in your argument. At one side, the Palestinians are hopeless and a lost cause. they dont even have a military and cant even do a thing to israel to make them feel as though they need to negotiate better. and at the same fucking time you try to say oh but hamas needs to quit all that violence and killing, israel is threatened by them, etc etc bullshit bullshit.
Also, listen to the Hamas leader in hiding who came out to say "We don't fear your invasion or use of military power.. etc. etc. etc." This is exactly my point... Shut the fuck up with that kind of rhetoric.
Why isn't he saying, please do not invade and kill inocents. We are sorry for the rockets that were fired into Israel and we are working to find and bring to justice whoever did it.
Why doesn't he say this................ any guesses???????????
It's because he ENCOURAGES that kind of shit. Don't give me a bunch of lame excuses that it is justified becuase Israel did blah, blah blah....
So you can justify Israel's invasion of Gaza, but we're not allowed to justify the Palestinians' rocket attacks? because it's... lame? You don't really get this whole "debate" thing, do you?
Ending this shit means ending it. 90% of the time Israel just reacts to elements of HAMAS.
It really depends. For the sake of your question we'll pretend I'm a Palestinian. If I haven't been brainwashed by my family and friends, I might realize that Israel has treated and still treats me with disrespect. I would wonder what I could do to stop this.
I find out what the Israeli's wanted in order to stop fucking my and my people over. My answer would be "stop commiting acts of Terrorism against Israel".
So I would not do that. And then every time some Palestinian member of Hamas blows themselves up or fires rockets into Israel.... I would get mad at them.
And when Israel rolls in with tanks I would get mad at Israel. But I would hold more contempt for the assholes who instigated it.
I would rather lose my house than instigate a shooting conflict with a superior military. I would not want a 12 year old girls blood on my hand.
So essentially I would be a passive resistor.
HAHA, that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard in my life.
It really depends. For the sake of your question we'll pretend I'm a Palestinian. If I haven't been brainwashed by my family and friends, I might realize that Israel has treated and still treats me with disrespect. I would wonder what I could do to stop this.
I find out what the Israeli's wanted in order to stop fucking my and my people over. My answer would be "stop commiting acts of Terrorism against Israel".
So I would not do that. And then every time some Palestinian member of Hamas blows themselves up or fires rockets into Israel.... I would get mad at them.
And when Israel rolls in with tanks I would get mad at Israel. But I would hold more contempt for the assholes who instigated it.
I would rather lose my house than instigate a shooting conflict with a superior military. I would not want a 12 year old girls blood on my hand.
So essentially I would be a passive resistor.
To answer your question. I don't see it as too much effort on behalf of Israel to give back Gaza if they were 1) going to take and occupy more land elsewhere and 2) make life in that area a living hell by constant bombings which have left the area in deplorable conditions. It was like a gesture that wasn't actually heartfelt but more a show to gain global support. Like saying 'Hey everyone look what we did. We're the good guys' but behind the scenes they're pulling the same old shit...they stir the hornet's nest and keep poking and poking until they get stung then cry out 'See how evil they are! They stung us after we were nice enough to give them their land back!' It's bullshit. If they were seriously wanting to encourage peace then they wouldn't need to use disportionate force to terrorize an already weakened people. And they wouldn't give them Gaza only to take more elsewhere.
And as to your answer to my question, I don't think you're actually putting yourself in their shoes but rather giving an answer to back up your stance on this issue. I don't feel you're being honest with yourself. First off, you wouldn't be so calm and rational if you were being harassed and living in the conditions the palestinians are forced to. You would not simply be saying that you would do whatever Israel wanted to keep the peace and you would be more angry at your own people for lashing out. Most would be enraged with emotion and fear....which come only natural to abused and oppressed people who are living in fear for their lives, who also must suffer the agony of watching their children and loved ones be slaughtered and die without access to proper medical care or even clean water. You're just not giving an objective view on this. Take away the names Israel and Palestine...and look at this situation as if it were any two groups of people from where ever, look at them as human beings first not enemies and allies and tell me that you wouldn't fight back if you were in the group living in the same type conditions the palestinians are.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Israel continues to reward its own aggression with land. If there were no israeli settlements in the west bank they would have no need to practice apartheid in the west bank. The violent reaction is not surprising. The heavy handed israeli approach may grant brief short term security gains. But moreover it radicalizes the moderates, shrinking the number of palestinians who would adopt the approach of noted passive resisters such as Ghandi, MLK and NCfan.
An ever expanding colony of white settlers with advanced weaponry who subject them to inferior status leads to the analogy of the native american experience noted earlier in this thread. This analogy is not lost on the palestinians and certainly shapes their perceptions.
Israel continues to reward its own aggression with land. If there were no israeli settlements in the west bank they would have no need to practice apartheid in the west bank. The violent reaction is not surprising. The heavy handed israeli approach may grant brief short term security gains. But moreover it radicalizes the moderates, shrinking the number of palestinians who would adopt the approach of noted passive resisters such as Ghandi, MLK and NCfan.
An ever expanding colony of white settlers with advanced weaponry who subject them to inferior status leads to the analogy of the native american experience noted earlier in this thread. This analogy is not lost on the palestinians and certainly shapes their perceptions.
I was with ya until the trite comparison with the situation early on in North America .... Um, no. The Palestinians don't think all that much about Native Americans. They aren't running around wearing headresses in emulation of their heroes, and comparing the Isrealis to General Custer. That's ridiculous. They are more worried about meeting everyday needs, wondering about getting hit by a sniper or blown up by an aerial attack. The Palestinians are in many ways an oppressed people, but they themselves don't really care that much about our colonial past. That's you guys attributing your own perspective to them. They'd probably laugh if they knew that so many people here have yet to get over the conquest of North America, actually.
