World Day Against the Death Penalty

Hope&Anger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

I think those who don't want revenge are stronger than me.

I agree. Once, when I was moving across the country, the truck driver and his assistant got into a fight when they stopped for the night. While the truck driver was sleeping, the assistant broke onto the truck and sold 29 boxes of my stuff -- including lots of personal stuff that can't be replaced. Believe me, I wanted to send my brawny cousins to the assistant's house to take care of him.

But I understand that my own personal desire for vengence is different from the way that society ought to deal with crime and the way the criminal justice system should work. And while the guy probably should have spent some time in prison (he didn't), I know he didn't really deserve what my cousins would have done to him.

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

Right, and that's because they aren't concerned about looking weak.

I'm not concerned about looking weak. I just want them to hurt too.

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

I'm not concerned about looking weak. I just want them to hurt too.

The desire to cause someone hurt is derived from anger, is it not? Anger is derived from fear. In this case, it's a fear of looking weak. Like I said, it's an instinctive mechanism that we aren't consciously aware of. When you were reading my explanation on what drives people to commit revenge, you assumed it didn't apply to you?

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

The desire to cause someone hurt is derived from anger, is it not? Anger is derived from fear. In this case, it's a fear of looking weak. Like I said, it's an instinctive mechanism that we aren't consciously aware of. When you were reading my explanation on what drives people to commit revenge, you assumed it didn't apply to you?

You can't assume it applies to everyone.

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

You can't assume it applies to everyone.

I don't. But when someone describes wanting to commit the act of the revenge, but isn't able to say exactly why, then all signs point to the customary explanation.

Your explanation for your own desire to commit revenge is that you want to hurt the other person. That's using the action to explain the action. You're not explaining the motivation. Additionally, you are implying that you are drawing from true "sadism" when you want to commit revenge. That is, you take pleasure in seeing the other person suffer.

If you were a sadistic person, then I would say maybe that's the case. In which case, it's not that you want revenge, it's that you just want to hurt someone, and you've found a good excuse. An example of that is in Pulp Fiction when John Travolta says, "It would've been worth him doing it just so I could catch him," when he was talking about his car being keyed. What mattered more than his car being keyed was the opportunity to catch and hurt the guy who did it. That's sadism. But, nobody wants to look sadistic, so they wait for opportunities such as their car being keyed. Then sadism is justifiable.

But, let's assume that you're not a sadistic person. In which case, it's illogical to think that you all of the sudden turn on your sadistic tendencies for the sake of revenge. Just doesn't work that way.

The arabs have one of those metaphorical stories that does a great job of explaining revenge.

A man and his two sons were doing their nomadic thing when someone stole their camel. The man ordered his sons to find the thief and kill him. The sons refused, saying that what's done is done. Later one, someone came along and raped the man's wife, then robbed him and his sons. The father says to his sons, "You should have killed the man who stole our camel."

The moral of the story is that revenge is an instinctive mechanism that sends a message to other would-be evil-doers. It's not that the father sadistically wanted the thief killed. It's that he wanted to send a message.

It's a survival mechanism. That survival mechanism is based on a fear of looking weak, as the appearance of weakness invites aggression.

If you want to call yourself a sadist, then great. But, I don't think you are a sadist. I think you are just like a majority of people in that you instinctively react to being violated by becoming aggressive. This aggressiveness is anger. The anger causes you to want revenge.

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

I don't. But when someone describes wanting to commit the act of the revenge, but isn't able to say exactly why, then all signs point to the customary explanation.

Your explanation for your own desire to commit revenge is that you want to hurt the other person. That's using the action to explain the action. You're not explaining the motivation. Additionally, you are implying that you are drawing from true "sadism" when you want to commit revenge. That is, you take pleasure in seeing the other person suffer.

If you were a sadistic person, then I would say maybe that's the case. In which case, it's not that you want revenge, it's that you just want to hurt someone, and you've found a good excuse. An example of that is in Pulp Fiction when John Travolta says, "It would've been worth him doing it just so I could catch him," when he was talking about his car being keyed. What mattered more than his car being keyed was the opportunity to catch and hurt the guy who did it. That's sadism. But, nobody wants to look sadistic, so they wait for opportunities such as their car being keyed. Then sadism is justifiable.

But, let's assume that you're not a sadistic person. In which case, it's illogical to think that you all of the sudden turn on your sadistic tendencies for the sake of revenge. Just doesn't work that way.

The arabs have one of those metaphorical stories that does a great job of explaining revenge.

A man and his two sons were doing their nomadic thing when someone stole their camel. The man ordered his sons to find the thief and kill him. The sons refused, saying that what's done is done. Later one, someone came along and raped the man's wife, then robbed him and his sons. The father says to his sons, "You should have killed the man who stole our camel."

