I suppose another question is will Israel recognise the Palestinians right to exist?
Ultimately I'm thinking probably as willingly as they would swallow battery acid.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i dont know what these pix are from... they are fucked up, but i dont believe that they show every day life there.
To show you the extreme bias in your thought process:
you deny that these photos are evidence of "every day life" in Gaza.
You say, it is just "an incident".
So, these photos don't evidence every day life in gaza, but what?
You bring up the few and far between suicide bombings in Israel.
So those do evidence everyday life in Israel?
Ok. Sure.
The statistics show you wrong, though.
The killings in Gaza are dozens of times more representative of "daily life" in gaza, than are the infrequent suicide bombings in Israel.
Fact.
Wow.
And talk about fucked up!
Dude, you are a denier.
Who the fuck do you think did that?
The blue bunny?
Papa smurf?
Heres a great thought for you, which is likely to be partialy true:
how many of the "suicide" bombings have ANYthing to do with Palestinians?
Show me pictuers of a palestinian suicide bomber's body.
What proof do you have?
How do we know the bomb wasn't just planted under a vendors cart by the oppressive Israeli government?
Seriously.
You want inflammatory remarks?
There you go.
:cool:
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
One can be proud of one's heritage, and still be a humanitarian. I am not commenting on NYbenben's own view ... Just stating that pride is NOT the same thing as "problematic". Sure, jingoism and mindless nationalism can create all kinds of problems ... Maybe it was the "unsympathetic" part you were focused on.
What does heritage have to do with being 'proud' of the illegal occupation and the imprisonment and starvation of 1.3 million people? You think this qualifies him as a humanitarian?
Right, o.k. I'm just gonna reach for my Orwell now.
How do we know the bomb wasn't just planted under a vendors cart by the oppressive Israeli government?
That shit has happened a lot more than people realize.
I'd put some cash on it for sure.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
What does heritage have to do with being 'proud' of the illegal occupation and the imprisonment and starvation of 1.3 million people? You think this qualifies him as a humanitarian?
Right, o.k. I'm just gonna reach for my Orwell now.
If you weren't thinking so much about Orwell and being witty/melodramatic, you'd have realized that I did not call him a humanitarian, at all.
One can be proud of one's heritage, and still be a humanitarian.
I am very proud of my jewish heritage.
My grandmother and grandfather both lost a great many of their respective families to the holocaust, yet those that remained not only persevered as a people and a faith, but they also started anew and prospered.
That being said,
while i can not condone the actions of the palestinians, i am certainly empathetic to their plight.
Further, i condemn the longstanding agressions of the Israeli government in full. Their failure to seek a meaningful and agreeable peace with, and consideration toward the inequities of land ownership of, the palestinian people is despicable.
AND FYI, FOR THOSE THAT DON'T GET IT:
The deliberate use of excessive force by the Israeli occupying regime is just as easily defined as TERRORISM as the actions of the Palestinians.
1. Violence
2. Psychological Impact, or Fear
3. Perpetrated for a Political Goal
4. Deliberate Targeting of Non-Combatants
5. Unlawfulness or Illegitimacy
The only criteria litsed on wikipedia not met is "disguise".
The shelling of civilian populations in palestinian areas, the kicking down of doors and execution of all inside, and the firing upon masses from tanks ... those actions meet all 5 other critera for terrorism.
They are violent acts, done for political reasons, deliberately targeting civilians in order to impact fear on the Palestinians, and the actions are illegal and condemned under international law.
:rolleyes:
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I am very proud of my jewish heritage.
My grandmother and grandfather both lost a great many of their respective families to the holocaust, yet those that remained not only persevered as a people and a faith, but they also started anew and prospered.
That being said,
while i can not condone the actions of the palestinians, i am certainly empathetic to their plight.
Further, i condemn the longstanding agressions of the Israeli government in full. Their failure to seek a meaningful and agreeable peace with, and consideration toward the inequities of land ownership of, the palestinian people is despicable.
AND FYI, FOR THOSE THAT DON'T GET IT:
The deliberate use of excessive force by the Israeli occupying regime is just as easily defined as TERRORISM as the actions of the Palestinians.
1. Violence
2. Psychological Impact, or Fear
3. Perpetrated for a Political Goal
4. Deliberate Targeting of Non-Combatants
5. Unlawfulness or Illegitimacy
The only criteria litsed on wikipedia not met is "disguise".