I was with ya until the trite comparison with the situation early on in North America .... Um, no. The Palestinians don't think all that much about Native Americans. They aren't running around wearing headresses in emulation of their heroes, and comparing the Isrealis to General Custer. That's ridiculous. They are more worried about meeting everyday needs, wondering about getting hit by a sniper or blown up by an aerial attack. The Palestinians are in many ways an oppressed people, but they themselves don't really care that much about our colonial past. That's you guys attributing your own perspective to them. They'd probably laugh if they knew that so many people here have yet to get over the conquest of North America, actually.
I think he was just saying how the native american analogy applies to the palestinians...not they they model their approach after them. Saying that they are in a similar predicament of struggle against a much larger oppressing force.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I was with ya until the trite comparison with the situation early on in North America .... Um, no. The Palestinians don't think all that much about Native Americans. They aren't running around wearing headresses in emulation of their heroes, and comparing the Isrealis to General Custer. That's ridiculous. They are more worried about meeting everyday needs, wondering about getting hit by a sniper or blown up by an aerial attack. The Palestinians are in many ways an oppressed people, but they themselves don't really care that much about our colonial past. That's you guys attributing your own perspective to them. They'd probably laugh if they knew that so many people here have yet to get over the conquest of North America, actually.
Palestinians protesting during a visit by Condi Rice
So, we are who we are, as the Mississippi flows,
and what remains from yesterday is still ours--
but the color of the sky has changed,
the sea to the East has changed.
O white master, Lord of the horses,
what do you want from those making their way
to the night woods?
Our pastures are sacred, our spirits inspired,
the stars are luminous words where our fable
is legible from the beginning to end
if only you'll lift up your eyes:
born between water and fire,
reborn in clouds on an azure shore
after Judgement day...
Don't kill the grass any more,
it possess a soul in us that could
shelter the soul of the earth.
Tamer of horses, teach your horse
to ask forgiveness of nature's soul
for the way you've treated our trees:
O Sister tree,
look how they've tortured you
the way they've tortured me;
never ask forgiveness
for the woodcutter whose axe felled
both your mother and mine...
2
The white man will never understand the ancient words
here in spirits roaming free
between sky and trees.
Let Columbus scour the seas to find India,
it's his right!
He can call our ghosts the names of spices,
he can call us Red Indians,
he can fiddle with his compass to correct his course,
twist all the errors of the North wind,
but outside the narrow world to his map
he can't believe that all men are born equal
the same as air and water,
the same as people in Barcelona,
except that they happen to worship Nature's God in everthing
and not gold.
Columbus was free to look for a language
he couldn't find here,
to look for gold in the skulls of our ancestors.
He took his fill from the flesh of our living
and our dead.
So why is he bent on carrying out his deadly war
even from the grave?
When we have nothing left to give
but a few ruinous trinkets, a few tiny feathers to
embroider our lakes?
All told,
you killed over seventy million hearts,
more than enough for you to return from slaughter
as kind on the throne of a new age.
Isn't it about time, stranger,
for us to meet face to face in the same age,
both of us strangers to the same land,
meeting at the tip of an abyss?
We have what is ours and
we have what is yours of the sky.
Yours air and water, such as we have.
Ours pebbles, such as we have,
yours iron, such as you have.
In the shadow domain, let us share the light.
Take what you need of the night
but leave us a few stars to bury our celestial dead.
Take what you need of the sea
but leave us a few waves in which to catch our fish.
Take all the gold of the earth and sun
but leave the land of our names to us.
Then go back, stranger.
Search for India once more!
3
Our names: branching leaves of divine speech,
birds that soar higher than a gun.
You who come from beyond the sea, bent on war,
don't cut down the tree of our names,
don't gallop your flaming horses across
the open plains.
You have your god and we have ours,
you have your religion and we have ours.
Don't buy your God
in books that back up your claim of
your land over our land,
don't appoint your God to be a mere
courtier in the palace of the King.
Take the rose of our dreams
and see what we've seen of joy.
Sleep in the shade of our willows
and start to fly like a dove--
this, after all, is what our ancestors did
when they flew away in peace
and returned in peace.
You won't remember leaving the Mediterranean,
eternity's solitude in the middle of a forest
rather than on the edge of a cliff.
What you lack is the wisdom of defeat,
a lost war, a rock standing firm
in the rushof time's furious river,
an hour of reverie for a necessary sky of dust to
ripen inside,
an hour of hesitation between one path and another.
One day Euripides will be missing
as well as the hymns of Canaan and Babylon,
Solomon's Song of Songs for Shulamith
and the yearning lily of the valley.
What you white men need will be the memory of
how to tame the horses of madness,
hearts polished by pumice in a flurry of violins.
All this you will need,
as well as a hesitant gun.
(But if you must kill, white man, don't slay
the creatures that befriended us.
Don't slaughter our past.)
You will need a treaty with our ghosts on those
sterile winter nights,
a less bright sun, a less full moon
for the crime to appear
less glamorous on the screen.
So take your time
as you dismember God.
4
We know what this elegant enigma conceals from us:
a heaven dies.
A willow strays, wind-footed,
a beast establishes its kingdom
in hollows of wounded space,
ocean-waters drench the wood of our doors with salt,
earth's a primordial burden heavier than before
but similar to something we've known since the
beginning of time.
Winds will recite our beginning and our end
though our present bleeds
and our days are buried in the ashes of legend.
We know that Athens is not ours
and can identify the color of the days
from puff clouds or rising smoke.
