World Day Against the Death Penalty

Vedderlution_Baby

Ahnimus wrote:

What about this... is it their fault really? Is it the murderer's fault?

Is it his fault that he had the thoughts to create the act?

What exactly makes a person kill someone else?

This leads to the question of what makes us? Our consciousnesses.

I guess if you believe in god or some other devine spirituality, you might believe we are all premade to be certain characters. What choice does that leave us, really?

If our characters are perdetermined then we don't technically have freewill.

What if our characters are products of environment, genetics and interaction?

Who is responsible then?

I know it sounds messed up because no one is accountable for themselves. But I honestly believe it's the truth. Either way you look at it, we are ourselves not by freewill. We have the ability to change, but only based on three things, environment, genetics and interaction.

I think it goes both ways. Some people may know what they're doing is wrong but like you said...can't think far enough to consider the consequences. But you have people who commit crimes such as murder, fully aware of what they're doing and what the consequences will be. These people go through steps to try and ensure that they don't get caught.


I remember watching the discovery channel about a murder that took place. Seemed a neighbor who had the I.Q. of a genuis laced his neighbor's coke with a poison that is very hard to trace and unless you're looking for it...generally won't be found. By a fluke the doctors found it and upon searching his house they fround notebooks filled with diagrams and chemical compositions of poisions. This guy planned out this whole thing, found out what chemical worked best...and what would be hard to trace. He ended up killing the mom and nearly killing two teenage boys. Motivation? The kids were too loud.

Ahnimus

So why do people have the thought to kill and why do people act on it?

Let me speak from personal experience. Because I've been through some real shit and I've almost killed people and tried to kill people. People that I love.

I know many people will hear this stuff and their whole opinion of me will be changed. Because people don't think you come back from that. They think you always have those tendancies. Well I don't. I don't even kill insects in my apartment because I'd rather tolerate them than kill them.

I experienced a serious head trauma when I was a little boy. As mentioned before I was hit by a truck travelling approximately 80 kph (50 mph). Immediately following that I became a very violent person, just like Phineas Gage. I almost killed my best friend and all of my family. By the time I was 8, I was hitting the road, I said fuck this I'm out. But I didn't go anywhere, something made me stay, security I suppose. Life had been good up to that point. The doctors started thinking I had brain damage and at the time I took a lot of offense to it. But looking back now and knowing about Phineas Gage I can see what they meant.

Thankfully there was a part of me that continued to stop me from actually killing anyone. Though that didn't stop me from seriously injuring them or trying to dominate them. To this day I don't know why, I guess a combination of head trauma to the prefrontal cortex and the psychological consequences of almost dying, spending two weeks in the hospital and having my teeth wired shut for a few months.

Anyway, eventually as I was getting older I started to calm down. But by this time I was really sick and tired of the system and all it's bullshit. I was 13 being told to draw pictures and play in a damn sandbox because they thought I was still 5 years old. They diagnosed me with every damn thing in their psychology books and nothing seemed to fix me. So, I started to freak out at them and fight with them. I was eventually put into the psychiatric ward of the hospital where I was analyzed some more and drew more pictures. After that I commited more crimes and hurt more people until I was eventually sent off to a half-way house. I broke out of there, went AWOL with some inmates and caused more chaos. I was totally addicted to it.

After that, I was looking at some serious time in juvenile hall, or worse. I had already commited crimes I hadn't been caught for. Serious crimes that would have landed me in juvy. Somehow, I pulled out of it, my parents had split and my dad was living in Victoria, so I went to stay with him. My whole life changed at that point, I wasn't the person I was before, I had freedom to give an impression to people. Before everyone knew me, they knew what I was like, so I couldn't change.

Ten years later, my whole perspective has changed. Life is so much different now. People actually like me and I fit into society, it's awesome. I honestly thought I would be dead or in jail by age 19. I couldn't forsee this happening.

So you see, this is just me. It's not all that bad really, well, I didn't mention all the details. But other people have lead similar lives, and much much worse. It can go either way, I could have killed someone, I came pretty close a few times. I'm thankful I didn't, as I'm sure they are too. But I can understand how people get to the point, I've felt it before. I wanted to kill everyone at one time or another. Totally indiscriminate killing because I thought my life sucked.