The shelling of civilian populations in palestinian areas, the kicking down of doors and execution of all inside, and the firing upon masses from tanks ... those actions meet all 5 other critera for terrorism.
They are violent acts, done for political reasons, deliberately targeting civilians in order to impact fear on the Palestinians, and the actions are illegal and condemned under international law.
:rolleyes:
The whole concept of international law is a bit of a joke, given how often the term gets misused ... Its as much of a buzzword as "terrorism". International law my ass. Torture is still used/condoned by the governments of well over 100 nations, including the U.S., yet we're going to take Israel to task over violations of "international law"?
That being said (sorry, I HATE that rationale with a passion!), I can agree with much of what you wrote (even though I personally contribute to the Palestinian's plight, if you believe FiveAgainstOne ...)
Israeli authorities said that the boy, sixth-grader Abdullah Quraan, was carrying explosives and that his handlers intended to blow him up near the checkpoint; the boy, and others, disputed this, claiming the bag he was carrying - swiftly blown up by army sappers - contained auto parts.
One authoritative source for understanding the genocidal essence of Israeli military policy comes from within Israel itself - the Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzakhi, Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies at Bar Ilan University (Tel Aviv) and Senior Lecturer in Military History in Israeli Defence Force (IDF) courses for army officers. Yitzahki is particularly qualified in this area due to his in-depth acquaintance with IDF archives, on which his conclusions are based. In the 1960s, Yitzakhi served as director of the IDF archives within the framework of his IDF service in his capacity as historian. “The time has come,” he observes, “to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes…
“For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this fear was not at all imaginary. From almost each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab villages between May and July 1948 - when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest - a smell of massacre emanates. Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were committed after the battle, sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and while the villages are ‘cleansed’. Some of my colleagues, such as Me’ir Pa’il, don’t consider such acts as massacres. In my opinion there is no other term for such acts than massacres. This was at the time the rule of the game… In the first phase a village was usually subjected to heavy artillery from distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After giving up resistance, the Arab fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the advancing forces. Some would not flee and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In the course of cleansing we used to hit them. One was ‘tailing the fugitives’, as it used to be called (‘mezanvim baborchim’)… In a typical battle report about the conquest of a village we find: ‘We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where resistance was noticed. After the resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would leave or who looked dangerous’.” [1]
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
The term false flag is just another validated and considered necessary tool in the game. If they came out tomorrow and said close to 50% (or more) of all these market bombings were inside jobs I wouldn't even flinch.
I often think if people only knew the half of it...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
"Between February, 1948 and December,1948 the Israeli army systematically occupied the Palestinian villages and towns, expelled by force the population and in most cases also destroyed the houses, looted their belongings and took over their material and cultural possessions. This was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
During the ethnic cleansing, wherever there was resistance by the population the result was a massacre. We have more than 30 cases of such massacres where a few thousand Palestinians were massacred by the Israeli forces throughout the operation of the ethnic cleansing. "
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
No, its mostly because of people like Arafat and the Hamas government.
It's amazing how much worse living situations have gotten in Gaza since the Hamas take over after the civil conflict with Fatah...
Funny that. I was stupid enough to think that the suffering of those In Gaza was due to the Israeli blockade, which is preventing essential supplies, such as fuel and medicine, from reaching those inside the Gaza prison/bantustan.
How dumb of me to not realise that it's their own fault.
LONDON - A controversial coalition of prominent Jewish activists and academics has reignited controversy in the British Jewish community after taking out an paid advertisement in The Times this week calling for Israel to lift its economic blockade of the Gaza Strip and accusing the state of breaching international law.
"Independent Jewish Voices" was formed a year ago and counts Nobel laureate Harold Pinter and actor Stephen Fry among its prominent signatories.
Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm is also a signatory though neither he nor Fry and Pinter - the groups most recognisable names - signed Wednesday's statement.
The group was formed to provide an alternative to the Board of Deputies of British Jews - a cross communal Jewish organisation dating back to 1760 - who the IJV felt were inauthentically presenting themselves as the exclusive voice of Judaism in Britain. IJV members say that the Board of Deputies refuses to allow criticism of Israel and this presents a unrepresentative picture of Jewish opinion in the U.K.
