i mainly only read posts here now because of some masochistic thrill that comes with encountering the depths of hopeless ignoramuses and moral cripples such as yourself.
YES! Exactly how I feel. Bravo, Rue, and be safe in the IDF.
The Morning After the Morning After
by Thomas L. Friedman
With every war there are two days to keep in mind when the guns fall silent: the morning after, and the morning after the morning after. America, Israel and all those who want to see Lebanon’s democracy revived need to keep their eyes focused on the morning after the morning after.
Here’s why.
The only way that the fighting in south Lebanon will be brought to a close is if all the parties accept a cease-fire and the imposition of a robust international peacekeeping force, led by France, along the Israel-Lebanon border — supplanting Hezbollah.
The morning after that cease-fire goes into effect, everyone knows what will happen: Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah — no matter how battered his forces and how much damage his reckless war has visited on Lebanon — will crawl out of his bunker and declare a “great victory.” Hezbollah, he will say, fought the Israeli Army to a standstill inside Lebanon and rained rockets on northern Israel. Meanwhile, military analysts everywhere will write that Israel has “lost its deterrence” vis-à-vis Arab forces, and blah, blah, blah.
Sorry, been there, heard that, and I don’t buy it. What matters in war, alas, is the balance of destruction on the ground and the political weight it exerts over time.
On the morning after the morning after, Lebanese war refugees, who had real jobs and homes, will start streaming back by the hundreds of thousands, many of them Shiites. Tragically, they will find their homes or businesses badly damaged or obliterated. Yes, they will curse Israel. But they and other Arabs will also start asking Nasrallah publicly what many are already asking privately:
“What was this war all about? What did we get from this and at what price? Israel has some roofs to repair and some dead to bury. But its economy and state are fully intact, and it will recover quickly. We Lebanese have been set back by a decade. Our economy and our democracy lie in ruins, like our homes. For what? For a one-week boost in ‘Arab honor?’ So that Iran could distract the world’s attention from its nuclear program? You did all this to us for another country?”
As Michael Young, opinion editor of The Beirut Daily Star, put it an article in Slate: “Hezbollah’s ... test will be to rapidly alleviate the suffering in its own community and, therefore, avoid losing its base. The party still has substantial backing among its coreligionists, and it is not about to see this disappear. But soon the fate of the hundreds of thousands of Shiites now living in schools, tent cities, and even public parks will be an overriding concern for Nasrallah. Many have fled areas partly or wholly destroyed, to which they might not return for months or years. ... Hezbollah will have to provide funding for reconstruction and rehabilitation that is likely to run into the billions of dollars. ... The party will have a monumental task to revive not only Shiite morale but confidence that Hezbollah can take care of its own. ... Even the party’s most optimistic interpretation of the current war — that it is a heroic achievement — will not spare it having to tiptoe very carefully through Shiite trauma.”
Moreover, if and when a French-led international force is placed along the Israel-Lebanon border, it will be a big loss for Hezbollah. The Shiite militia will no longer be able to directly touch Israel and start a war for Iran or Syria whenever it chooses. And, if Hezbollah tried to lob missiles over the peacekeeping zone, or penetrate it, it would clash with forces from France, Italy and Turkey, the likely peacekeepers. That means Hezbollah, Iran and Syria would not be able to hurt Israel without also hurting their own relations with the European Union.
Israel needs to keep its eyes on the prize. It’s already inflicted enormous damage on Hezbollah and its community, but Nasrallah will only have to pay the full price for inviting all that destruction once the guns fall silent on the morning after the morning after. So let’s get there as soon as possible. That will deter him. What would deter him even more, though, would be if the U.N. would go ahead and impose sanctions on Iran for its illicit nuclear bomb program. After all, it was Iran, Nasrallah’s master, that ordered up this war to distract the U.N. from doing just that. It would be nice to say to Iran: You ravaged Hezbollah for nothing.