Anyway, a product of society, if I was never hit by that truck. Maybe none of that shit would have happened. Sorry again for spewing hardcore reality about my life. I just can't seem to keep information to myself when I think sharing it could be helpful. It's not a self-pity trip, it's an awareness thing. I'm not saying I'm better either, just saying this is real shit.

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

Who is responsible then?

I don't think it's a matter of responsibility. I think it's a matter of making society safer. We arrest murderers and put them in prison so that society is free from the threat of that person's murderous ways.

And at the same time, we set an example for other would-be murderers. We make it known that murder will be met with extreme consequences.

But, by instituting the death penalty, we send the message that in spite of the fact that society is safer, the consequences should be taken to the next level just for the sake of good measure.

That is, we send the message that the value of a human life is really a matter of perspective -and that that perspective is the perspective of the person who is flipping the switch on the electric chair - the "executioner", if you will. The executioner in this case represents the collective will of the american people and judicial system.

And of course the murderer is saying, "A matter of perspective? What about my perspective?" And our response is, "Your perspective doesn't matter, therefore, your life doesn't matter."

And so the cycle continues without said murderer ever really learning the value of human life, which is that the value of human life is not a matter of perspective. This is because if the value of human life was a matter of perspective, then harmony amongst all people from all walks of life will never be achieved.

Ahnimus

sponger wrote:

I don't think it's a matter of responsibility. I think it's a matter of making society safer. We arrest murderers and put them in prison so that society is free from the threat of that person's murderous ways.

And at the same time, we set an example for other would-be murderers. We make it known that murder will be met with extreme consequences.

But, by instituting the death penalty, we send the message that in spite of the fact that society is safer, the consequences should be taken to the next level just for the sake of good measure.

That is, we send the message that the value of a human life is really a matter of perspective -and that that perspective is the perspective of the person who is flipping the switch on the electric chair - the "executioner", if you will. The executioner in this case represents the collective will of the american people and judicial system.

And of course the murderer is saying, "A matter of perspective? What about my perspective?" And our response is, "Your perspective doesn't matter, therefore, your life doesn't matter."

And so the cycle continues without said murderer ever really learning the value of human life, which is that the value of human life is not a matter of perspective. This is because if the value of human life was a matter of perspective, then harmony amongst all people from all walks of life will never be achieved.

It is the perspective of the people at large that leads to the way we deal with criminals. I've studied criminology and what it teaches is in drastic contrast to how we deal with criminals. We know it's psychological and it's phsycial abnormalities that drive people to commit crimes. Yet we lock them all up and throw away the key. We attempt to rehabilitate them by putting them in with other bad examples.

If you put five male mice into a cage together with no females, is it their fault they fuck each other?

Because they do. But if you put some females in there, they stick to heterosexual intercourse.

Marilyn Manson sang in hist song "Beautiful People"
"If you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean"

If you put criminals in with criminals all you get is criminals. We are products of our surroundings and the influences we are subjected to coupled with our genetics.

Puck78

sponger wrote:

I don't think it's a matter of responsibility. I think it's a matter of making society safer. We arrest murderers and put them in prison so that society is free from the threat of that person's murderous ways.

And at the same time, we set an example for other would-be murderers. We make it known that murder will be met with extreme consequences.

But, by instituting the death penalty, we send the message that in spite of the fact that society is safer, the consequences should be taken to the next level just for the sake of good measure.

That is, we send the message that the value of a human life is really a matter of perspective -and that that perspective is the perspective of the person who is flipping the switch on the electric chair - the "executioner", if you will. The executioner in this case represents the collective will of the american people and judicial system.

And of course the murderer is saying, "A matter of perspective? What about my perspective?" And our response is, "Your perspective doesn't matter, therefore, your life doesn't matter."

And so the cycle continues without said murderer ever really learning the value of human life, which is that the value of human life is not a matter of perspective. This is because if the value of human life was a matter of perspective, then harmony amongst all people from all walks of life will never be achieved.

