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Did Hizbollah whoop the IDF's butt??
Byrnzie
Posts: 21,037
From all accounts that I've read, despite Israels slaughter of over 1000 civilians - mostly women and children, the IDF on the ground had it's ass whooped by the Hizbollah guerillas. Am I right? Are these guys tough muthafuckers?
Discuss....
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00171/p1-150806_171386a.jpg
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1219260.ece
Discuss....
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00171/p1-150806_171386a.jpg
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1219260.ece
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The problem of asymmetrical warfare is that the enemy is covert, not in the open, and can strike at any time. There is no real targets to use the conventional military force on. Hizbollah thus could outlast and severely hurt Israeli forces.
When it comes to "tough mo-fos", I think few soldiers are tougher than the Israeli when it comes to their battle experience. And really, who cares?
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
By UriAvnery
08/13/06
SO WHAT has happened to the Israeli army?
This question is now being raised not only around the world, but also in Israel itself. Clearly, there is a huge gap between the army's boastful arrogance, on which generations of Israelis have grown up, and the picture presented by this war.
Before the choir of generals utters their expected cries of being stabbed in the back - "The government has shackled our hands! The politicians did not allow the army to win!
The political leadership is to blame for everything!" - it is worthwhile to examine this war from a professional military point of view.
(It is, perhaps, appropriate to interject at this point a personal remark. Who am I to speak about strategic matters?
What am I, a general? Well - I was 16 years old when World War II broke out. I decided then to study military theory in order to be able to follow events. I read a few hundred books - from Sun Tzu to Clausewitz to Liddel-Hart and on.
Later, in the 1948 war, I saw the other side of the medal, as a soldier and squad-leader. I have written two books on the war. That does not make me a great strategist, but it does allow me to voice an informed opinion.)
The facts speak for themselves:
0 On the 32nd day of the war, Hizbullah is still standing and fighting. That by itself is a stunning feat: a small guerilla organization, with a few thousand fighters, is standing up to one of the strongest armies in the world and has not been broken after a month of "pulverizing". Since 1948, the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan have repeatedly been beaten in wars that were much shorter.
As I have already said: if a light-weight boxer is fighting a heavy-weight champion and is still standing in the 12th round, the victory is his - whatever the count of points says.
0 In the test of results - the only one that counts in war
- the strategic and tactical command of Hizbullah is decidedly better than that of our own army. All along, our army's strategy has been primitive, brutal and unsophisticated.
0 Clearly, Hizbullah has prepared well for this war - while the Israeli command has prepared for a quite different war.
0 On the level of individual fighters, the Hizbullah are not inferior to our soldiers, neither in bravery nor in initiative.
THE MAIN guilt for the failure belongs with General Dan Halutz. I say "guilt" and not merely "responsibility", which comes with the job.
He is living proof of the fact that an inflated ego and a brutal attitude are not enough to create a competent Chief- of-Staff. The opposite may be true.
Halutz gained fame (or notoriety) when he was asked what he feels when he drops a one-ton bomb on a residential quarter and answered: "a slight bang on the wing." He added that afterwards he sleeps well at night. (In the same interview he also called me and my friends "traitors" who should be prosecuted.)
Now it is already clear - again, in the test of results - that Dan Halutz is the worst Chief-of-Staff in the annals of the Israeli army, a completely incompetent officer for his job.
Recently he has changed his blue Air-Force uniform for the green one of the land army. Too late.
Halutz started this war with the bluster of an Air-Force officer. He believed that it was possible to crush Hizbullah by aerial bombardment, supplemented by artillery shelling from land and sea. He believed that if he destroyed the towns, neighborhoods, roads and ports of Lebanon, the Lebanese people would rise and compel their government to remove Hizbullah. For a week he killed and devastated, until it became clear to everybody that this method achieves the opposite - strengthens Hizbullah, weakens its opponents within Lebanon and throughout the Arab world and destroys the world-wide sympathy Israel enjoyed at the beginning of the war.
When he reached this point, Halutz did not know what to do next. For three weeks he sent his soldiers into Lebanon on senseless and hopeless missions, gaining nothing. Even in the battles that were fought in villages right on the border, no significant victories were achieved. After the fourth week, when he was requested to submit a plan to the government, it was unbelievably primitive.