But Athens isn't yours as well,
yet we know what mighty iron is preparing for us
for the gods that failed
to defend the salt in our bread.
We know that truth is stronger than righteousness,
and that times changed
when the technology of weapons changed.
Who will raise our voices to the rainless clouds?
Who will rinse the light after we're gone?
Who will tend our temples,
who will safeguard our traditions
from the clash of steel?
“We bring you civilization,” said the stranger.
“We're the masters of time
come to inherit this land of yours.
March in Indian file so we can tally you
on the face of the lake, corpse by corpse.
Keep marching, so the Gospels may thrive!
We want God all to ourselves
because the best Indians are dead Indians
in the eyes of the Lord.”
The Lord is white and the day is white.
You have your world and we have ours.
What the stranger says is truly strange.
He digs a well deep in the earth to bury the sky.
Truly strange, what the stranger says!
He hunts down our children, as well as butterflies.
O stranger, what promises do you make to our garden,
zinc flowers prettier than ours?
Fine.
But do you know that a deer
will never approach grass that's been
stained with our blood?
Buffalos are our brothers and sisters, as well as
everything that grows.
Don't dig any deeper!
Don't pierce the shell of the turtle that carries our grandmother
the earth on its back!
Our trees are her hair,
and we adorn ourselves with her blooms.
“There's no death on earth,”
so don't break her delicate formation!
Don't bruise the earth, don't smash
the smooth mirror of her orchards,
don't startle her, don't murder the river-waisted one
whose grandchildren we are.
We'll be gone soon enough.
Take our blood,
but leave the earth alone:
God's most elaborate
writing on the face of the waters,
for His sake and ours.
We still hear our ancestors' voices on the wind,
we listen to their pulse in the flowering trees.
This earth is our grandmother, each stone sacred,
and the hut where gods dwelt with us
and stars lit up our nights of prayer.
We roamed naked and walked barefoot to touch
the souls of the stones
so that the spirit or air would unfold us in women
who would replenish nature's gifts.
Our history was her history.
To endure our life
go away and come back.
Return the spirits,
one by one,
to the earth.
We keep the memory of our loved ones in jars,
like oil and salt, whose names we tied
to wings of water birds.
We were here first,
no ceiling to separate our blue doors from the sky,
no horses to graze where our deer used to graze,
no strangers bursting in on the night of our wives.
O give the wind a flute to weep for the people
of this wounded place,
and tomorrow to weep for you.
And tomorrow to weep for you.
5
Tending our last fires
we fail to acknowledge your greetings.
Don't write commandments
from your new steel god for us.
Don't demand peace treaties from the dead.
There's no one left to greet you in peace,
which is nowhere to be seen.
We lived and flourished before the onslaught of
English guns, French wine and influenza,
living in harmony side by side with the Deer People,
learning our oral history by heart.
We brought you tidings of innocence and daisies.
But you have your god and we have ours.
You have your past and we have ours.
Time is a river
blurred by the tears we gaze through.
But don't you ever
memorize a few lines of poetry, perhaps,
to restrain yourself from massacre?
Weren't you born of a woman?
Didn't you suckle the milk of longing
from your mother as we did?
Didn't you attach paper wings to your shoulders
to chase swallows as we did?
We brought you tidings of the Spring.
(Don't point your guns at us!)
We can exchange gifts, we can sing:
My people were here once, then they died here...
Chestnut trees hide their souls here.
My people will return in the air,
in water
in light...
Take my motherland by the sword!
I refuse to sign a treaty between victim and killer.
I refuse to sign a bill of sale
that takes possession
of so much as one inch of my weed patch,
of so much as one inch of my cornfield
even if it's my last salutation to the sun!
As I wade into the river wrapped in my name only
I know I'm returning to my mother's bosom
so that you, white master, can enter your Age.
Enter your brutal statues of liberty over my corpse.
Engrave your iron crosses on my stony shadow,
for soon I will rise to the height of the song
sung by those multitudes suicided by their
dispersion through history
at a mass where our voices will soar like birds:
Here strangers won
over salt and sea mixed with clouds.
Here strangers won
over corn husks within us
as they laid down their cables for
lightning and electicity.
Here's where the grieving eagle
dived to his death.
Here's where strangers won over us
leaving us nothing for the New Age.
Here our bodies evaporate, cloud by cloud, into space.
Here our spirits glow, star by star, in the sky of song.
6
A long time will have to go by before our
present becomes our past, just like us.
We will face our death, but first
we'll defend the trees we wear.
We'll venerate the bell of night, the moon
hanging over our shacks.
We'll defend our leaping deer,
the clay of our jars, the feathers
in the wings of our last songs.
Soon you'll raise your world over ours,
blazing a trail from our graveyards to a satellite.
This is the Iron Age: distilled from a lump of coal,
champagne bubbling for the mighty!
There are dead and there are colonies.
There are dead and there are bulldozers.
There are dead and there are hospitals.
There are dead and there are radar screens
to observe the dead
as they die more than once in this life,
screens to observe the dead who live on after death
as well as those who die
to lift the earth above all that has died.
O white master, where are you taking my people
and yours?
Into what abyss
is this robot bristling with aircraft carriers and jets
consigning the earth?
To what fathomless pit
will you decend?
It's your to decide.
A new Rome, a technological Sparta and an
ideology for the insane...
but we'd rather depart from an Age
our minds can't accept.
Once a people,
now we'd rather flock to the land of birds.
We'll take a peek at our homeland through stones,
glimpse it through openings in clouds,
through the speech of stars,
through the air suspended above lakes,
between soft tassel fringes in ears of corn.
We'll emerge from the flower of the grave.