Beyond those two limited objectives, there’s no storybook ending for Israel in Lebanon, and it shouldn’t throw more good lives after some elusive knockout blow. It’s just not that kind of neighborhood. As they say in the movies, “Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.”
Regardless of that article...Hezbollah can be beaten through non-military means and that is what I believe....
actually, i hate my government right now. i can't wait for early elections so olmert and the rest of those incompetent bastards can get thrown out on their asses. the idf fought this entire war with one hand tied behind its back, and for the first time it's not america's or the un's fault. it's our own leaders' fault.
Rue: Do you think Sharon would have fought a more agressive war? I heard that Olmert actually turned down a plan by the generals that would have defeated Hezbollah in about 2 weeks, but he didn't have the stomach for it.
it's my confirming a fact which you can't stand, that i'm a proud jew and an unapologetic zionist. i'm glad my mere existence in my homeland offends you so much.
.
Tell me, how does a proud Zionist reconcile the atrocity of the Holocaust with the implicit links the Nazi party had with the Zionist movement?
Do you regard the 6 million dead as merely "eggs that needed cracking"?
The world's greatest empires progress through this sequence:From bondage to spiritual faith; spiritual faith to great courage; courage to liberty;liberty to abundance;abundance to selfishness; selfishness to complacency;complacency to apathy;apathy to dependence;dependency back again into bondage
If you consider Israel's actions as terrorism that is fine and you can certainly make that argument. But, why do you consider Israel terrorists, but Hezbollah and the Chechnyan rebels as warriors?
I don't think that kidnapping two Israeli soldiers qualifies as an act of terrorism. Israels response was to attack the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and to deliberately target civilians, as it has been doing for years in the occupied territories. The firing of Katyusha rockets into civilian areas was no different to Israels firing of Howitzers into Lebanese towns and villages. Above and beyond all of this, Hezbollah haven't carried out suicide bombings or anything of that nature against Israel and so, no, I don't think they can called terrorists. They were created in the first place in 1982 as an armed unit to counter the present, and possible future, Israeli aggression.
Rue: Do you think Sharon would have fought a more agressive war? I heard that Olmert actually turned down a plan by the generals that would have defeated Hezbollah in about 2 weeks, but he didn't have the stomach for it.
(Fellow Americans, turn your sarcasm detector on.)
Yeah, I heard GW did the same in IRaq and Afghanistan. If it wasn't for those pesky politicians, we'd have cleaned house with those Shi'a militants in like a week and a half !!
Man. How many times will the same old line be trotted out.
"Waaaahhhhh waaaaaaahhhhh...mummy Olmert PLEAZZZZZE let me genocde the Lebanese!!!"
The world's greatest empires progress through this sequence:From bondage to spiritual faith; spiritual faith to great courage; courage to liberty;liberty to abundance;abundance to selfishness; selfishness to complacency;complacency to apathy;apathy to dependence;dependency back again into bondage
I believe that as well.... I just thought it was interesting to hear how Hezbollah has a challenge now to keep their ranks and support.
Many people will question Nassarallah's reckless decision, because it has turned their lives upside down.
The convintional wisdom that Israel's military action will only create more terrorists isn't quite true. Nobody knows what the fallout will be.
There is a chance that Hezbollah will be much weaker because of this war.
That is all I was saying...
Yeah I know...Israel just, iMHO, gave these fund-a-nuts a rallying call...you know what I mean...I just think that if the people were won over through non-military ways it would be the best...it would lead to a better possibility of them ridding themselves of these nuts (who dont desire peace at all) from the inside...like in the past through Algeria and Egypt where they dealt with Al Queda way before the West knew that term....
it's my confirming a fact which you can't stand, that i'm a proud jew and an unapologetic zionist. i'm glad my mere existence in my homeland offends you so much.
for meaningful discourse on israel and zionism i talk to people with at least some background knowledge on the topic. i mainly only read posts here now because of some masochistic thrill that comes with encountering the depths of hopeless ignoramuses and moral cripples such as yourself.