Are you aware that death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent? There's numerous example abut this, one of the most famous ones was made by the Columbia university.
It is also easy to understand why:
1) people get used to violence
2) people see that the same state use death as a method, so they start to think that if it is a valid method for the state, it is a valid method also for them

sponger

Puck78 wrote:

Are you aware that death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent? There's numerous example abut this, one of the most famous ones was made by the Columbia university.
It is also easy to understand why:
1) people get used to violence
2) people see that the same state use death as a method, so they start to think that if it is a valid method for the state, it is a valid method also for them

I did not say the death penalty was a deterrent. I said extreme consequences were a deterrent. And by extreme consequences I meant life sentences. Immediately following my use of the term extreme consequences, I mentioned the death penalty as taking it to the next level. So, it was never implied by me that the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

It is the perspective of the people at large that leads to the way we deal with criminals. I've studied criminology and what it teaches is in drastic contrast to how we deal with criminals. We know it's psychological and it's phsycial abnormalities that drive people to commit crimes. Yet we lock them all up and throw away the key. We attempt to rehabilitate them by putting them in with other bad examples.

If you put five male mice into a cage together with no females, is it their fault they fuck each other?

Because they do. But if you put some females in there, they stick to heterosexual intercourse.

Marilyn Manson sang in hist song "Beautiful People"
"If you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean"

If you put criminals in with criminals all you get is criminals. We are products of our surroundings and the influences we are subjected to coupled with our genetics.

I completely agree. However, I think it's the best we can do with system that we have. We cannot afford to put every single criminal into a truly rehabilitative environment with group therapy and psychoactive meds.

But, I also think that criminals are also products of their environments outside of prison. I think if they grew up in a certain environment or lived a certain neighborhood, then their likelihood of being a criminal has increased.

But,I don't think we can ignore the fact that the harshness of prison life really does serve as a wake-up call to would-be repeat offenders. Some of them just need a swift kick in the ass to help them stay on the straight and narrow. In those cases, it's a matter of doing to them what their pre-frontal cortex should've done for them.

Ahnimus

Why do people ignore the point that people aren't solely responsible for their own thoughts and actions?

When an animal does something we say "oh well they are just animals."
Well we are just animals too, only a little bit better at some things.

If we realize that we are all responsible for the way our societies influences people and the way we treat people. If we could all be so self-aware that we don't mistreat people and don't lay judgement on people. We could have the eutopia we dream of. We make no effort to understand people, we only provide consequences. I'm no different, but I am making progress in that direction.

Ahnimus

sponger wrote:

I completely agree. However, I think it's the best we can do with system that we have. We cannot afford to put every single criminal into a truly rehabilitative environment with group therapy and psychoactive meds.

But, I also think that criminals are also products of their environments outside of prison. I think if they grew up in a certain environment or lived a certain neighborhood, then their likelihood of being a criminal has increased.

But,I don't think we can ignore the fact that the harshness of prison life really does serve as a wake-up call to would-be repeat offenders. Some of them just need a swift kick in the ass to help them stay on the straight and narrow. In those cases, it's a matter of doing to them what their pre-frontal cortex should've done for them.

Well that doesn't solve the problem. They only learn how to be better criminals in Jail. Sure some come out alright for a while. But the success rate is really bad.

Ahnimus

My ex-girlfriend had a criminology and psychology textbook I read because she was going to be a criminal psychologist. I read it to help her study it, but she never read it herself.

Anyway, it had some really good statistics and stuff in it, but I guess she took it with her.

Ahnimus

Let me also add that I felt a lot different coming out of the psyche ward than I did the jail. The whole time I was in jail I was pissed off, but while I was in the hospital I was always questioning things and I met some people with really serious problems, a lot worse than mine. I met a girl in their that was continueing to attempt suicide. She had recently overdosed on some perscription anti-depressant. She died later from a shotgun wound, they said it was suicide. I also met a paranoid schizophrenic, man he was really messed up. I also don't think we should perscribe drugs for depression, they affect the seratonin levels and mess up a persons brain.

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

Why do people ignore the point that people aren't solely responsible for their own thoughts and actions?

When an animal does something we say "oh well they are just animals."
Well we are just animals too, only a little bit better at some things.

If we realize that we are all responsible for the way our societies influences people and the way we treat people. If we could all be so self-aware that we don't mistreat people and don't lay judgement on people. We could have the eutopia we dream of. We make no effort to understand people, we only provide consequences. I'm no different, but I am making progress in that direction.