If the "enemy" had been a regular army, it would have been a bad plan. Just pushing the enemy back is hardly a strategy at all. But when the other side is a guerilla force, this is simply foolish. It may cause the death of many soldiers, for no practical result.
Now he is trying to achieve a token victory, occupying empty space as far from the border as possible, after the UN has already called for an end to the hostilities. (As in almost all previous Israeli wars, this call is being ignored, in the hope of snatching some gains at the last
moment.) Behind this line, Hizbullah remains intact in their bunkers.
HOWEVER, THE Chief-of-Staff does not act in a vacuum. As Commander-in-Chief he has indeed a huge influence, but he is also merely the top of the military pyramid.
This war casts a dark shadow on the whole upper echelon of our army. I assume that there are some talented officers, but the general picture is of a senior officers corps that is mediocre or worse, grey and unoriginal. Almost all the many officers that have appeared on TV are unimpressive, uninspiring professionals, experts on covering their behinds, repeating empty clich?s like parrots.
The ex-generals, who have been crowding out everybody else in the TV and radio studios, have also mostly surprised us with their mediocrity, limited intelligence and general ignorance. One gets the impression that they have not read books on military history, and fill the void with empty phrases.
More than once it has been said in this column that an army that has been acting for many years as a colonial police force against the Palestinian population - "terrorists", women and children - and spending its time running after stone-throwing boys, cannot remain an efficient army. The test of results confirms this.
AS AFTER every failure of our military, the intelligence community is quick to cover its ass. Their chiefs declare that they knew everything, that they provided the troops with full and accurate information, that they are not to blame if the army did not act on it.
That does not sound reasonable. Judging from the reactions of the commanders in the field, they clearly were completely unaware of the defense system built by Hizbullah in South Lebanon. The complex infrastructure of hidden bunkers, stocked with modern equipment and stockpiles of food and weapons was a complete surprise for the army. It was not ready for these bunkers, including those built two or three kilometers from the border. They are reminiscent of the tunnels in Vietnam.
The intelligence community has also been corrupted by the long occupation of the Palestinian territories. They have got used to relying on the thousands of collaborators that have been recruited in the course of 39 years by torture, bribery and extortion (junkies needing drugs, someone begging to be allowed to visit his dying mother, someone desiring a chunk from the cake of corruption, etc.) Clearly, no collaborators were found among the Hizbullah, and without them intelligence is blind.
It is also clear that Intelligence, and the army in general, was not ready for the deadly efficiency of Hizbullah's anti-tank weapons. Hard to believe, but according to official figures, more than 20 tanks were hit.
The Merkava ("carriage") tank is the pride of the army. Its father, General Israel Tal, a victorious tank general, did not want only to build the world's most advanced tank, but also a tank that provided its crew with the best possible protection. Now it appears that an anti-tank weapon from the late 1980s that is available in large quantities, can disable the tank, killing or grievously wounding the soldiers inside.
THE COMMON denominator of all the failures is the disdain for Arabs, a contempt that has dire consequences. It has caused total misunderstanding, a kind of blindness of Hizbullah's motives, attitudes, standing in Lebanese society etc.
I am convinced that today's soldiers are in no way inferior to their predecessors. Their motivation is high, they have shown great bravery in the evacuation of the wounded under fire. (I very much appreciate that in particular, since my own life was saved by soldiers who risked theirs to get me out under fire when I was wounded.) But the best soldiers cannot succeed when the command is incompetent.
History teaches that defeat can be a great blessing for an army. A victorious army rests on its laurels, it has no motive for self-criticism, it degenerates, its commanders become careless and lose the next war. (see: the Six-day war leading to the Yom Kippur war). A defeated army, on the other side, knows that it must rehabilitate itself. On one condition: that it admits defeat.
After this war, the Chief-of-Staff must be dismissed and the senior officer corps overhauled. For that, a Minister of Defense is needed who is not a marionette of the Chief- of-Staff. (But that concerns the political leadership, about whose failures and sins we shall speak another time.)