Sounds as though, apart from being an aggressive bigot, or unapologetic Zionist - they're the same thing - you also have a disturbingly over-inflated opinion of yourself.
no, my induction date is in march. please, do me a favor and join the ISM after then.
I predict you'll fit in well. I wonder how many Palestinian women and children you'll murder in the name of your Zionist cause?
As an aside, if a 9 year old Palestinian child threw a stone at your tank or humvee, what would you do?
i love these threads. make me realize how kooky some people really are. we hear about them from time to time, but then a thread like this brings them right to our living room.
i love these threads. make me realize how kooky some people really are. we hear about them from time to time, but then a thread like this brings them right to our living room.
Your living room? I had the impression you lived in a coccoon.
i love these threads. make me realize how kooky some people really are. we hear about them from time to time, but then a thread like this brings them right to our living room.
I really hope you are not referring to me and my alternate way to combat terrorism.....have a feeling your not but wanted to check....
Tell me, how does a proud Zionist reconcile the atrocity of the Holocaust with the implicit links the Nazi party had with the Zionist movement?
Do you regard the 6 million dead as merely "eggs that needed cracking"?
I think you've been reading too much David Grossman and need to calm down. If you can handle it, try reading "Auschwitz and the Allies" by Martin Gilbert. You'll learn that the British Foreign Office and the American State Department intentionally did nothing to frustrate the designs of the Final Solution for the EXPRESSED purpose of making sure that after the war, there would be fewer Jewish refugees that might migrate to what was then Palestine.
I regard your entire outlook on Zionism as being vain and bogus.
i love these threads. make me realize how kooky some people really are. we hear about them from time to time, but then a thread like this brings them right to our living room.
I agree... it's like the train wreck that you just can't help looking at. It's like meeting aliens from a different planet in a way. I try to understand where they're coming from but after a while you realize how messed up their views are.
I predict you'll fit in well. I wonder how many Palestinian women and children you'll murder in the name of your Zionist cause?
As an aside, if a 9 year old Palestinian child threw a stone at your tank or humvee, what would you do?
Nothing more needs to be said for your bigotry, commeasurate with your ignorance. You know, when a normal person doesn't know shit about something, they usually keep their mouths shut rather than spout off the most offensive and unsubstantiated polemic they can think of.
You are a sad case indeed.
The Morning After the Morning After
by Thomas L. Friedman
As already discovered, Israel had been planning this attack for over a year in advance. The kidnapping of two soldiers was merely a convenient excuse. This article says nothing.
For what? For a one-week boost in ‘Arab honor?’ So that Iran could distract the world’s attention from its nuclear program? You did all this to us for another country?”
It's very cosy to sit and hypothesize. Anyone can do it all day. However, adherence to the truth requires something else altogether.
Rue: Do you think Sharon would have fought a more agressive war? I heard that Olmert actually turned down a plan by the generals that would have defeated Hezbollah in about 2 weeks, but he didn't have the stomach for it.
If Sharon was still with us today, I don't think any of this would have happened. I don't think Hamas would have kidnapped Gilad in June, and Hezbollah certainly would not have kidnapped Ehud and Eldad. They thought Olmert was weak because he and most other members of the cabinet have no military background. They were testing him. Unfortunately, they were right.
Now all the morons who are gloating on these boards will be perplexed when the violence in the region is actually going to get worse in a matter of months. As was the case in 2000, the Palestinians will see this as an unequivocal Hezbollah victory and will try to emulate it, forsaking negotiations.
Nothing more needs to be said for your bigotry, commeasurate with your ignorance. You know, when a normal person doesn't know shit about something, they usually keep their mouths shut rather than spout off the most offensive and unsubstantiated polemic they can think of.
You are a sad case indeed.
And when someone is unable to answer a question they often resort to personal abuse instead. Again, your post says more about you than about anything else.
"I really hope you are not referring to me and my alternate way to combat terrorism.....have a feeling your not but wanted to check...."
absolutely not rockinincanada. from what i gather we are both in full understanding of whats going on in the world, we just don't agree on how to deal with it.