We'll lean out of the poplar's leaves
of all that besieges you, O white man,
of all the dead who are still dying,
both those who live and those
who return to tell the tale.
Let's give the earth enough time to tell
the whole truth about your and us.
The whole truth about us.
The whole truth about you.
7
In rooms you build,
the dead are already asleep.
Over bridges you construct,
the dead are already passing.
There are dead who light up the night
of butterflies,
and the dead who come at dawn
to drink your tea
as peaceful as on the day your
guns mowed them down.
O you who are guests in this place,
leave a few chairs empty
for your hosts to read out
the conditions for peace
in a treaty with the dead.
October 1992 (From: Eleven Planets. Translated by Sargon Boulos for Mahmour Darwish: The Adam of Two Edens. Syracuse UP, 2000. 129-145)
Wow, the Israelis sure do know mercy. And for your knowledge, they've "given" Gaza "back" to the Palestinians (as if it is theirs to give anyway) before. And yet this still happened.
Oh those fuckin rockets that killed.... no one? maybe 1 or 2 people? That justifies what exactly?
what the fuck are you talking about? israel is the one who needs to quit its bullshit.
you contradict yourself so many times in your argument. At one side, the Palestinians are hopeless and a lost cause. they dont even have a military and cant even do a thing to israel to make them feel as though they need to negotiate better. and at the same fucking time you try to say oh but hamas needs to quit all that violence and killing, israel is threatened by them, etc etc bullshit bullshit.
So you can justify Israel's invasion of Gaza, but we're not allowed to justify the Palestinians' rocket attacks? because it's... lame? You don't really get this whole "debate" thing, do you?
Prove it.
I'm not trying to justify Israel's invasion of Gaza. In fact, I think it is wrong. My point is to explain why it happened.
Excuse me for thinking it is complete bullshit for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel, WHICH THEY KNOW WILL DRAW A FORCEFUL RESPONSE, and then claim the victim card when Israel rolls in with a superior military and lays waste.
If Isreal invaded Gaza for no reason, then I would be screaming up and down that they are in the wrong. But fuck Hamas for giving Israel a reason in the first place.
You play with fire, you get burned....
Agreed with what was posted before... "A people should know when they are conquered".
Palestine is fucking conquered, so give it up already and concede to a cease-fire and negotiate a two state solution.
Excuse me for thinking it is complete bullshit for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel, WHICH THEY KNOW WILL DRAW A FORCEFUL RESPONSE, and then claim the victim card when Israel rolls in with a superior military and lays waste.
This maybe a stupid question and maybe someone already asked it :
considering that some of the attacks perpetrated by the hamas are not really in Irael but in Israeli colonies established on palestinian soil (as defined by international law), wouldn't this be viewed as resistance rather than aggression?
This maybe a stupid question and maybe someone already asked it :
considering that some of the attacks perpetrated by the hamas are not really in Irael but in Israeli colonies established on palestinian soil (as defined by international law), wouldn't this be viewed as resistance rather than aggression?
Either way, it's a self-defeating thing for Hamas to do. I'm not saying the Palestinians should just roll over and not resist. But acts of violence are just self-defeating at this point.
Israel acts like a big bully. So why do you want to antogonize the bully and instagate violence? This is just pissin in the wind on the part of the Palestinians.
A resolution is easily attainable, the Palestinians and their leadership just have to accept the fact that the terms will not be as favorable as they like. Such is the way of the world. They fought at least 4 wars, and lost them all. This is only the natural order of things.
I'm not saying it is right or fair. But I do believe this is the way to peace moving forward. This will end when the Palestinians value progress and peace more than lost pride and religious extremism.
Either way, it's a self-defeating thing for Hamas to do. I'm not saying the Palestinians should just roll over and not resist. But acts of violence are just self-defeating at this point.
Israel acts like a big bully. So why do you want to antogonize the bully and instagate violence? This is just pissin in the wind on the part of the Palestinians.
A resolution is easily attainable, the Palestinians and their leadership just have to accept the fact that the terms will not be as favorable as they like. Such is the way of the world. They fought at least 4 wars, and lost them all. This is only the natural order of things.
I'm not saying it is right or fair. But I do believe this is the way to peace moving forward. This will end when the Palestinians value progress and peace more than lost pride and religious extremism.
Your line of reasoning underscores the perception that Israel doesn't want peace.
Your line of reasoning underscores the perception that Israel doesn't want peace.
Please tell me why Israel does not want peace? Please explain what advantage a shooting war or continued military operations against the Palestinians gains them?
It's pretty well recognized that Isreal wants to negotiate a two-state solution, yet they have no counter part to negotiate with. The Palestinian authority is in shambles after a bloody civil war last year between Hamas and Fatah.
Hamas has now taken control of Gaza, and what have they done since? They have their own autonomous region that shares a border with Eygpt and a pristine coastline on the Medeteranean. Gaza has plenty of resources and should have no trouble obtaining hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars from oil rich Arab neighbors who would like to see the Palestinians thrive.
Where are the signs of civil society in Gaza? There have been no Isrealis soldiers there, sans the recent invasion, in two years!
Actually, it is Hamas, not Israel who benefits from tension and conflict. If the people of Gaza put their effort and resources towards building a civil society and leaving Isreal alone - then not many people would be interested in firing rockets into Isreal (as this would be counteractive to their objectives)
Who wants to build infasctructure and bring order, while inviting the Isrealis to drop bombs on it????? It just doesn't make sense.
If the people of Gaza were to prosper, they would turn away from the objectibves of Hamas (constant war with Israel).
Comments
christ, i shouldn't even waste my time with you.