The statement which appeared on the inside pages of the paper was signed by 250 of the groups members. Entitled "End the siege of Gaza!", the statement condemned Israel's actions in blockading Gaza as a violation of international law, and also called for a halt to Palestinian rocket attacks.
"The collective punishment of the population of Gaza is illegal under international law. We condemn attacks on all civilians including the rocket attacks on the residents of Southern Israel," said the statement.
The statement also called for an end to the blockade and for "both sides to observe a ceasefire."
Feminist academic Jacqueline Rose who describes herself as a "critic of Zionism," is one of the groups principle advocates. She said that the motivation for the statement was in response to the current crisis in Gaza.
"IJV arose partly in response to our sense that bodies in the U.K. who claim to represent British Jewry make statements as though they were speaking for all British Jews. While many of us have a high profile - we are not claiming that we are excluded from the debate - we formed to make it clear that British Jews do not speak with one voice."
The group has views on everything from the right of Norman Finkelstein to speak at the Oxford Union which they support, to the proposed academic and economic boycotts of Israel which members disagree on. Rose says that while the group disagrees over the boycott they "support it being discussed openly, something which regrettably may be illegal in the UK." She argues that "the battle against antisemitism is weakened by its association with criticism of Israel."
Rose says that the network took out the advertisement in The Times rather that what might be seen as its more obvious political home The Guardian to get its message beyond the left wing readership who would generally approve of the group's credo, to a more mainstream audience.
She argues that "Israel must negotiate with the elected Hamas government for there to be any kind of a solution to the rocket fire on the south."
The group caused a media storm following its launch, with a full page advertisement in The Times, a week long discussion on The Guardian's Website and extensive media coverage. However, the group does not take a firm position on the proposed academic and economic boycott of Israel, with some of its members supportive while other are in opposition.
One of its signatories, Tony Greenstein is a trade unionist who has publicly called for a boycott of Israeli goods and is also a member of "Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods."
A critic of the group, lawyer and academic Anthony Julius, disputed the claim that Israel was in breach of international law.
"It is by no means unarguable that Israel is right to treat Gaza as an enemy territory. It is hard to see on what basis Israel's actions can be seen as a violation and only one or two of the signatories could grapple with issues involved."
Julius argues that the group is "fraying at the edges and has lost some of its membership. It is unable to speak with a coherent voice on any issue, such as the academic boycott of Israel."
Respectable leadership? Yeah i guess we shouldnt have any rights here in the US; and what's going on w/ Israels pm right now?
You obviously took my post the wrong way. I'm not saying Palestinians shouldn't have rights because of their terrible leadership...I'm saying this leadership is mostly responsible for the horrible living conditions most Palestinians (especially in Gaza) find themselves in today.
Yeah Israeli's PM is under investigation for receiving cash from an American. And if he did it? Then yes, he is a corrupt politician (which is not new to anyone). The thing is, Israel police, media and the general population are all over this guy. The same thing would have happened in any democratic nation.
Now, Yasser Arafat, your former PLO leader, has taken a billion dollars away from what should have been Palestinian relief funds/public money, and kept it for personal and political gain. This isn't taking cash from an American. This is 1 billion dollars. Now, can you see why Palestinian suffering has largely been caused by their leadership.
I'm sure the fighting which preceded Hamas' takeover over Fatah didn't help anyone either. Yeah, people were killed too (but of course no one talks about it because it wasn't Israel's fault). Now, their government, if you want to call it that, is Hamas. A well known, fully organized terrorist organization. How can Israel possibly make peace right now, when their neighboring government sponsors terrorist attacks on their nation, and has friendly and financial ties with Iran, who's president said Israel should be wiped off the map???
Guys, I understand we all want to sympathize with the innocent Palestinians who are suffering. And I agree with that. But, Please open up your eyes and realize the problem goes way beyond Israel's attacks on Hamas militants which yield civilian casualties or Israeli 'blockades'
I'm not saying the above two things haven't hurt Palestinians, but theres a much bigger picture here.
I'm saying this leadership is mostly responsible for the horrible living conditions most Palestinians (especially in Gaza) find themselves in today.
Now, Yasser Arafat, your former PLO leader, has taken a billion dollars away from what should have been Palestinian relief funds/public money, and kept it for personal and political gain. This isn't taking cash from an American. This is 1 billion dollars. Now, can you see why Palestinian suffering has largely been caused by their leadership.
