Gaza blockade "An abomination"

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Please explain how any of this relates to the occupation.

Oh, also ... I was responding to Mr.B's specific remark about resentment/dislike ... I never made any claims about the occupation one way or the other, with that particular comment.

Whenever I type that word, it feels like ominous music should start playing ... "the occupation" .... **cue Twilight Zone theme song**

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

So you're now claiming that the Israeli settlements are being built because of rocket attacks? Sorry, I'm confused. Please elaborate.
I get the impression that you're just making it up as you go along.

Nope, never said that. Israel's military reprisals are generally triggered by terrorist attacks ... The settlement of lands is something the Israelis have no valid rationale for, and this is one of the things that they will have to stop if anything is to change. The Israelis weaken their case against terrorism when they continue to expand settlements and then claim that its for security reasons.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Whenever I type that word, it feels like ominous music should start playing ... "the occupation" .... **cue Twilight Zone theme song**

Right, because the occupation is actually a benevolent, pleasant thing in reality, right? Maybe we should play jingle bells when discussing the imprisonment, starvation, and terrorising of over a million people.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

I get the impression that you're just making it up as you go along.

And you get that impression because you're close-minded, polemical, and a little too good at Google searches.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Nope, never said that. Israel's military reprisals are generally triggered by terrorist attacks ... The settlement of lands is something the Israelis have no valid rationale for, and this is one of the things that they will have to stop if anything is to change. The Israelis weaken their case against terrorism when they continue to expand settlements and then claim that its for security reasons.

But to say that all of Israel's attacks on Palestinians are 'reprisals' is a lie, as you well know.

And it's not just a case of them 'stopping' the settlements, they need to abide by international law and dismantle all of the illegal settlements.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

But to say that all of Israel's attacks on Palestinians are 'reprisals' is a lie, as you well know.

And it's not just a case of them 'stopping' the settlements, they need to abide by international law and dismantle all of the illegal settlements.

Sure, I'm with you on that one. I also agree that not all Israeli military operations are reprisals, although the bulk probably are ... Either way, its easy to state that claim when terrorism provides one with the ability to play that card pretty much any time. One wonders what would happen if Hamas was actually serious about peace and stopped the attacks.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

If terrorism worked, not only would you guys need a new group of people to hate on, but there would be no "occupation". Instead, the "occupation" grows stronger with each passing year ... Do you think their MIGHT be a link?.

reborncareerist wrote:

Nope, never said that.

Err, o.k.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Err, o.k.

My belief is that much of the Israeli expansion is indeed about land-grabbing ... SOME of it is about security, and terrorism provides Israel with the means to argue that it is ALL about security.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Sure, I'm with you on that one. I also agree that not all Israeli military operations are reprisals, although the bulk probably are ... Either way, its easy to state that claim when terrorism provides one with the ability to play that card pretty much any time. One wonders what would happen if Hamas was actually serious about peace and stopped the attacks.

Well, they only recently offered a peace deal, but it was rejected by Israel. And that's not the first time either.
Other ceasefires observed by the Palestinians have been broken by continued attacks from Israel and continued settlement expansion.
Seriously, the terrorism you speak of here really isn't only one-sided.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0425/p99s01-duts.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/25/israelandthepalestinians

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Well, they only recently offered a peace deal, but it was rejected by Israel. And that's not the first time either.
Other ceasefires observed by the Palestinians have been broken by continued attacks from and continued settlement expansion.
Seriously, the terrorism you speak of here really isn't only one-sided.

Its not one-sided. But Palestinian "freedom fighting" is a huge part of the equation. We wouldn't be having such a heated discussion if you'd simply concede the point.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Its not one-sided. But Palestinian "freedom fighting" is a huge part of the equation. We wouldn't be having such a heated discussion if you'd simply concede the point.