Are you familiar with the term conduct disorder? Sociopath? Some people will just never understand the difference between right and wrong. Yes, I agree it's not their fault. Obviously, they are a product of their environment. But, once they're gone, they're gone. All the therapy in the world isn't going to change that. That's what earns them those labels. Ever read in any psychology text about a sociopath or conduct disorder being "cured"?

Yes, I am aware of the low rehabilitation rates at prisons. But, how do we really know what kind of rehabilitation rates we'd be seeing if we put them into a pscyhe ward instead? Has that ever been done on a large scale with violent criminals?

Regardless, the money just isn't there. Our system can barely afford to house and feed the prisoners that we have. And that's what I'm getting at when I say that it's really the best we can do with the resources we have. All we can do is hope that some of those criminals learn from the experience of receiving the consequences alone. I am aware that it is an exception rather than the norm, but who's got the billions it would cost to do otherwise?

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

They diagnosed me with every damn thing in their psychology books and nothing seemed to fix me. So, I started to freak out at them and fight with them. I was eventually put into the psychiatric ward of the hospital where I was analyzed some more and drew more pictures. After that I commited more crimes and hurt more people until I was eventually sent off to a half-way house.

After you got out of the psyche ward, you committed more crimes and hurt more people....

After that, I was looking at some serious time in juvenile hall, or worse. I had already commited crimes I hadn't been caught for. Serious crimes that would have landed me in juvy. Somehow, I pulled out of it, my parents had split and my dad was living in Victoria, so I went to stay with him. My whole life changed at that point, I wasn't the person I was before, I had freedom to give an impression to people. Before everyone knew me, they knew what I was like, so I couldn't change.

Your whole life changed before you ever served time in juvy? You just said that you "felt a lot different coming out of the psyche ward than I did the jail."

Ahnimus

sponger wrote:

After you got out of the psyche ward, you committed more crimes and hurt more people...

Your whole life changed before you ever served time in juvy? You just said that you "felt a lot different coming out of the psyche ward than I did the jail."

I've been to holding cells, and the half-way house was very similar to Juvy. None of it is anything like big time. I think how I felt at the time is as important as the crimes I commited. The real cure for me was getting a fresh start on life. Even that took a long time to set in. I spent most of my time in solitude for several years.

It's expensive to house criminals in jail, but when is it ok to put a price tag on life?

The key point I am trying to make is that we need to put more effort into understanding and refining society to prevent violent crimes. What we do with violent criminals is also important. I do believe some people are unfortunately uncurable, or will most likely not be cured, but we don't make any progress by executing them.

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

I've been to holding cells, and the half-way house was very similar to Juvy. None of it is anything like big time. I think how I felt at the time is as important as the crimes I commited. The real cure for me was getting a fresh start on life. Even that took a long time to set in. I spent most of my time in solitude for several years.

It's expensive to house criminals in jail, but when is it ok to put a price tag on life?

The key point I am trying to make is that we need to put more effort into understanding and refining society to prevent violent crimes. What we do with violent criminals is also important. I do believe some people are unfortunately uncurable, or will most likely not be cured, but we don't make any progress by executing them.

I think what you're getting at is a guns and butter analogy. The government can build more missiles, or it can do more to rehabilitate criminals.

We could cut back on some programs and redirect that money into building better prisons. But, how much of a guarantee do you have that pseudo-psyche-ward prisons would make that much of an impact? You don't have that guarantee.

I think for the most part that once a person makes the decision to lead a life of crime, we have lost that person. Those who somehow make the change for the better usually make that decision for themselves.

It's like how that joke that goes, "How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb? One, but the lightbulb has to be willing to change."

And this goes back to your point about prevention. Now we're talking about sociological problems. That's where the biggest impact would be made, if at all. And that's where the money should be spent. But, just where to begin is what social scientists the world over have arguing about.

And it is only after we've solved the crime problem from the causation side that we should start worrying about the rehabilitative side, just as a fire extinguisher should be pointed at the base of the fire instead of the body of the fire.

And that's why I say that, yes, putting a price-tage on human life is an acceptable notion when considering the cost of improving jail conditions. And, of course, I do not hold the stance that progress is achieved through executions.