Eh, no. Palestinian suffering has largely been caused by the illegal 40 year occupation, the illegal 'security' wall, the check points, home demolitions, regular military incursions, destruction of farmland, and blockades.
Obviously the money siphoned away - no one knows where (perhaps you can enlighten us as to exactly how much and where it went?) - would have been useful, but to reduce the entire Palestinian struggle to the fact that Arafat may or may not have stolen a ton of money is just plain nonsense. But at least you're consistent in that respect.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3995769.stm '..Mushtaq Khan, a senior lecturer at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, says an unusual arrangement was reached after Mr Arafat signed the Oslo peace accords with Israel in 1994.
"Israel set up a system where taxes collected from Palestinians were handed over to personal accounts of Mr Arafat, controlled by Arafat and his close advisers," he told the BBC.
"This was done quite deliberately and with the full knowledge of the international community and the sponsors of the peace process."
"This was because what Arafat was doing at that time was deeply unpopular with his own Palestinian constituency and he needed to have the discretion to use political funds to buy political opposition off and to use money in a discretionary way."
There was no proper accounting of the funds...'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3995769.stm
'A reformist finance minister, Salam Fayyad, was appointed and embarked on an audit of Palestinian cash flows. He came up with the startling revelation that $900m was missing.
Mr Fayyad later said most of it had been invested in infrastructure and business interests and had been accounted for.'
And we all know what 'peace deals' means. They were nothing of the sort. Just opportunity's for Israel to attempt to solidify it's illegal settlements.
How can Israel possibly make peace right now, when their neighboring government sponsors terrorist attacks on their nation, and has friendly and financial ties with Iran, who's president said Israel should be wiped off the map???.
Israel has no intention of making peace, which is why it continues to flout international law and the international consensus - excluding the U.S - for a two state solution on the 67 borders.
Please open up your eyes and realize the problem goes way beyond Israel's attacks on Hamas militants which yield civilian casualties or Israeli 'blockades'
I'm not saying the above two things haven't hurt Palestinians, but theres a much bigger picture here.
You're right about one thing: 'there's a much bigger picture here.' It's a shame that you're blind to it.
People still believe the "wiped off the map" thing?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The way israel came into existance, do you really blame people for not liking them?
I mean it's not like the birth of israel came with flowing rivers of honey and bread falling from the sky yeah know.
No, I don't blame people for having resentment ... The resentment itself is not valid reason for continued bloodshed, terrorism, and hatred, though. There was no real reason for the Arab League to try to destroy Israel, just like there was no real valid reason for Israel to try to take out Hezbollah by killing a whole bunch of non-extremist Lebanese. Is that an ideal humans should aspire to? If you don't like someone in "your area", terminate them? Regardless of how Israel came to be, it exists now and will continue to do so. Peace is the only morally acceptable option, IMO. These people will somehow have to learn to tolerate each other... The Jews aren't going away.
No, I don't blame people for having resentment ... The resentment itself is not valid reason for continued bloodshed, terrorism, and hatred, though. There was no real reason for the Arab League to try to destroy Israel, just like there was no real valid reason for Israel to try to take out Hezbollah by killing a whole bunch of non-extremist Lebanese. Is that an ideal humans should aspire to? If you don't like someone in "your area", terminate them? Regardless of how Israel came to be, it exists now and will continue to do so. Peace is the only morally acceptable option, IMO. These people will somehow have to learn to tolerate each other... The Jews aren't going away.
Palestinian terrorism is a direct result from years of israeli and american oppression.
Israel does nothing, really nothing to end the violence. Before any palestinian blew himself up they had peace movements. But israel kept on pushing them.
It's not a simple "I don't like them in my area" thing, Israel is constantly grabbing more and more land. Let me guess, they (israel) are doing that becoz it will stop the rocket attacks from the palestinians?
Palestinian terrorism is a direct result from years of israeli and american oppression.
Israel does nothing, really nothing to end the violence. Before any palestinian blew himself up they had peace movements. But israel kept on pushing them.
It's not a simple "I don't like them in my area" thing, Israel is constantly grabbing more and more land. Let me guess, they (israel) are doing that becoz it will stop the rocket attacks from the palestinians?
Um, no they didn't. Palestinians were firing rifles at Jewish settlers since basically the moment the first one arrived ... Peace movements? I am sure they have been a few, just like there are Israelis who support withdrawing back to pre-1967 borders.