The only point I concede is that the Palestinians have no option but to try to defend themselves with whatever means they have at their disposal. Unfortunately those means are limited. They don't possess modern weapons, including the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

My belief is that much of the Israeli expansion is indeed about land-grabbing ... SOME of it is about security, and terrorism provides Israel with the means to argue that it is ALL about security.

The settlements have nothing to do with security. Nothing whatsoever.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Israel is taking the place over. Point blank, I think a lot of people miss this reality completely.

They are not interesting in co-exisisting. They are interested in taking the place over over by lethal force according to biblical prophecy.

Words and negotiations are useless to them. They don't care if Palestinians breathe let alone speak words aloud.

They will take over and continue to kill regardless, and the Palestinians have figured this out. This is why their opposition has become so desperate.

That's it...that's all. There are a host of documentaries out there that illustrate this rather well.

Just look at what they are doing. They are killing people to create Jewish only racial colonies.

It needs to be said twice...

They are killing people to create Jewish only racial colonies.

Think about that, and apply it to any other group of people. Like KKK members, Hells angels, Nazi's, or any other group of people.

Racial colonies imposed by lethal force....in 2008!?!!

I think some people need to really open their eyes...

El_Kabong

reborncareerist wrote:

My belief is that much of the Israeli expansion is indeed about land-grabbing ... SOME of it is about security, and terrorism provides Israel with the means to argue that it is ALL about security.

but israel has killed more ppl in a few days than israeli's have been killed in the past 4-5 years

Open

...

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Sure, I'm with you on that one. I also agree that not all Israeli military operations are reprisals, although the bulk probably are ... Either way, its easy to state that claim when terrorism provides one with the ability to play that card pretty much any time. One wonders what would happen if Hamas was actually serious about peace and stopped the attacks.

And I apologize if I sound antagonistic when discussing this subject, but it's hard not to be. There's so much distortion, deliberate confusing of the issues - obfuscation, and just outright lies, constantly being thrown around with regards to this issue that it's hard to feel anything other than anger when trying to simply state the facts and cut through all the crap.

If black south Africans,e.t.c, had had to confront a similar wall of mainstream media manufactured bullshit as has been spun around the Israel/palestine conflict then they'd still be living in ghettoes to this day. Those in power obviously pay more attention to the lessons of history than we realise.

evenkat

NYbenben wrote:

oh... now i get it... so the stock photos are from Amnesty International....dude, much like on this board...you cant believe everything you read... there is more than one side to every story. and NO that is not what daily life is like in Gaza. the pictures you posted are obviously of the aftermath of a particular "incident"... they DONT portray every day life. again, i can look up photos of an israeli bombing scene and post them, would you think that it would represent every day life? cmon dude....

Now I have been saying in another thread there are two sides to this issue and that both Israelis are Palestinians are victims but there are too many "incidents" and they have to stop!

Life in Gaza is not pretty. The Palestinians are suffering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12xtCmSsx4








How can you just simply call it an "incident" anyway?

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

No. So obviously my reading of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and U.N reports is not relevant, right?

And you need to read into all of the reports being made on this issue:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/reports/hundreds-killed-gaza-strip-violence-20071024

Hundreds killed in Gaza Strip violence

Vehicle on fire during clashes between Hamas and Fatah militants in Gaza City, May 2007

24 October 2007

Hundreds of Palestinians lost their lives as a result of the inter-factional political violence that engulfed the Gaza Strip in the past year. Fighting between security forces and armed groups loyal to the two main Palestinian political parties caused the deaths of many unarmed bystanders not involved in the confrontations, including children.

Both sides -- Fatah, headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and Hamas of then Prime Minister Isma’il Haniyeh -- committed grave human rights abuses. They showed a flagrant disregard for the human rights of a civilian population already worn down by decades of Israeli occupation, military campaigns and blockades. These have caused a sharp deterioration in the humanitarian situation of the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.

As armed clashes became more frequent and intensified, Fatah and Hamas gunmen unlawfully killed and maimed captured rivals and hostages. They used indiscriminate and reckless fire in and around residential neighbourhoods.