We, as people of peace, have a great interest in changing the military leadership. First, because it has a huge impact on the forming of policy and, as we just saw, irresponsible commanders can easily drag the government into dangerous adventures. And second, because even after achieving peace we shall need an efficient army - at least until the wolf lies down with the lamb, as the prophet Isaiah promised. (And not in the Israeli version: "No problem. One only has to bring a new lamb every day.")
THE MAIN lesson of the war, beyond all military analysis, lies in the five words we inscribed on our banner from the very first day: "There is no military solution!"
Even a strong army cannot defeat a guerilla organization, because the guerilla is a political phenomenon. Perhaps the opposite is true: the stronger the army, the better equipped with advanced technology, the smaller are its chances of winning such a confrontation. Our conflict - in the North, the Center and the South - is a political conflict, and can only be resolved by political means. The army is the instrument worst suited for that.
The war has proved that Hizbullah is a strong opponent, and any political solution in the North must include it. Since Syria is its strong ally, it must also be included. The settlement must be worthwhile for them too, otherwise it will not last.
The price is the return of the Golan Heights.
What is true in the North is also true in the South. The army will not defeat the Palestinians, because such a victory is altogether impossible. For the good of the army, it must be extricated from the quagmire.
If that now enters the consciousness of the Israeli public, something good may yet have come out of this war.
Yeah, so tough that they hide behind those women and children at the mere sight of Israelis. The fact that you think that's "tough" just goes to show that you really don't care for the deaths of 1000 civilians, most of whom were women and children. You see them only as political tokens.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
You make presumptions in 3 out of 3 sentences. Where's your evidence that they hid behind women and children. You don't have any, because they didn't. Women and children evacuating their homes at the orders of the Israelis were then targeted by these same Israelis. Red cross ambulances were also targeted. U.N monitors were also targeted.
I suppose you'll say that Hizbollah fighters were hiding in those ambulances, and were hiding in those basements of the buildings which were targeted??
As for your second point, are you saying that Hizbollah was responsible for the massacre of 1000 Lebanese civilians and not those who pulled the trigger? That's a very peculiar perspective. It reminds me of how the Nazis used to complain about the effect that the massacring of Jews had upon it's soldiers. Those poor Nazis! Imagine what they had to endure??
Here you go:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205349,00.html
That's from Jan Egeland, the UN humanitarian chief. I guess he forget to call the Hezbollah "tough mofos" in his report.
Sure, some civilians were killed as they tried to flee, but what proportion of that 1000 do you really think those deaths comprise? Don't you think that if Israel was deliberately targeting fleeing civilians, there'd be a lot more than 1000 dead? You realize they were hit from the air, right? You've never heard of pilots hitting the wrong targets during a time of war?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Yeah, some civilians were targted as they treid to flee. That is a war crime. Why are you trying to justify it? The fact that Hizbollah supposedly 'blended' with civilians may because about 87% of southern Lebanon is Hizbollah territory. The Israeli army lives in Israel, so according to your logic does this then make Israeli civilian casualties an acceptable price to pay? Afterall, have you never heard of Kytusha rockets hitting the wrong targets during a time of war?
Intentional killing of civilians is considered a war crime. If you want to ignore the fact that civilian deaths are a hard fact of war, then you obviously side with pacifism. In which case, this would rule out the hezbollah being "tough mofos" from your point of view.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
By the way, do you often rely on Fox news for your information? Just curious.
I just get the impression that, in a way similar to the Chechen Guerillas in the Caucuses Mountains, these guys are warriors in the true sense of the word, and maybe no match for the Israeli conscripts. Israel obviously has superior air power and technology - supplied by the U.S - but when it comes to fighting on the ground on an even footing they got their asses whooped.
i can be the first to tell you that you and the fearsome british media, aka hezbollah's PR wing, don't have the first clue what happened on the ground, and your childish gloating is nauseating. it exposes your croccodile tears for arab civilians for the lie that it is. you're just a hopelessly ignorant bigot who revels in the misery of peope you've never even met. please get cancer soon.