Whatever ... Everyone who reads my posts knows that I do not believe that Israel should keep grabbing more land.
Not to mention the (re)-establishment of a jewish STATE is antithetical to the very core of the Judaist belief structure.
Judaism is about faith, Zionism is about materialism and political power.
One is antithetical to the other.
In fact, the intentions of the Zionists (to establish a Jewish STATE) was (and IS) highly offensive to a great many Rabbis.
Just a thought.
Not a very useful one, no offense. Every other religious group on the planet can lay claim to states, so I feel that its not really fair to single out Jews in this regard. Why should Buddhists have states then, or Hindus? Or Muslims?
None of these groups state that the material is more important than faith, either. Quite the opposite.
No, I don't blame people for having resentment ... The resentment itself is not valid reason for continued bloodshed, terrorism, and hatred, though. There was no real reason for the Arab League to try to destroy Israel, just like there was no real valid reason for Israel to try to take out Hezbollah by killing a whole bunch of non-extremist Lebanese. Is that an ideal humans should aspire to? If you don't like someone in "your area", terminate them? Regardless of how Israel came to be, it exists now and will continue to do so. Peace is the only morally acceptable option, IMO. These people will somehow have to learn to tolerate each other... The Jews aren't going away.
Please explain how any of this relates to the occupation.
Please explain how any of this relates to the occupation.
If terrorism worked, not only would you guys need a new group of people to hate on, but there would be no "occupation". Instead, the "occupation" grows stronger with each passing year ... Do you think their MIGHT be a link? But no, feel free to keep pretending that terrorism is an epiphenomenon that has nothing to do with the current situation. Its all Israel.
Not a very useful one, no offense. Every other religious group on the planet can lay claim to states, so I feel that its not really fair to single out Jews in this regard. Why should Buddhists have states then, or Hindus? Or Muslims?
None of these groups state that the material is more important than faith, either. Quite the opposite.
Buddhists don't have a state. Neither do Hindu's.
The Palestinians were in the area first. Nobody had the right to come along and usurp them from that place. The Zionist project was an illegitimate one from the beginning.
Still, Israel now has it's own state. But this has nothing to do with it's continued occupation and illegal settlement expansion.
If terrorism worked, not only would you guys need a new group of people to hate on, but there would be no "occupation". Instead, the "occupation" grows stronger with each passing year ... Do you think their MIGHT be a link? But no, feel free to keep pretending that terrorism is an epiphenomenon that has nothing to do with the current situation. Its all Israel.
So you're now claiming that the Israeli settlements are being built because of rocket attacks? Sorry, I'm confused. Please elaborate.
I get the impression that you're just making it up as you go along.
Comments
Ultimately I'm thinking probably as willingly as they would swallow battery acid.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
He's not defending Israel. He's defending the Illegal occupation. Still, nice try.
To show you the extreme bias in your thought process:
you deny that these photos are evidence of "every day life" in Gaza.
You say, it is just "an incident".
So, these photos don't evidence every day life in gaza, but what?
You bring up the few and far between suicide bombings in Israel.
So those do evidence everyday life in Israel?
Ok. Sure.
The statistics show you wrong, though.
The killings in Gaza are dozens of times more representative of "daily life" in gaza, than are the infrequent suicide bombings in Israel.
Fact.
Wow.
And talk about fucked up!
Dude, you are a denier.
Who the fuck do you think did that?
The blue bunny?
Papa smurf?
Heres a great thought for you, which is likely to be partialy true:
how many of the "suicide" bombings have ANYthing to do with Palestinians?
Show me pictuers of a palestinian suicide bomber's body.
What proof do you have?
How do we know the bomb wasn't just planted under a vendors cart by the oppressive Israeli government?
Seriously.
You want inflammatory remarks?
There you go.
:cool:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
What does heritage have to do with being 'proud' of the illegal occupation and the imprisonment and starvation of 1.3 million people? You think this qualifies him as a humanitarian?
Right, o.k. I'm just gonna reach for my Orwell now.
That shit has happened a lot more than people realize.
I'd put some cash on it for sure.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
If you weren't thinking so much about Orwell and being witty/melodramatic, you'd have realized that I did not call him a humanitarian, at all.
Dude, go get laid or something. Truly. There are better uses of your time than singling me out.
I am very proud of my jewish heritage.