If Sharon was still with us today, I don't think any of this would have happened. I don't think Hamas would have kidnapped Gilad in June, and Hezbollah certainly would not have kidnapped Ehud and Eldad. They thought Olmert was weak because he and most other members of the cabinet have no military background. They were testing him. Unfortunately, they were right.
Now all the morons who are gloating on these boards will be perplexed when the violence in the region is actually going to get worse in a matter of months. As was the case in 2000, the Palestinians will see this as an unequivocal Hezbollah victory and will try to emulate it, forsaking negotiations.
As was the case in 2000?
You mean the incident in 2000 when Sharon trespassed upon the temple mount in a deliberate act of provocation, or does your fantasy world construct things differently?
"I really hope you are not referring to me and my alternate way to combat terrorism.....have a feeling your not but wanted to check...."
absolutely not rockinincanada. from what i gather we are both in full understanding of whats going on in the world, we just don't agree on how to deal with it.
"absolutely not rockinincanada. from what i gather we are both in full understanding of whats going on in the world, we just don't agree on how to deal with it.
You two are like Laurel and Hardy. Have you ever considered doing stand-up?
If Sharon was still with us today, I don't think any of this would have happened.
Ariel Sharon! What a hero! A man who has evaded countless corruption charges since his time in office. A man guilty of orchestrating the massacres at the Shatila and Shabila refugee camps in which thousands of civilians were murdered.
I can understand how this pig would be one of your heroes Rue D'Awakening.
I agree... it's like the train wreck that you just can't help looking at. It's like meeting aliens from a different planet in a way. I try to understand where they're coming from but after a while you realize how messed up their views are.
So why don't you and your neo-Nazi buddies get together for a cuddle and a sing-song? I'm sure it would be a hoot.
I won't address your "Israeli actions qualify as terrorism" argument. It's tired and weak, and I've argued against it way too many times already.
You won't address it because you can't address it. You have no case. Israel is guilty of state terrorism and war crimes. You may have "..argued against it way too many times already..", but you're still wrong and you always will be.
Comments
YES! Exactly how I feel. Bravo, Rue, and be safe in the IDF.
Regardless of that article...Hezbollah can be beaten through non-military means and that is what I believe....
Rue: Do you think Sharon would have fought a more agressive war? I heard that Olmert actually turned down a plan by the generals that would have defeated Hezbollah in about 2 weeks, but he didn't have the stomach for it.
Tell me, how does a proud Zionist reconcile the atrocity of the Holocaust with the implicit links the Nazi party had with the Zionist movement?
Do you regard the 6 million dead as merely "eggs that needed cracking"?
I don't think that kidnapping two Israeli soldiers qualifies as an act of terrorism. Israels response was to attack the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and to deliberately target civilians, as it has been doing for years in the occupied territories. The firing of Katyusha rockets into civilian areas was no different to Israels firing of Howitzers into Lebanese towns and villages. Above and beyond all of this, Hezbollah haven't carried out suicide bombings or anything of that nature against Israel and so, no, I don't think they can called terrorists. They were created in the first place in 1982 as an armed unit to counter the present, and possible future, Israeli aggression.
I believe that as well.... I just thought it was interesting to hear how Hezbollah has a challenge now to keep their ranks and support.
Many people will question Nassarallah's reckless decision, because it has turned their lives upside down.
The convintional wisdom that Israel's military action will only create more terrorists isn't quite true. Nobody knows what the fallout will be.
There is a chance that Hezbollah will be much weaker because of this war.
That is all I was saying...
(Fellow Americans, turn your sarcasm detector on.)
Yeah, I heard GW did the same in IRaq and Afghanistan. If it wasn't for those pesky politicians, we'd have cleaned house with those Shi'a militants in like a week and a half !!
Man. How many times will the same old line be trotted out.
"Waaaahhhhh waaaaaaahhhhh...mummy Olmert PLEAZZZZZE let me genocde the Lebanese!!!"
