Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

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  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    lgt wrote:
    Forgot to address this part of your post.

    The key issue of supranationalism is the erosion of nation-states rights in favour of a supranational structure.

    It is a balancing act and that's where most of the conflict resides.

    Lisbon would have required for Ireland to drop the referendum for any constitutional changes? Is that what you mainly objected?

    It was the change that I couldn't see myself agreeing to at any point in the future. Integration, immigration, whatever other issue people want to bring up... I'm open-minded enough not to shut out future possibilities on most issues. Lisbon wasn't the way I'd go about it, but we've been through that. But I see the Irish referendum system as a sort of checks and balances approach - we give our government so much control, but anything big they want to do, like neutrality or divorce or abortion, they still have to run it by the people.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    It was the change that I couldn't see myself agreeing to at any point in the future. Integration, immigration, whatever other issue people want to bring up... I'm open-minded enough not to shut out future possibilities on most issues. Lisbon wasn't the way I'd go about it, but we've been through that. But I see the Irish referendum system as a sort of checks and balances approach - we give our government so much control, but anything big they want to do, like neutrality or divorce or abortion, they still have to run it by the people.

    offtopic...again;)
    divorce is legal in Ireland though, isn't it?

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Do you not find it a little worrying that he refuses to accept that the Lisbon Treaty is dead? You've said yourself, the politics of it will live on, but the Treaty itself is dead. If he had said "We'll get all the ratification out of the way, and see what kind of move we can make from there", I'd be fine. But the exact quote:



    It sounds like he wants the existing treaty to go through, unaltered.

    hmmm, that's just a single quote...people don't just say one sentence usually...
    not saying it's true, but he might be thinking about a special agreement with Ireland, like that the treaty isn't changed, but for ireland there's an extra document with special guarantees etc...dunno...like I said: this one sentence is all we have...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    nobody wrote:
    offtopic...again;)
    divorce is legal in Ireland though, isn't it?

    m.

    Yep.. legalised by referendum in 95. And it's not really off-topic - the Lisbon Treaty would have meant no more referendums.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    nobody wrote:
    hmmm, that's just a single quote...people don't just say one sentence usually...
    not saying it's true, but he might be thinking about a special agreement with Ireland, like that the treaty isn't changed, but for ireland there's an extra document with special guarantees etc...dunno...like I said: this one sentence is all we have...

    m.

    If you read back over the news articles posted since last Thursday, Jouyet and Barroso have barely said anything except that the treaty can't die just because Ireland voted no. Like you said, it could just be vague quoting (how fitting for the Lisbon Treaty ;)), but I haven't seen anything to make me think he's eager to compromise either.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    If you read back over the news articles posted since last Thursday, Jouyet and Barroso have barely said anything except that the treaty can't die just because Ireland voted no. Like you said, it could just be vague quoting (how fitting for the Lisbon Treaty ;)), but I haven't seen anything to make me think he's eager to compromise either.

    i've seen plenty of news pieces where it was said (mostly by german politicians because it was german news;), including steinmeier) that a solution has to be found with Ireland. also, almost everybody (except the czech PM) said that the ratification should continue regardless of Ireland's vote...and I think we agreed that that is the right thing to do...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    nobody wrote:
    i've seen plenty of news pieces where it was said (mostly by german politicians because it was german news;), including steinmeier) that a solution has to be found with Ireland. also, almost everybody (except the czech PM) said that the ratification should continue regardless of Ireland's vote...and I think we agreed that that is the right thing to do...

    m.

    Yes, I've said ratification should continue. But only to figure out where each country stands, and work from that basis. Not in the hopes of saying "26 countries said yes... what does one no matter?" which is what Jouyet's and Barroso's words sound like to me. But that could just be paranoia from all the threats we got in the last few weeks. ;)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Do you not find it a little worrying that he refuses to accept that the Lisbon Treaty is dead? You've said yourself, the politics of it will live on, but the Treaty itself is dead. If he had said "We'll get all the ratification out of the way, and see what kind of move we can make from there", I'd be fine. But the exact quote:



    It sounds like he wants the existing treaty to go through, unaltered.

    But in order to progress with the political process you MUST allow ALL member states to have their say.

    Indeed, if more countries come out against it, it will definitely play in favour of Ireland position and strengthens it in the negotiations post-Lisbon.

    I actually find his quote reassuring for Ireland. This is the EU position as Ireland knows as well. No changing of the terms for the moment.
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    nobody wrote:
    hmmm, that's just a single quote...people don't just say one sentence usually...
    not saying it's true, but he might be thinking about a special agreement with Ireland, like that the treaty isn't changed, but for ireland there's an extra document with special guarantees etc...dunno...like I said: this one sentence is all we have...

    m.

    Just to add -

    That phrase makes perfect sense because all EU states must ratify Lisbon before any talk of revision of its terms takes place.