My grandmother and grandfather both lost a great many of their respective families to the holocaust, yet those that remained not only persevered as a people and a faith, but they also started anew and prospered.
That being said,
while i can not condone the actions of the palestinians, i am certainly empathetic to their plight.
Further, i condemn the longstanding agressions of the Israeli government in full. Their failure to seek a meaningful and agreeable peace with, and consideration toward the inequities of land ownership of, the palestinian people is despicable.
AND FYI, FOR THOSE THAT DON'T GET IT:
The deliberate use of excessive force by the Israeli occupying regime is just as easily defined as TERRORISM as the actions of the Palestinians.
1. Violence
2. Psychological Impact, or Fear
3. Perpetrated for a Political Goal
4. Deliberate Targeting of Non-Combatants
5. Unlawfulness or Illegitimacy
The only criteria litsed on wikipedia not met is "disguise".
The shelling of civilian populations in palestinian areas, the kicking down of doors and execution of all inside, and the firing upon masses from tanks ... those actions meet all 5 other critera for terrorism.
They are violent acts, done for political reasons, deliberately targeting civilians in order to impact fear on the Palestinians, and the actions are illegal and condemned under international law.
:rolleyes:
If I opened it now would you not understand?
The whole concept of international law is a bit of a joke, given how often the term gets misused ... Its as much of a buzzword as "terrorism". International law my ass. Torture is still used/condoned by the governments of well over 100 nations, including the U.S., yet we're going to take Israel to task over violations of "international law"?
That being said (sorry, I HATE that rationale with a passion!), I can agree with much of what you wrote (even though I personally contribute to the Palestinian's plight, if you believe FiveAgainstOne ...)
Here's one for you:
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianterrorismchildren120314.html
Now, which side is telling the truth?
Furthermore:
one hell of an article about the inception and maintainance of the Israeli State built upon a foundation of perpetual terror against the Palestinian people
If I opened it now would you not understand?
The term false flag is just another validated and considered necessary tool in the game. If they came out tomorrow and said close to 50% (or more) of all these market bombings were inside jobs I wouldn't even flinch.
I often think if people only knew the half of it...
edit:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html
plus the recent Iranian fake terror thing...
three guesses...first two don't count.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/israel-committing-memorycide/
"Between February, 1948 and December,1948 the Israeli army systematically occupied the Palestinian villages and towns, expelled by force the population and in most cases also destroyed the houses, looted their belongings and took over their material and cultural possessions. This was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
During the ethnic cleansing, wherever there was resistance by the population the result was a massacre. We have more than 30 cases of such massacres where a few thousand Palestinians were massacred by the Israeli forces throughout the operation of the ethnic cleansing. "
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Funny that. I was stupid enough to think that the suffering of those In Gaza was due to the Israeli blockade, which is preventing essential supplies, such as fuel and medicine, from reaching those inside the Gaza prison/bantustan.
How dumb of me to not realise that it's their own fault.
02/02/2008
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950381.html
British Jewish group sparks outrage with Gaza blockade criticism
By Saul Sadka
LONDON - A controversial coalition of prominent Jewish activists and academics has reignited controversy in the British Jewish community after taking out an paid advertisement in The Times this week calling for Israel to lift its economic blockade of the Gaza Strip and accusing the state of breaching international law.
"Independent Jewish Voices" was formed a year ago and counts Nobel laureate Harold Pinter and actor Stephen Fry among its prominent signatories.
Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm is also a signatory though neither he nor Fry and Pinter - the groups most recognisable names - signed Wednesday's statement.
The group was formed to provide an alternative to the Board of Deputies of British Jews - a cross communal Jewish organisation dating back to 1760 - who the IJV felt were inauthentically presenting themselves as the exclusive voice of Judaism in Britain. IJV members say that the Board of Deputies refuses to allow criticism of Israel and this presents a unrepresentative picture of Jewish opinion in the U.K.
The statement which appeared on the inside pages of the paper was signed by 250 of the groups members. Entitled "End the siege of Gaza!", the statement condemned Israel's actions in blockading Gaza as a violation of international law, and also called for a halt to Palestinian rocket attacks.
"The collective punishment of the population of Gaza is illegal under international law. We condemn attacks on all civilians including the rocket attacks on the residents of Southern Israel," said the statement.
The statement also called for an end to the blockade and for "both sides to observe a ceasefire."