Neither medical nor educational facilities were immune as they and residential buildings were both attacked and used as firing positions from which to mount attacks. Homes and public properties were damaged and beleaguered residents were virtually imprisoned in their own homes for days by the fighting.

After Hamas’ violent takeover in the Gaza Strip in June, President Abbas’ decision to suspend operations of PA security forces and judicial institutions in the Gaza Strip created a legal and institutional vacuum there. This opened the way for Hamas to establish a parallel security and law enforcement apparatus, but one which lacks appropriately trained personnel, accountability mechanisms or safeguards.

Unsurprisingly, arbitrary detentions and torture or other ill-treatment of detainees by Hamas forces are now widespread and the initial improvements in the security situation that followed Hamas' takeover are fast being eroded.

In the West Bank, there has also been a marked deterioration in the human rights situation under the emergency government set up by President Abbas in June. Arbitrary detention of suspected Hamas supporters by Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces has become routine. Detainees are often subject to torture or other ill-treatment and Fatah gunmen have launched revenge attacks against Hamas supporters and their properties with impunity.

Amnesty International is calling on both the PA and Hamas to take swift and decisive measures to stop and prevent the increasingly widespread human rights abuses committed by those acting under their authority and to put an end to the impunity enjoyed by security forces and armed groups.

The organization is also calling on the international community to hold all the Palestinian parties accountable to the same human rights standards and to ensure that the population of the Gaza Strip is not punished for the positions and actions of the Hamas de-facto administration and that emergency assistance essential to fulfilling fundamental human rights is never used as a bargaining tool to further political goals.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/023/2007/en/dom-MDE210232007en.html

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
PRESS RELEASE


AI Index: MDE 21/023/2007 (Public)
News Service No: 202
24 October 2007

Embargo Date: 24 October 2007 00:01 GMT

Occupied Palestinian Territories: Palestinian factional strife fuelling abuses
Interfactional fighting between Hamas and Fatah forces in the Gaza Strip earlier this year left 350 Palestinians dead and has been followed by further serious abuses in both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, Amnesty International said in a new report published today.

The 57-page report, Occupied Palestinian Territories: Torn apart by factional strife, accuses Hamas of resorting increasingly to arbitrary detentions and torture since it took power last June in the Gaza Strip, and of allowing its forces to attack and assault peaceful demonstrators as well as journalists reporting on their protests. In the West Bank, the report blames security forces loyal to Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas of arbitrarily detaining hundreds of Hamas supporters but of failing to take action against Fatah militants responsible for abductions, arson and other attacks.

"The leaders of both the PA and Hamas must take immediate steps to break the cycle of impunity that continues to fuel abuses, including arbitrary detentions, abductions, torture and ill-treatment by their forces," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International's Middle East Programme Director. "The ongoing factional struggle between Fatah and Hamas is having a dire effect on the lives of Palestinians, especially in the Gaza Strip, compounding and exacerbating the human rights and humanitarian crisis caused by Israeli military campaigns and blockades."

The report calls for the establishment of an independent commission of experts to investigate human rights abuses committed by both parties since the beginning of 2006 and for the leaders on both sides to commit to implementing its recommendations.

According to the report, Palestinian interfactional fighting in the Gaza Strip reached unprecedented levels during the past year, culminating in June 2007 when Hamas seized control of Palestinian Authority security institutions in the territory. It argues that both PA and Hamas security forces and armed groups displayed a flagrant disregard for the safety of the civilian population by launching indiscriminate attacks and reckless gun battles in residential neighbourhoods. This left civilians virtually trapped like prisoners in their own homes while dozens of unarmed bystanders who were not involved in the confrontations, including children, were caught in the line of fire.

The report contains harrowing accounts from victims of both sides and from residents who were directly affected by the waves of armed clashes which took place in the Gaza Strip in June and previous months: “For three days we could not leave the house. Gunmen had taken position on tall buildings and were firing rockets at each others. We feared that a missile could come through the window any time,” a resident of Gaza City told Amnesty International in June 2007.