And yeah, pure hate, that's why the palestinians are fighting back. it's the only logical explanation.
I was about to say the same thing. They are not fighting for those things as much as they don't want to be wiped off the map.
I'm sure NC Fan would just lie down and allow his family and home to be bulldozed over or shot to death just because the people who were doing it had more power and numbers. I'm sure he would see defending his home and his very life as futile and give up. Riiight.
I respect people who try peaceful, diplomatic approaches and think it's always be the best way but there comes a time when you're forced to defend yourself or die out.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
push me and i will resist...
no justice no peace...
Never say die... and they won't. What doesn't kill you altogether makes you stronger
It's a nice game of ping pong....a mouse v.s. an elephant...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
eddie solo 08 dc,09 balt, 11 phillie
eddie solo 08 dc,09 balt, 11 phillie
Yeah, I'll refute that. You're talking bollocks. Until the 1972 Munich olympics nobody had even heard of the PLO. That violent act brought their cause to the worlds attention.
And as far as Israel not being in a position to conceed anything due to Palestinian violence...that's like saying the Apartheid regime was in no position to conceed anything due to ANC violence.
Your point is completely redundant.
Whose this 'they' that you speak of? You honestly think there are no people on either side who want peace? If so, then you're wrong. The only side that has blocked every effort at a two-state solution over the past 60 years is Israel, in cahoots with the U.S. Just take a look at the resolutions. Every single U.N resolution calling for a two-state solution has been singularly vetoed by the U.S, in defiance of world opinion.
What we have now is total imbalance. One side getting billions of support dumped on it, and the other side getting the basic necessities of daily life taken away from it.
This only fuels resistance which in turn fuels the conflict. It's not rocket science. Pretty much any run of the mill relationship advisor can provide this information quite readily (to those that will listen).
It's a lot like tuning a drum head actually for anyone that has ever tried it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Lol, you talk about the Palestinians being wiped off the map...... give me a fuckin break. If Israel wanted to do that, it would have happened decades ago! I mean, shit they have had a few different wars in which they could have gone all the way and annialated the Palestinians to oblivion - yet they haven't.
If anything, it's the Israeli's who are under threat. The current leadership of the Palestinian territories is Hamas. Pop quiz... does anybody know what the stated goal of Hamas is???
It's the destruction of Israel. Everybody knows this... it's not even contestable. Hamas does not want a two state solution.
This is why we have problems.
It's not about figuring out how two states would work. The problem is that one side doesn't want the other to exist. They just don't have the means to make it happen.
They will fight forever until the Palestinians give up that pipe dream. Until then, they deserve what comes to them.
They've done everything in their power except totally wipe the Palestinians out. Look at what they have been left with. Look at how they are forced to live their life, restricted from access to the most basic of necessities, under constant attack and harassment, homes being bulldozed down whenever the Israelis feel like they might need the land they're standing on. Why, again, do they deserve this???
And you completely brushed by my point of what you would do if it were your life, your home, your family in danger....I'm really curious if you'd just let it go and give up. Would you just run off and let an outside force come in and destroy your life without some kind of resistance?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Oh yeah, I forgot that Israel wanted a two state solution....
ACTUALLY, Israel fucked up any chance at a two state solution thanks to their little invasion of Gaza. Now Abbas has called off talks. But you already know that, don't you?
The problem is one side is occupying the other, illegally.
I completely agree.
Shocked? Why would you be? All these 12 year old girls deserve to be killed. All those children, and minors deserve to be murdered and jailed without a charge. The 1.5 million civilians in Gaza deserve living in these harsh conditions. The hundreds of civilians being killed, and the thousands more fearing for their lives day and night, deserve all of that. Because they had the chance to just give up their land, home, and lives, and said no. Who the fuck do they think they are to say no?
Jesus christ, NCfan, you're a fucking hopeless case.
LOL, dude Israel just FUCKING GAVE Gaza back to the Palestinians.... FUCKING GAVE IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's right, they gave the entire land back.
And why did they invade a few weeks back???? Please tell me..... it's becuase some fuckin Palestinians were firing rockets into Israel.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-gaza1mar01,1,4349833.story
Talk about a cycle... if Hamas would quit its bullshit we could find a political agreement.
Also, listen to the Hamas leader in hiding who came out to say "We don't fear your invasion or use of military power.. etc. etc. etc." This is exactly my point... Shut the fuck up with that kind of rhetoric.
Why isn't he saying, please do not invade and kill inocents. We are sorry for the rockets that were fired into Israel and we are working to find and bring to justice whoever did it.
Why doesn't he say this................ any guesses???????????
It's because he ENCOURAGES that kind of shit. Don't give me a bunch of lame excuses that it is justified becuase Israel did blah, blah blah....
Ending this shit means ending it. 90% of the time Israel just reacts to elements of HAMAS.
Is giving Gaza back to the Palestinians a part of that "everything in their power"???????
Answer my question first.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It really depends. For the sake of your question we'll pretend I'm a Palestinian. If I haven't been brainwashed by my family and friends, I might realize that Israel has treated and still treats me with disrespect. I would wonder what I could do to stop this.
I find out what the Israeli's wanted in order to stop fucking my and my people over. My answer would be "stop commiting acts of Terrorism against Israel".
So I would not do that. And then every time some Palestinian member of Hamas blows themselves up or fires rockets into Israel.... I would get mad at them.
And when Israel rolls in with tanks I would get mad at Israel. But I would hold more contempt for the assholes who instigated it.
I would rather lose my house than instigate a shooting conflict with a superior military. I would not want a 12 year old girls blood on my hand.
So essentially I would be a passive resistor.