Feminist academic Jacqueline Rose who describes herself as a "critic of Zionism," is one of the groups principle advocates. She said that the motivation for the statement was in response to the current crisis in Gaza.
"IJV arose partly in response to our sense that bodies in the U.K. who claim to represent British Jewry make statements as though they were speaking for all British Jews. While many of us have a high profile - we are not claiming that we are excluded from the debate - we formed to make it clear that British Jews do not speak with one voice."
The group has views on everything from the right of Norman Finkelstein to speak at the Oxford Union which they support, to the proposed academic and economic boycotts of Israel which members disagree on. Rose says that while the group disagrees over the boycott they "support it being discussed openly, something which regrettably may be illegal in the UK." She argues that "the battle against antisemitism is weakened by its association with criticism of Israel."
Rose says that the network took out the advertisement in The Times rather that what might be seen as its more obvious political home The Guardian to get its message beyond the left wing readership who would generally approve of the group's credo, to a more mainstream audience.
She argues that "Israel must negotiate with the elected Hamas government for there to be any kind of a solution to the rocket fire on the south."
The group caused a media storm following its launch, with a full page advertisement in The Times, a week long discussion on The Guardian's Website and extensive media coverage. However, the group does not take a firm position on the proposed academic and economic boycott of Israel, with some of its members supportive while other are in opposition.
One of its signatories, Tony Greenstein is a trade unionist who has publicly called for a boycott of Israeli goods and is also a member of "Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods."
A critic of the group, lawyer and academic Anthony Julius, disputed the claim that Israel was in breach of international law.
"It is by no means unarguable that Israel is right to treat Gaza as an enemy territory. It is hard to see on what basis Israel's actions can be seen as a violation and only one or two of the signatories could grapple with issues involved."
Julius argues that the group is "fraying at the edges and has lost some of its membership. It is unable to speak with a coherent voice on any issue, such as the academic boycott of Israel."
Respectable leadership? Yeah i guess we shouldnt have any rights here in the US; and what's going on w/ Israels pm right now?
You obviously took my post the wrong way. I'm not saying Palestinians shouldn't have rights because of their terrible leadership...I'm saying this leadership is mostly responsible for the horrible living conditions most Palestinians (especially in Gaza) find themselves in today.
Yeah Israeli's PM is under investigation for receiving cash from an American. And if he did it? Then yes, he is a corrupt politician (which is not new to anyone). The thing is, Israel police, media and the general population are all over this guy. The same thing would have happened in any democratic nation.
Now, Yasser Arafat, your former PLO leader, has taken a billion dollars away from what should have been Palestinian relief funds/public money, and kept it for personal and political gain. This isn't taking cash from an American. This is 1 billion dollars. Now, can you see why Palestinian suffering has largely been caused by their leadership.
I'm sure the fighting which preceded Hamas' takeover over Fatah didn't help anyone either. Yeah, people were killed too (but of course no one talks about it because it wasn't Israel's fault). Now, their government, if you want to call it that, is Hamas. A well known, fully organized terrorist organization. How can Israel possibly make peace right now, when their neighboring government sponsors terrorist attacks on their nation, and has friendly and financial ties with Iran, who's president said Israel should be wiped off the map???
Guys, I understand we all want to sympathize with the innocent Palestinians who are suffering. And I agree with that. But, Please open up your eyes and realize the problem goes way beyond Israel's attacks on Hamas militants which yield civilian casualties or Israeli 'blockades'
I'm not saying the above two things haven't hurt Palestinians, but theres a much bigger picture here.
Eh, no. Palestinian suffering has largely been caused by the illegal 40 year occupation, the illegal 'security' wall, the check points, home demolitions, regular military incursions, destruction of farmland, and blockades.
Obviously the money siphoned away - no one knows where (perhaps you can enlighten us as to exactly how much and where it went?) - would have been useful, but to reduce the entire Palestinian struggle to the fact that Arafat may or may not have stolen a ton of money is just plain nonsense. But at least you're consistent in that respect.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3995769.stm
'..Mushtaq Khan, a senior lecturer at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, says an unusual arrangement was reached after Mr Arafat signed the Oslo peace accords with Israel in 1994.
"Israel set up a system where taxes collected from Palestinians were handed over to personal accounts of Mr Arafat, controlled by Arafat and his close advisers," he told the BBC.