Most antizionists are antisemites
What do you know about the British media?? You live in Israel. Talking of having the first clue as to what happened on the ground, what the fuck do you know? Are you in the IDF? As for the rest of your post - stick it up your ass! Perhaps you were simply attempting to get the thread deleted because it's not to your liking. Try harder!
Edit: Your post says more about you than it does about me.
its a war, you have to pick a side. you can sit there holding flowers and praying for peace if you want..but it will take real men with real courage to bring peace.
"..the left is easily fooled by propaganda"
A comment too ridiculous to be worthy of a response.
"israel fights with standards and tries not to hurt civilians"
Really? Tell that to the Palestinians, and to the families of over 1000 Lebanese civilians killed in the last month.
"..their enemy has only one goal, and that is to hurt as many civilians as possible...and that includes their own people. because at that point people like byrnzie will blame israel when the hezbo's hide behind children."
No, people like Byrnzie will blame Israel for deliberately targeting civilians, as has been proven, with the lame justification of 2 kidnapped soldiers - who are still in the hands of Hizbollah.
Didn't you just take a jab at Foxnews? By your logic, what should you know about American news, you live in Britian? But of course, as usual, your logic is completely scewed and in this case - a pathetic display of emotional inmaturity. As if we don't live in the internet age and have instantandous access to any world media outlet. Did you momentarily forget that, or did your childish tendencies take over again?
It is common knowledge that Hezbollah pays Lebonse citizens rent to store weapons cashes in their homes. It is also common knowledge that Hezbollah stores bunkers full of weapons and then builds schools or other public municipalities on top of them, such as hospitals. But is is painfully obvious that Hezbollah purposely targets Israeli civillians with their rockets.
To come on this board and gloat that Hezbollah are "warriors" exemplifies your double-speak in condeming Israel's use of force - and then glorifying a terrorist organization's cowardly actions.
"Nobody wanted this war, and nobody was prepared for it. Look closely at pictures of Israeli soldiers from Lebanon. There is no enthusiasm in their faces, and certainly no triumphalism. Their expressions tell the whole story: 'I just don’t want to be doing this - another war with the Arabs.'
Israeli soldiers were napping when this war started - that's why they got ambushed - for the very best reasons: They have so much more to do with their lives, and they live in a society that empowers and enables them to do it.
Young Israelis dream of being inventors, and their role models are the Israeli innovators who made it to the Nasdaq. Hezbollah youth dream of being martyrs, and their role models are Islamic militants who made it to the Next World. Israel spent the last six years preparing for Warren Buffett, while Hezbollah spent the last six years preparing for this war.
'Israel was not prepared for this war,' said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. 'It came upon us like the crash of a meteorite. ... The whole focus of debate in the country before this war was on withdrawal.' The Israeli Army had just taken on its own extremists, the settlers in Gaza, and removed them against their will, added Mr. Ezrahi, 'and the country had just elected for the first time a prime minister who promised voters to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank in return for nothing.'
In the end, Israel will do whatever it has to do to prevail. But what is so troubling for Israelis is that this war is about nothing and everything. That is, Israel got out of Lebanon, and yet Hezbollah keeps coming. It is all about Hezbollah's need to justify its existence and Iran's need for a distraction."
- Thomas Friedman
Why don't you try to argue your point with responsible dialogue for once? You just make your side look even worse when you spout nonsense.
As well, Hezbullah is largely to blame for the deaths of a large portion of civilians.
As for the performance of IDF's ground forces.
You can't expect a ground force to have much success against an enemy like Hezbullah and it's (Hezbullah's) fundamental strategy.
Realistically, the IDF's ground forces were handcuffed in their battles, with them. The IDF tried to fight within the parameters of the rules of war, against an enemy who use civilians and civilian's homes as decoys and shields; and have an anything goes approach and strategy.
Most of this nonsense in the media is biased propaganda. If the IDF was permitted to fight Hezbullah on level ground, playing by the same exact rules; they would beat the crap out of them.
Even Hezbullah knows that. Hence the reason they utilize that kind of despicable startegy.