Oh those fuckin rockets that killed.... no one? maybe 1 or 2 people? That justifies what exactly?
what the fuck are you talking about? israel is the one who needs to quit its bullshit.
you contradict yourself so many times in your argument. At one side, the Palestinians are hopeless and a lost cause. they dont even have a military and cant even do a thing to israel to make them feel as though they need to negotiate better. and at the same fucking time you try to say oh but hamas needs to quit all that violence and killing, israel is threatened by them, etc etc bullshit bullshit.
So you can justify Israel's invasion of Gaza, but we're not allowed to justify the Palestinians' rocket attacks? because it's... lame? You don't really get this whole "debate" thing, do you?
Prove it.
To answer your question. I don't see it as too much effort on behalf of Israel to give back Gaza if they were 1) going to take and occupy more land elsewhere and 2) make life in that area a living hell by constant bombings which have left the area in deplorable conditions. It was like a gesture that wasn't actually heartfelt but more a show to gain global support. Like saying 'Hey everyone look what we did. We're the good guys' but behind the scenes they're pulling the same old shit...they stir the hornet's nest and keep poking and poking until they get stung then cry out 'See how evil they are! They stung us after we were nice enough to give them their land back!' It's bullshit. If they were seriously wanting to encourage peace then they wouldn't need to use disportionate force to terrorize an already weakened people. And they wouldn't give them Gaza only to take more elsewhere.
And as to your answer to my question, I don't think you're actually putting yourself in their shoes but rather giving an answer to back up your stance on this issue. I don't feel you're being honest with yourself. First off, you wouldn't be so calm and rational if you were being harassed and living in the conditions the palestinians are forced to. You would not simply be saying that you would do whatever Israel wanted to keep the peace and you would be more angry at your own people for lashing out. Most would be enraged with emotion and fear....which come only natural to abused and oppressed people who are living in fear for their lives, who also must suffer the agony of watching their children and loved ones be slaughtered and die without access to proper medical care or even clean water. You're just not giving an objective view on this. Take away the names Israel and Palestine...and look at this situation as if it were any two groups of people from where ever, look at them as human beings first not enemies and allies and tell me that you wouldn't fight back if you were in the group living in the same type conditions the palestinians are.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
An ever expanding colony of white settlers with advanced weaponry who subject them to inferior status leads to the analogy of the native american experience noted earlier in this thread. This analogy is not lost on the palestinians and certainly shapes their perceptions.
I was with ya until the trite comparison with the situation early on in North America .... Um, no. The Palestinians don't think all that much about Native Americans. They aren't running around wearing headresses in emulation of their heroes, and comparing the Isrealis to General Custer. That's ridiculous. They are more worried about meeting everyday needs, wondering about getting hit by a sniper or blown up by an aerial attack. The Palestinians are in many ways an oppressed people, but they themselves don't really care that much about our colonial past. That's you guys attributing your own perspective to them. They'd probably laugh if they knew that so many people here have yet to get over the conquest of North America, actually.
"A people should know when they are conquered."
"Would you? Would I?"
I think he was just saying how the native american analogy applies to the palestinians...not they they model their approach after them. Saying that they are in a similar predicament of struggle against a much larger oppressing force.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Palestinians protesting during a visit by Condi Rice
http://bp1.blogger.com/_1tk0c4Dzgbs/Ra2WpCrS8FI/AAAAAAAAAQY/QjhQ2_ygO7M/s1600-h/Palindians.jpg
Words of a Palestinian poet:
Speech of the Red Indian
Mahmoud Darwish
1
So, we are who we are, as the Mississippi flows,
and what remains from yesterday is still ours--
but the color of the sky has changed,
the sea to the East has changed.
O white master, Lord of the horses,
what do you want from those making their way
to the night woods?
Our pastures are sacred, our spirits inspired,
the stars are luminous words where our fable
is legible from the beginning to end
if only you'll lift up your eyes:
born between water and fire,
reborn in clouds on an azure shore
after Judgement day...
Don't kill the grass any more,
it possess a soul in us that could
shelter the soul of the earth.
Tamer of horses, teach your horse
to ask forgiveness of nature's soul
for the way you've treated our trees:
O Sister tree,
look how they've tortured you
the way they've tortured me;
never ask forgiveness
for the woodcutter whose axe felled
both your mother and mine...
2
The white man will never understand the ancient words
here in spirits roaming free
between sky and trees.
Let Columbus scour the seas to find India,
it's his right!
He can call our ghosts the names of spices,
he can call us Red Indians,
he can fiddle with his compass to correct his course,
twist all the errors of the North wind,
but outside the narrow world to his map
he can't believe that all men are born equal
the same as air and water,
the same as people in Barcelona,
except that they happen to worship Nature's God in everthing
and not gold.
Columbus was free to look for a language
he couldn't find here,
to look for gold in the skulls of our ancestors.
He took his fill from the flesh of our living
and our dead.
So why is he bent on carrying out his deadly war
even from the grave?
When we have nothing left to give
but a few ruinous trinkets, a few tiny feathers to
embroider our lakes?
All told,
you killed over seventy million hearts,
more than enough for you to return from slaughter
as kind on the throne of a new age.
Isn't it about time, stranger,
for us to meet face to face in the same age,
both of us strangers to the same land,
meeting at the tip of an abyss?
We have what is ours and
we have what is yours of the sky.
Yours air and water, such as we have.
Ours pebbles, such as we have,
yours iron, such as you have.
In the shadow domain, let us share the light.
Take what you need of the night
but leave us a few stars to bury our celestial dead.
Take what you need of the sea
but leave us a few waves in which to catch our fish.