Yeah I know...Israel just, iMHO, gave these fund-a-nuts a rallying call...you know what I mean...I just think that if the people were won over through non-military ways it would be the best...it would lead to a better possibility of them ridding themselves of these nuts (who dont desire peace at all) from the inside...like in the past through Algeria and Egypt where they dealt with Al Queda way before the West knew that term....
Sounds as though, apart from being an aggressive bigot, or unapologetic Zionist - they're the same thing - you also have a disturbingly over-inflated opinion of yourself.
I predict you'll fit in well. I wonder how many Palestinian women and children you'll murder in the name of your Zionist cause?
As an aside, if a 9 year old Palestinian child threw a stone at your tank or humvee, what would you do?
Your living room? I had the impression you lived in a coccoon.
I really hope you are not referring to me and my alternate way to combat terrorism.....have a feeling your not but wanted to check....
I think you've been reading too much David Grossman and need to calm down. If you can handle it, try reading "Auschwitz and the Allies" by Martin Gilbert. You'll learn that the British Foreign Office and the American State Department intentionally did nothing to frustrate the designs of the Final Solution for the EXPRESSED purpose of making sure that after the war, there would be fewer Jewish refugees that might migrate to what was then Palestine.
I regard your entire outlook on Zionism as being vain and bogus.
Most antizionists are antisemites
I agree... it's like the train wreck that you just can't help looking at. It's like meeting aliens from a different planet in a way. I try to understand where they're coming from but after a while you realize how messed up their views are.
Nothing more needs to be said for your bigotry, commeasurate with your ignorance. You know, when a normal person doesn't know shit about something, they usually keep their mouths shut rather than spout off the most offensive and unsubstantiated polemic they can think of.
You are a sad case indeed.
Most antizionists are antisemites
As already discovered, Israel had been planning this attack for over a year in advance. The kidnapping of two soldiers was merely a convenient excuse. This article says nothing.
For what? For a one-week boost in ‘Arab honor?’ So that Iran could distract the world’s attention from its nuclear program? You did all this to us for another country?”
It's very cosy to sit and hypothesize. Anyone can do it all day. However, adherence to the truth requires something else altogether.
If Sharon was still with us today, I don't think any of this would have happened. I don't think Hamas would have kidnapped Gilad in June, and Hezbollah certainly would not have kidnapped Ehud and Eldad. They thought Olmert was weak because he and most other members of the cabinet have no military background. They were testing him. Unfortunately, they were right.
Now all the morons who are gloating on these boards will be perplexed when the violence in the region is actually going to get worse in a matter of months. As was the case in 2000, the Palestinians will see this as an unequivocal Hezbollah victory and will try to emulate it, forsaking negotiations.
Most antizionists are antisemites
And when someone is unable to answer a question they often resort to personal abuse instead. Again, your post says more about you than about anything else.
absolutely not rockinincanada. from what i gather we are both in full understanding of whats going on in the world, we just don't agree on how to deal with it.
As was the case in 2000?
You mean the incident in 2000 when Sharon trespassed upon the temple mount in a deliberate act of provocation, or does your fantasy world construct things differently?
Fair enough.....like I said I never knew...:)
You two are like Laurel and Hardy. Have you ever considered doing stand-up?
How am I like that?
Ariel Sharon! What a hero! A man who has evaded countless corruption charges since his time in office. A man guilty of orchestrating the massacres at the Shatila and Shabila refugee camps in which thousands of civilians were murdered.
I can understand how this pig would be one of your heroes Rue D'Awakening.
Sorry man, I was referring to Rue D'Awakening.
So why don't you and your neo-Nazi buddies get together for a cuddle and a sing-song? I'm sure it would be a hoot.
You won't address it because you can't address it. You have no case. Israel is guilty of state terrorism and war crimes. You may have "..argued against it way too many times already..", but you're still wrong and you always will be.
uncivilized animals that have just given the Israeli master race a beating. Strange that.
if you have your way, maybe.