Rival security forces whose responsibility it was to uphold and enforce the law, and to protect the population, betrayed this responsibility and instead acted as partisans, in concert with armed groups that serve as their proxy militias, and themselves broke the laws and committed gross abuses with complete impunity.

President Abbas’ decision to suspend the operations of PA security forces and judicial institutions in the Gaza Strip following the de-facto takeover of Hamas in Gaza has created a legal and institutional vacuum. This paved the way for Hamas to establish a parallel security and law enforcement apparatus - but one which lacks appropriately trained personnel, accountability mechanisms or safeguards.

As a result, arbitrary detentions and torture of detainees by Hamas forces are now widespread in Gaza, as are attacks against demonstrators and journalists covering such incidents. The initial improvements in the security situation which followed Hamas' takeover in Gaza are fast being eroded .

In the West Bank, human rights abuses by PA security forces are also rife, though much less well publicised - as the international community is seemingly unwilling to rock the boat ahead of forthcoming US-convened conference aimed at resuscitating the long-stalled peace talks between the Israeli government and the PA emergency government.

Hundreds of Hamas supporters or presumed sympathizers have been arrested and arbitrarily detained by PA security forces, violations of legal detention procedures are routine and reports of torture or other ill-treatment are becoming more frequent. Detainees are held in sites not authorized by law for this purpose and security forces frequently ignore orders the judges’ orders to release detainees for lack of evidence.

The PA emergency government has failed to hold to account Fatah gunmen who abducted Hamas supporters and burned down their houses, businesses and charity organizations suspected of links to Hamas in the West Bank - even though the perpetrators of these attacks were often known in their communities and acted in full view of the security forces.

The arrest and detention of more than 1,000 presumed Hamas supporters, most of whom are not accused of any crime, stands in stark contrast to the PA's failure to arrest and bring to justice members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, Fatah’s armed wing, responsible for unlawful killings, hostage-taking, arson and other attacks against people and property.

"The lawlessness which has increasingly gripped the West Bank and Gaza Strip in recent years, culminating in the recent interfactional fighting, is to a large extent the result of the prolonged and systematic failure of the PA to uphold and enforce the law," said Malcolm Smart.

The report also calls on the international community to cease the sale or transfer of weapons to any parties until guarantees can be secured that they won't be used to violate human rights.

"The international community must hold all Palestinian parties accountable to the same human rights standards," said Malcolm Smart. "It must ensure that the population of the Gaza Strip is not punished for the positions and actions of the Hamas de-facto administration and that emergency assistance essential to fulfilling fundamental human rights is never used as a bargaining tool to further political goals."

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

The only point I concede is that the Palestinians have no option but to try to defend themselves with whatever means they have at their disposal. Unfortunately those means are limited. They don't possess modern weapons, including the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's.

Are you saying it's ok for some people or in some situations it’s ok to violate international law then?

yellowsnowbetter

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Israel is taking the place over. Point blank, I think a lot of people miss this reality completely.

They are not interesting in co-exisisting. They are interested in taking the place over over by lethal force according to biblical prophecy.

Words and negotiations are useless to them. They don't care if Palestinians breathe let alone speak words aloud.

They will take over and continue to kill regardless, and the Palestinians have figured this out. This is why their opposition has become so desperate.

That's it...that's all. There are a host of documentaries out there that illustrate this rather well.

Just look at what they are doing. They are killing people to create Jewish only racial colonies.

It needs to be said twice...

They are killing people to create Jewish only racial colonies.

Think about that, and apply it to any other group of people. Like KKK members, Hells angels, Nazi's, or any other group of people.

Racial colonies imposed by lethal force....in 2008!?!!

I think some people need to really open their eyes...

ok...please help me understand. israel wants to create jewish only racial colonies and palestinians want to create a muslim only world.

i think i will take my chances with an israel only colony.