Take all the gold of the earth and sun
but leave the land of our names to us.
Then go back, stranger.
Search for India once more!
3
Our names: branching leaves of divine speech,
birds that soar higher than a gun.
You who come from beyond the sea, bent on war,
don't cut down the tree of our names,
don't gallop your flaming horses across
the open plains.
You have your god and we have ours,
you have your religion and we have ours.
Don't buy your God
in books that back up your claim of
your land over our land,
don't appoint your God to be a mere
courtier in the palace of the King.
Take the rose of our dreams
and see what we've seen of joy.
Sleep in the shade of our willows
and start to fly like a dove--
this, after all, is what our ancestors did
when they flew away in peace
and returned in peace.
You won't remember leaving the Mediterranean,
eternity's solitude in the middle of a forest
rather than on the edge of a cliff.
What you lack is the wisdom of defeat,
a lost war, a rock standing firm
in the rushof time's furious river,
an hour of reverie for a necessary sky of dust to
ripen inside,
an hour of hesitation between one path and another.
One day Euripides will be missing
as well as the hymns of Canaan and Babylon,
Solomon's Song of Songs for Shulamith
and the yearning lily of the valley.
What you white men need will be the memory of
how to tame the horses of madness,
hearts polished by pumice in a flurry of violins.
All this you will need,
as well as a hesitant gun.
(But if you must kill, white man, don't slay
the creatures that befriended us.
Don't slaughter our past.)
You will need a treaty with our ghosts on those
sterile winter nights,
a less bright sun, a less full moon
for the crime to appear
less glamorous on the screen.
So take your time
as you dismember God.
4
We know what this elegant enigma conceals from us:
a heaven dies.
A willow strays, wind-footed,
a beast establishes its kingdom
in hollows of wounded space,
ocean-waters drench the wood of our doors with salt,
earth's a primordial burden heavier than before
but similar to something we've known since the
beginning of time.
Winds will recite our beginning and our end
though our present bleeds
and our days are buried in the ashes of legend.
We know that Athens is not ours
and can identify the color of the days
from puff clouds or rising smoke.
But Athens isn't yours as well,
yet we know what mighty iron is preparing for us
for the gods that failed
to defend the salt in our bread.
We know that truth is stronger than righteousness,
and that times changed
when the technology of weapons changed.
Who will raise our voices to the rainless clouds?
Who will rinse the light after we're gone?
Who will tend our temples,
who will safeguard our traditions
from the clash of steel?
“We bring you civilization,” said the stranger.
“We're the masters of time
come to inherit this land of yours.
March in Indian file so we can tally you
on the face of the lake, corpse by corpse.
Keep marching, so the Gospels may thrive!
We want God all to ourselves
because the best Indians are dead Indians
in the eyes of the Lord.”
The Lord is white and the day is white.
You have your world and we have ours.
What the stranger says is truly strange.
He digs a well deep in the earth to bury the sky.
Truly strange, what the stranger says!
He hunts down our children, as well as butterflies.
O stranger, what promises do you make to our garden,
zinc flowers prettier than ours?
Fine.
But do you know that a deer
will never approach grass that's been
stained with our blood?
Buffalos are our brothers and sisters, as well as
everything that grows.
Don't dig any deeper!
Don't pierce the shell of the turtle that carries our grandmother
the earth on its back!
Our trees are her hair,
and we adorn ourselves with her blooms.
“There's no death on earth,”
so don't break her delicate formation!
Don't bruise the earth, don't smash
the smooth mirror of her orchards,
don't startle her, don't murder the river-waisted one
whose grandchildren we are.
We'll be gone soon enough.
Take our blood,
but leave the earth alone:
God's most elaborate
writing on the face of the waters,
for His sake and ours.
We still hear our ancestors' voices on the wind,
we listen to their pulse in the flowering trees.
This earth is our grandmother, each stone sacred,
and the hut where gods dwelt with us
and stars lit up our nights of prayer.
We roamed naked and walked barefoot to touch
the souls of the stones
so that the spirit or air would unfold us in women
who would replenish nature's gifts.
Our history was her history.
To endure our life
go away and come back.
Return the spirits,
one by one,
to the earth.
We keep the memory of our loved ones in jars,
like oil and salt, whose names we tied
to wings of water birds.
We were here first,
no ceiling to separate our blue doors from the sky,
no horses to graze where our deer used to graze,
no strangers bursting in on the night of our wives.
O give the wind a flute to weep for the people
of this wounded place,
and tomorrow to weep for you.
And tomorrow to weep for you.
5
Tending our last fires
we fail to acknowledge your greetings.
Don't write commandments
from your new steel god for us.
Don't demand peace treaties from the dead.
There's no one left to greet you in peace,
which is nowhere to be seen.
We lived and flourished before the onslaught of
English guns, French wine and influenza,
living in harmony side by side with the Deer People,
learning our oral history by heart.
We brought you tidings of innocence and daisies.
But you have your god and we have ours.
You have your past and we have ours.
Time is a river
blurred by the tears we gaze through.
But don't you ever
memorize a few lines of poetry, perhaps,
to restrain yourself from massacre?
Weren't you born of a woman?
Didn't you suckle the milk of longing
from your mother as we did?
Didn't you attach paper wings to your shoulders
to chase swallows as we did?
We brought you tidings of the Spring.
(Don't point your guns at us!)
We can exchange gifts, we can sing:
My people were here once, then they died here...
Chestnut trees hide their souls here.
My people will return in the air,
in water
in light...
Take my motherland by the sword!
I refuse to sign a treaty between victim and killer.