    It is, indeed, to respect the democratic process.
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    lgt wrote:
    But in order to progress with the political process you MUST allow ALL member states to have their say.

    Indeed, if more countries come out against it, it will definitely play in favour of Ireland position and strengthens it in the negotiations post-Lisbon.

    I actually find his quote reassuring for Ireland. This is the EU position as Ireland knows as well. No changing of the terms for the moment.

    Like I said - I think three times now, but who's counting? :p - I have no problem with ratification continuing. As long as it doesn't end up being used as a basis for bullying Ireland. But, again, like I said, maybe I'm just on the defensive after all the threats Ireland was privy to recently. ;)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Yes, I've said ratification should continue. But only to figure out where each country stands, and work from that basis. Not in the hopes of saying "26 countries said yes... what does one no matter?" which is what Jouyet's and Barroso's words sound like to me. But that could just be paranoia from all the threats we got in the last few weeks. ;)

    I think that's what is most likely happening! ;)

    Seriously, I would be extremely surprised if nothing will be done to ensure Ireland proceeds - in whatever format - with the process.

    However, the ultimate word will be with the Irish people in the referendum, as it is constitutionally required of them.

    The extreme ratio would be a simple question on the type of membership for Ireland: yes for the integration represented by Lisbon and its possible variation OR you want to stay as it is - and therefore an extra level of membership will be created.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Yes, I've said ratification should continue. But only to figure out where each country stands, and work from that basis. Not in the hopes of saying "26 countries said yes... what does one no matter?" which is what Jouyet's and Barroso's words sound like to me. But that could just be paranoia from all the threats we got in the last few weeks. ;)

    i wasn't threatening you, was I?:)

    we don't know what will happen, and neither do the relevant politicians at the moment, i think...i am very curious, though...

    slightly related: i found that post where HH gave a quote of this one guy, which said something to the effect that the government should trick its people into accepting the new eu. then the whole quote was revealed and it turned out he said exactly the opposite. I'm sure HH didn't leave out that part of the quote but that she found it already edited somewhere in the web. so people are misquoted on purpose, and in the heat of discussion you can't check every single quote...that way i prefer tv news when people are directly quoted (that can be edited too, but to me it's more obvious)...
    in short: the post I'm refering to was CLASSIC...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Like I said - I think three times now, but who's counting? :p - I have no problem with ratification continuing. As long as it doesn't end up being used as a basis for bullying Ireland. But, again, like I said, maybe I'm just on the defensive after all the threats Ireland was privy to recently. ;)

    I was just replying to your posts as I've read them catching up. Definetely got your point now! ;)
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Oh, no, I don't mean you guys were threatening us - I meant the politico-bigwigs. :p

    And yeah, I think we're all replying to about 15 different posts on 4 different threads at the same time here. ;)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Oh, no, I don't mean you guys were threatening us - I meant the politico-bigwigs. :p

    And yeah, I think we're all replying to about 15 different posts on 4 different threads at the same time here. ;)

    hehehe!

    I've got to say this debate has done wonders for my meagre post count!! :)
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Oh, no, I don't mean you guys were threatening us - I meant the politico-bigwigs. :p

    And yeah, I think we're all replying to about 15 different posts on 4 different threads at the same time here. ;)

    i know

    maybe that's part of the problem...
    can't we reach an unanimous decision to settle over to the original lisbon treaty thread for further discussion...(one no won't count of course;))

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    lgt wrote:
    hehehe!

    I've got to say this debate has done wonders for my meagre post count!! :)

    I think nobody's entire post count is on this debate. :p
    nobody wrote:
    know

    maybe that's part of the problem...
    can't we reach an unanimous decision to settle over to the original lisbon treaty thread for further discussion...(one no won't count of course)

    m.

    Never! We need to keep debate about the Lisbon Treaty as confusing and deliberatly obtuse as possible, to keep it in line with the Treaty itself. :p
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    I think nobody's entire post count is on this debate. :p



    Never! We need to keep debate about the Lisbon Treaty as confusing and deliberatly obtuse as possible, to keep it in line with the Treaty itself. :p

    We should also ensure to make comments in our own native languages to ensure proper EU-conformity! ;)
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    I think nobody's entire post count is on this debate. :p

    that could well be...does that tell you something;)
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Never! We need to keep debate about the Lisbon Treaty as confusing and deliberatly obtuse as possible, to keep it in line with the Treaty itself. :p

    i took a swift look at it this morning...don't look confusing to me at all...;)

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    lgt wrote:
    We should also ensure to make comments in our own native languages to ensure proper EU-conformity! ;)

    Ceart go leor. :)
    that could well be...does that tell you something

    i took a swift look at it this morning...don't look confusing to me at all...

    m.

    You're not even allowed vote on it. Your opinion doesn't matter. :p;):D
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.

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