"This was done quite deliberately and with the full knowledge of the international community and the sponsors of the peace process."
"This was because what Arafat was doing at that time was deeply unpopular with his own Palestinian constituency and he needed to have the discretion to use political funds to buy political opposition off and to use money in a discretionary way."
There was no proper accounting of the funds...'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3995769.stm
'A reformist finance minister, Salam Fayyad, was appointed and embarked on an audit of Palestinian cash flows. He came up with the startling revelation that $900m was missing.
Mr Fayyad later said most of it had been invested in infrastructure and business interests and had been accounted for.'
http://www.proxy77.com/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5vZGlvdXNkZWJ0cy5vcmcvb2Rpb3VzZGVidHMvaW5kZXguY2ZtP0RTUD1jb250ZW50JkNvbnRlbnRJRD0xMTg5Mg%3D%3D&hl=2ed
'..Harari, the former intelligence official, said that the Israeli prime minister at the time, Yitzhak Rabin, was offended by the arrangement but was told by his advisers that Arafat needed a slush fund to suppress opposition to peace deals with Israel.'
And we all know what 'peace deals' means. They were nothing of the sort. Just opportunity's for Israel to attempt to solidify it's illegal settlements.
Israel has no intention of making peace, which is why it continues to flout international law and the international consensus - excluding the U.S - for a two state solution on the 67 borders.
You're right about one thing: 'there's a much bigger picture here.' It's a shame that you're blind to it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Are you talking about Iran's president, or are you talking about the general Arab rallying cry from about 1949 to the early 90s?
The way israel came into existance, do you really blame people for not liking them?
I mean it's not like the birth of israel came with flowing rivers of honey and bread falling from the sky yeah know.
No, I don't blame people for having resentment ... The resentment itself is not valid reason for continued bloodshed, terrorism, and hatred, though. There was no real reason for the Arab League to try to destroy Israel, just like there was no real valid reason for Israel to try to take out Hezbollah by killing a whole bunch of non-extremist Lebanese. Is that an ideal humans should aspire to? If you don't like someone in "your area", terminate them? Regardless of how Israel came to be, it exists now and will continue to do so. Peace is the only morally acceptable option, IMO. These people will somehow have to learn to tolerate each other... The Jews aren't going away.
Palestinian terrorism is a direct result from years of israeli and american oppression.
Israel does nothing, really nothing to end the violence. Before any palestinian blew himself up they had peace movements. But israel kept on pushing them.
It's not a simple "I don't like them in my area" thing, Israel is constantly grabbing more and more land. Let me guess, they (israel) are doing that becoz it will stop the rocket attacks from the palestinians?
Not to mention the (re)-establishment of a jewish STATE is antithetical to the very core of the Judaist belief structure.
Judaism is about faith, Zionism is about materialism and political power.
One is antithetical to the other.
In fact, the intentions of the Zionists (to establish a Jewish STATE) was (and IS) highly offensive to a great many Rabbis.
Just a thought.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Um, no they didn't. Palestinians were firing rifles at Jewish settlers since basically the moment the first one arrived ... Peace movements? I am sure they have been a few, just like there are Israelis who support withdrawing back to pre-1967 borders.
Whatever ... Everyone who reads my posts knows that I do not believe that Israel should keep grabbing more land.
Not a very useful one, no offense. Every other religious group on the planet can lay claim to states, so I feel that its not really fair to single out Jews in this regard. Why should Buddhists have states then, or Hindus? Or Muslims?
None of these groups state that the material is more important than faith, either. Quite the opposite.
Please explain how any of this relates to the occupation.
If terrorism worked, not only would you guys need a new group of people to hate on, but there would be no "occupation". Instead, the "occupation" grows stronger with each passing year ... Do you think their MIGHT be a link? But no, feel free to keep pretending that terrorism is an epiphenomenon that has nothing to do with the current situation. Its all Israel.
Buddhists don't have a state. Neither do Hindu's.
The Palestinians were in the area first. Nobody had the right to come along and usurp them from that place. The Zionist project was an illegitimate one from the beginning.
Still, Israel now has it's own state. But this has nothing to do with it's continued occupation and illegal settlement expansion.
So you're now claiming that the Israeli settlements are being built because of rocket attacks? Sorry, I'm confused. Please elaborate.
I get the impression that you're just making it up as you go along.