The moral of the story is that revenge is an instinctive mechanism that sends a message to other would-be evil-doers. It's not that the father sadistically wanted the thief killed. It's that he wanted to send a message.

It's a survival mechanism. That survival mechanism is based on a fear of looking weak, as the appearance of weakness invites aggression.

If you want to call yourself a sadist, then great. But, I don't think you are a sadist. I think you are just like a majority of people in that you instinctively react to be violated by becoming aggressive. This aggressiveness is anger. The anger causes you to want revenge.

While I agree I think there's a lot more too it than that. It's so hard to determine why a person reacts the way they do. Each person reacts differently to the same situation. While some forgive, others cannot. I suppose it is weakness for me. I know I would not be able to move past that moment that someone I loved was taken from me and I would allow myself to be consumed by hate. I think Ahnimus made a very good point when he said it's all got to do with the brain. I have a loose screw.

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

While I agree I think there's a lot more too it than that. It's so hard to determine why a person reacts the way they do. Each person reacts differently to the same situation. While some forgive, others cannot. I suppose it is weakness for me. I know I would not be able to move past that moment that someone I loved was taken from me and I would allow myself to be consumed by hate. I think Ahnimus made a very good point when he said it's all got to do with the brain. I have a loose screw.

You can think there's a lot more to it than that if you want, but it really is a simple thing. Revenge has been around since the dawn of man. Behavioral scientists even think they've observed it being practiced by primates. It's a primitive and innate motivation that is so integrated into our psyches that it just goes unnoticed and misunderstood for generations.

When someone kills someone you love, what you feel in relation to that person's death is pain. You feel sadness and emptiness from the loss of someone that literally occupied a huge space in your heart.

Anything else is just reactive and protective. It's hard to understand because our society functions in such a way that we literally tend to forget what makes ourselves tick. We lose sight of our most primitive thoughts. Yet, those thoughts are still there.

BTW, ahnimus has been talking about the pre-frontal cortex and a person's ability to gauge risk vs. reward, which is what I was describing early on this thread, except without the aid of the scientific supporting documentation.

In other words, he was not discussing motivation. He was discussing the phenomenon of how criminals think just like you and I do, except they're not able to think ahead far enough to understand the reality of consequences.

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

You can think there's a lot more to it than that if you want, but it really is a simple thing. Revenge has been around since the dawn of man. Behavioral scientists even think they've observed it being practiced by primates. It's a primitive and innate motivation that is so integrated into our psyches that it just goes unnoticed and misunderstood for generations.

When someone kills someone you love, what you feel in relation to that person's death is pain. You feel sadness and emptiness from the loss of someone that literally occupied a huge space in your heart.

Anything else is just reactive and protective. It's hard to understand because our society functions in such a way that we literally tend to forget what makes ourselves tick. We lose sight of our most primitive thoughts. Yet, those thoughts are still there.

BTW, ahnimus has been talking about the pre-frontal cortex and a person's ability to gauge risk vs. reward, which is what I was describing early on this thread, except without the aid of the scientific supporting documentation.

In other words, he was not discussing motivation. He was discussing the phenomenon of how criminals think just like you and I do, except they're not able to think ahead far enough to understand the reality of consequences.

Then how come people react so differently?

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Then how come people react so differently?

Training. Like I said, we all know why revenge is wrong, but we still want to commit revenge. Most of us are trained in such a way that we behave morally.

Can you think of a single person in the US who would have a problem with seeing Bin Laden executed? That is the true test of whether or not we have really shed our primitive desires. I think only the amish want to see him alive.

As for criminals who take revenge into their own hands, we'd again be talking about people who are either mentally imbalanced or just don't have the capacity to think far enough ahead to really understand the consequences. That's what Ahnimus is talking about with the pre-frontal cortex stuff.

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

Training. Like I said, we all know why revenge is wrong, but we still want to commit revenge. Most of us are trained in such a way that we behave morally.

Can you think of a single person in the US who would have a problem with seeing Bin Laden executed? That is the true test of whether or not we have really shed our primitive desires. I think only the amish want to see him alive.

As for criminals who take revenge into their own hands, we'd again be talking about people who are either mentally imbalanced or just don't have the capacity to think far enough ahead to really understand the consequences. That's what Ahnimus is talking about with the pre-frontal cortex stuff.

While I do think there is more I agree with you enough to let it go. Thanks for discussing it with me and not treating me as a pyshco.

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

While I do think there is more I agree with you enough to let it go. Thanks for discussing it with me and not treating me as a pyshco.

You missed my point. My point is that we're all psycho. If there's more to it that you want to throw on the table, let me have a piece. I'm not going to say I know everything, but I have taken quite a bit of psychology in college, have sat in on a lot of group therapy sessions as extra credit, and therefore can take a nice wild stab and whatever's on your mind. The truth be told, "crazy" people are different from you and me only by a mere fraction of a difference. The huge difference that the rest of think exists is just a figment of our imaginations -spurred by the usage of labels.