I refuse to sign a bill of sale
that takes possession
of so much as one inch of my weed patch,
of so much as one inch of my cornfield
even if it's my last salutation to the sun!
As I wade into the river wrapped in my name only
I know I'm returning to my mother's bosom
so that you, white master, can enter your Age.
Enter your brutal statues of liberty over my corpse.
Engrave your iron crosses on my stony shadow,
for soon I will rise to the height of the song
sung by those multitudes suicided by their
dispersion through history
at a mass where our voices will soar like birds:
Here strangers won
over salt and sea mixed with clouds.
Here strangers won
over corn husks within us
as they laid down their cables for
lightning and electicity.
Here's where the grieving eagle
dived to his death.
Here's where strangers won over us
leaving us nothing for the New Age.
Here our bodies evaporate, cloud by cloud, into space.
Here our spirits glow, star by star, in the sky of song.
6
A long time will have to go by before our
present becomes our past, just like us.
We will face our death, but first
we'll defend the trees we wear.
We'll venerate the bell of night, the moon
hanging over our shacks.
We'll defend our leaping deer,
the clay of our jars, the feathers
in the wings of our last songs.
Soon you'll raise your world over ours,
blazing a trail from our graveyards to a satellite.
This is the Iron Age: distilled from a lump of coal,
champagne bubbling for the mighty!
There are dead and there are colonies.
There are dead and there are bulldozers.
There are dead and there are hospitals.
There are dead and there are radar screens
to observe the dead
as they die more than once in this life,
screens to observe the dead who live on after death
as well as those who die
to lift the earth above all that has died.
O white master, where are you taking my people
and yours?
Into what abyss
is this robot bristling with aircraft carriers and jets
consigning the earth?
To what fathomless pit
will you decend?
It's your to decide.
A new Rome, a technological Sparta and an
ideology for the insane...
but we'd rather depart from an Age
our minds can't accept.
Once a people,
now we'd rather flock to the land of birds.
We'll take a peek at our homeland through stones,
glimpse it through openings in clouds,
through the speech of stars,
through the air suspended above lakes,
between soft tassel fringes in ears of corn.
We'll emerge from the flower of the grave.
We'll lean out of the poplar's leaves
of all that besieges you, O white man,
of all the dead who are still dying,
both those who live and those
who return to tell the tale.
Let's give the earth enough time to tell
the whole truth about your and us.
The whole truth about us.
The whole truth about you.
7
In rooms you build,
the dead are already asleep.
Over bridges you construct,
the dead are already passing.
There are dead who light up the night
of butterflies,
and the dead who come at dawn
to drink your tea
as peaceful as on the day your
guns mowed them down.
O you who are guests in this place,
leave a few chairs empty
for your hosts to read out
the conditions for peace
in a treaty with the dead.
October 1992 (From: Eleven Planets. Translated by Sargon Boulos for Mahmour Darwish: The Adam of Two Edens. Syracuse UP, 2000. 129-145)
I'm not trying to justify Israel's invasion of Gaza. In fact, I think it is wrong. My point is to explain why it happened.
Excuse me for thinking it is complete bullshit for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel, WHICH THEY KNOW WILL DRAW A FORCEFUL RESPONSE, and then claim the victim card when Israel rolls in with a superior military and lays waste.
If Isreal invaded Gaza for no reason, then I would be screaming up and down that they are in the wrong. But fuck Hamas for giving Israel a reason in the first place.
You play with fire, you get burned....
Agreed with what was posted before... "A people should know when they are conquered".
Palestine is fucking conquered, so give it up already and concede to a cease-fire and negotiate a two state solution.
This maybe a stupid question and maybe someone already asked it :
considering that some of the attacks perpetrated by the hamas are not really in Irael but in Israeli colonies established on palestinian soil (as defined by international law), wouldn't this be viewed as resistance rather than aggression?
Either way, it's a self-defeating thing for Hamas to do. I'm not saying the Palestinians should just roll over and not resist. But acts of violence are just self-defeating at this point.
Israel acts like a big bully. So why do you want to antogonize the bully and instagate violence? This is just pissin in the wind on the part of the Palestinians.
A resolution is easily attainable, the Palestinians and their leadership just have to accept the fact that the terms will not be as favorable as they like. Such is the way of the world. They fought at least 4 wars, and lost them all. This is only the natural order of things.
I'm not saying it is right or fair. But I do believe this is the way to peace moving forward. This will end when the Palestinians value progress and peace more than lost pride and religious extremism.
Your line of reasoning underscores the perception that Israel doesn't want peace.
Please tell me why Israel does not want peace? Please explain what advantage a shooting war or continued military operations against the Palestinians gains them?
It's pretty well recognized that Isreal wants to negotiate a two-state solution, yet they have no counter part to negotiate with. The Palestinian authority is in shambles after a bloody civil war last year between Hamas and Fatah.
Hamas has now taken control of Gaza, and what have they done since? They have their own autonomous region that shares a border with Eygpt and a pristine coastline on the Medeteranean. Gaza has plenty of resources and should have no trouble obtaining hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars from oil rich Arab neighbors who would like to see the Palestinians thrive.
Where are the signs of civil society in Gaza? There have been no Isrealis soldiers there, sans the recent invasion, in two years!
Actually, it is Hamas, not Israel who benefits from tension and conflict. If the people of Gaza put their effort and resources towards building a civil society and leaving Isreal alone - then not many people would be interested in firing rockets into Isreal (as this would be counteractive to their objectives)
Who wants to build infasctructure and bring order, while inviting the Isrealis to drop bombs on it????? It just doesn't make sense.
If the people of Gaza were to prosper, they would turn away from the objectibves of Hamas (constant war with Israel).