Are you talking about the Chechen's that take elementary students hostage? Or the ones that take people in a theatre hostage? ANd that is your idea of a warrior?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. How are Hezbollah on even footing with the IDF? They 1) hide and blend in with civilians - fucking cowards; 2) had been digging trenches and tunnels for the past six years in preparation for this war; 3) hide their weapons in civilian homes and infrastructure - fucking cowards; and 4) shoot at Israeli soldiers and then - guess what? - go and hide among civilians again.
If Hezbollah fought like a conventional army and abided by the Geneva conventions (which Israel does) they would have taken massive casualties. That being said, even as it stands now, Israel still kicked their asses. Hezbollah repeatedly under-reports its casualties, so don't get your hopes up that the IDF "got their asses whooped."
This thread and your misplaced gloating is absolutely sickening.
Yeah...because real warriors intentionally murder civilians and hide behind their fellow citizens. Oh wait...I mean, real cowards.
propaganda, you all line up for al gore and michael moore movies..even they don't believe the crap in those movies..would you like some examples?
it has never been proven that israle targets civilians, its just an anti american/ anti israel hope.
good luck with your support of terrorist organizations, i hope all goes well.
good quote from thomas friedman, from the above.
And this isn't nonsense? Your idea of what constitutes nonsense obviously differs from mine. Has Israel not been in a permanent state of war since it's creation in 1948?
You've been drinking way too much kool-aid.
There are so many flaws, inaccurate numbers and misconceptions in your post.
Word of advise, the truth usually tends to reside somewhere in the middle of all the surrounding garbage. Take a look with an objective mind.
true, but they are a free people. free people don't dream of death and destruction. they want to raise families, build nice homes..do the things that you and i like to do...hezbollah on the other hand, dreams of killing people, and setting up a taliban like society.
its a good side that you chose, huh.
Those who demonize Israel lose the race, before they even get out of the Starting Gate.
It (demonizing Israel) illustrates a clear and profound lack of historical facts and a lack of an objective disposition.
Don't take the statement out of context. Sure, there has always been conflict. But as the article when on to say.... the IDF had just fought their own citizens in removing them from Gaza and the country had just elected a Prime Minister who pledged to unilateraly withdraw from the West Bank in return for NOTHING!
They were expecting a decrease in tension due to their concessions - that is what that statement means...
Yeah, good quote as long as your talking bollocks.
U.S. Helped Israel Plan for Hezbollah Clash, New Yorker Says
Aug. 14 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush's administration was involved in planning Israeli attacks on Hezbollah fighters and views the initiative as a prelude to possible U.S. bombing of Iran, The New Yorker magazine's Seymour Hersh reported.
The report cited unidentified current and former intelligence officers in Israel and the U.S. as well as officials in Israel and Defense Department consultants. Administration officials denied knowledge of Israel's plan for the air war in Lebanon and declined to respond to a detailed list of questions, Hersh wrote.
The U.S. government wanted to strip Hezbollah, which is backed by Iran and Syria, of missiles because they could be fired at Israel in a counter-attack in the event of a U.S. attack on Iran, a Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the U.S. and Israeli governments said, according to the report.
Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced a successful Israeli bombing of Hezbollah's underground missile and command complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel's security concerns and serve as a prelude to a potential pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations, current and former intelligence officials were reported as saying.
"What I understand is this: our military, our Air Force has been trying for a year to get plans for a major massive bombing assault on Iran pushed through the Pentagon, pushed through the process. And there's been sort of an internecine fight inside the Pentagon over just basically the idea of strategic war against Iran. They're very dug in Iran. The Persians have been digging in for -- what? -- centuries and centuries. And the Marines and the Navy and the Army have said, No way we're going to start bombing, because it will end up with troops on the ground. So there's been a stalemate. I've written a lot about it." Seymour Hersh
David Baker, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, had no comment when contacted by Bloomberg News. The White House duty press officer didn't respond to a request for comment.
The New Yorker 8-21
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/14/1358255#transcript
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060813/481/335445916ee1434ba5da417f89c412ed
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060813/481/1515ecb2484e423481dcc8739b2f7e1d
Un-fucking-believable.
You mean fighting from the safety of F16 fighter jets and Apache helicopters? Yeah, really brave. As soon as Israels had to fight like men on the ground they got whooped.