I think the reason why you are fighting so vigorously for the rights of prisoners is because you are still struggling with forgiving yourself for your actions. You see the system as having failed you, and you are trying to find an explanation as to how you ever became so fucked up in the first place.

So, by extending your forgiveness to these prisoners, you are in turn forgiving yourself. You're saying, "Look at how misunderstood these people are, just as I was so misunderstood."

But, I think what you're forgetting is that you changed through an act of your own free will. It doesn't sound like the psyche ward did you much good. Maybe lock-up didn't do you much good either. You said it yourself that you just ended up in another more positive environment and took it from there.

I doubt the average prison inmate possesses that kind of intrinsic will of redemption. But, you are assuming that they do.

Ahnimus

I am assuming that the human mind is highly subjective. We create demons in society. Without them we don't feel secure. We create demons to project our aggressions on. The mind is highly plyable and subject to influence.

My experiences I use for reflection and understanding. I don't need forgiveness for the things I've done. My family has forgiven me and everyone else I assume would. I was also in a situation where I was targetted by a lot of people and constantly evading confrontation. So, all that becomes me. There was a time when no one understood me. I'd explain things to the authorities and they just find another explanation that suits their precepts.

It was to the point that I was being forced to consume antihistamines because the doctors believed my allergy to red food dye changed my behaviour. All I can say is there are a lot of stupid doctors and psychologists that don't listen to their patients, or don't trust their patients.

It seems like there is no solution sometimes. But I won't give up.

Collin

I was thinking about the death penalty and how innocent people have died because of it.
So I wondered what pro-death penalty people think we should do when a person is proven to be innocent but yet was executed. This must be a dilemma. I mean, the whole ideology behind the death penalty is justice right, making sure that these killers can never kill again and that they pay the ultimate price for the heinous act.
So, either someone goes to jail for murder, maybe even several people, all the people responsible for taking an innocent man’s life or they do nothing. They admit the system is not flawless, they admit that their “justice” is worth an innocent man’s life and at the same time they say a murderer can get away with the murder of an innocent person. By doing nothing, they go up against their own ideology, because these killers will kill again without ever paying for the exact same heinous act other killers pay for with their life. But then, what’s the point of the death penalty?

chopitdown

Collin wrote:

So, either someone goes to jail for murder, maybe even several people, all the people responsible for taking an innocent man’s life or they do nothing. They admit the system is not flawless, they admit that their “justice” is worth an innocent man’s life and at the same time they say a murderer can get away with the murder of an innocent person. By doing nothing, they go up against their own ideology, because these killers will kill again without ever paying for the exact same heinous act other killers pay for with their life.

that is a very thought provoking question. What DO we do with people who wrongly exectue another human being. (maybe we put the lawyer who prosecuted the defendant on trial if he was responsible for convincing the jury with the guilty verdict...that way we have someone who will be "atonement" for a wrongful death AND (poss more importantly) we'll start decreasing the amount of lawyers we have) Perhaps if the stakes were so high that the legal party responsible for bringing the death penalty would be put to death in the case of wrong conviction we might have lessened the chance for abuse of the death penalty.

Buy you're right, right now we just chalk it up to an oops, we thought we had our guy and that is just as bad. My answer above is very (perhaps too) simplistic of an answer b/c then you have the issue of finding out who lied under oath or who lied by commission or omission etc... which would imply someone knew the absolute truth.

sponger

I'm not for the death penalty, but assuming that the death penalty was actually a morally justifiable means of administering punishment, I wouldn't say that the potential for mistaken identity would make it wrong.

False convictions are the collateral damage of the war against crime. If we're going to stand behind the death penalty, then we have to accept the realities that go along with the imperfections of the judicial system in terms of how it reaches those convictions.

We accept those realities in the case of imprisonment sentences, so the same must go for the death penalty if we are to treat both as equally appropriate measures of punishment for the guilty.

chopitdown

sponger wrote:

We accept those realities in the case of imprisonment sentences, so the same must go for the death penalty if we are to treat both as equally appropriate measures of punishment for the guilty.

if you wrongly imprison someone you can let them out; if you wrongfully kill someone; they are SOL. they are not equally appropriate measures of punishment; that is why there needs to be every step taken to ensure that a mistake does not happen.