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

My point is that we're all psycho.

Alright, Now that I can agree with completely. I got nothing else man. That one little sentence summed it up best.



(By the way...have you ever read Stephen King's Cell?)

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Alright, Now that I can agree with completely. I got nothing else man. That one little sentence summed it up best.



(By the way...have you ever read Stephen King's Cell?)

No, I don't like horror shit. But, let me leave you with one last thought here.

Remember what batman said to robin in Batman and Robin? He said something like, "After you kill Two-Face, you'll feel better, but not for long. You'll want to do it again and again.." Or something like that. I forgot exactly what he said.

But, the point he was making is that revenge doesn't make you feel better about the loss of a loved. That's why it has little to do with the actual act of losing a loved one.

It's just an instinctive survival mechanism that is based on our innate fear of looking weak. Robin wanted to send Two-Face a message which was that there is one hell of a price to pay for killing his family. It's a "You can't get away with that.." kind of emotion. It's like a "I'm not someone you can just step on" kind of feeling. It's a fear of looking weak. It was a "reconciling", so to speak.

Remember what Yoda said about young Annikan? "I sense great anger. Anger comes from fear."

Vedderlution_Baby

sponger wrote:

No, I don't like horror shit. But, let me leave you with one last thought here.

Remember what batman said to robin in Batman and Robin? He said something like, "After you kill Two-Face, you'll feel better, but not for long. You'll want to do it again and again.." Or something like that. I forgot exactly what he said.

But, the point he was making is that revenge doesn't make you feel better about the loss of a loved. That's why it has little to do with the actual act of losing a loved one.

It's just an instinctive survival mechanism that is based on our innate fear of looking weak. Robin wanted to send Two-Face a message which was that there is one hell of a price to pay for killing his family. It's a "You can't get away with that.." kind of emotion. It's like a "I'm not someone you can just step on" kind of feeling. It's a fear of looking weak. It was a "reconciling", so to speak.

Remember what Yoda said about young Annikan? "I sense great anger. Anger comes from fear."

In the book King is talking about how man came to rule (something like that...It's been awhile) and sayis something along the lines of

"It wasn't because we were smarter and even stroner. It was because we're the most murderous motherfuckers in the jungle." man I fucking love that line.

(Is there anything that can't be explained through starwars?)

sponger

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

"It wasn't because we were smarter and even stroner. It was because we're the most murderous motherfuckers in the jungle." man I fucking love that line.

lmao.

Vedderlution_Baby

oops. that was supposed to be "Even stronger".

I made it seem like even the monkeys were taking a hit.

Hopefully you got what I meant though.

Ahnimus

So are we in denial?

Are humans really the parasite of the planet, bent on it's mutilation and destruction?

Is there anything we can do to end murder? Or is it just a phenomenon of nature? Some sociocultural cocktail of negative thoughts that only affects some people?

Vedderlution_Baby

Ahnimus wrote:

So are we in denial?

Are humans really the parasite of the planet, bent on it's mutilation and destruction?

Is there anything we can do to end murder? Or is it just a phenomenon of nature? Some sociocultural cocktail of negative thoughts that only affects some people?

nah. I think the murderous instinct that we all may harbor in us can be overcome. In today's world where we constantly see images of war, where violence in made romantic, where we are told its a dog eat dog world? maybe not. But hopefully as society progress, then primative instincts that are still inside with subisde even more, eventually fading off.

(But I still don't hold humans in high regards. Bad track record)

Ahnimus

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

nah. I think the murderous instinct that we all may harbor in us can be overcome. In today's world where we constantly see images of war, where violence in made romantic, where we are told its a dog eat dog world? maybe not. But hopefully as society progress, then primative instincts that are still inside with subisde even more, eventually fading off.

(But I still don't hold humans in high regards. Bad track record)

What about this... is it their fault really? Is it the murderer's fault?

Is it his fault that he had the thoughts to create the act?

What exactly makes a person kill someone else?

This leads to the question of what makes us? Our consciousnesses.

I guess if you believe in god or some other devine spirituality, you might believe we are all premade to be certain characters. What choice does that leave us, really?

If our characters are perdetermined then we don't technically have freewill.

What if our characters are products of environment, genetics and interaction?

Who is responsible then?

I know it sounds messed up because no one is accountable for themselves. But I honestly believe it's the truth. Either way you look at it, we are ourselves not by freewill. We have the ability to change, but only based on three things, environment, genetics and interaction.

sponger

Ahnimus wrote:

So are we in denial?

Are humans really the parasite of the planet, bent on it's mutilation and destruction?

Is there anything we can do to end murder? Or is it just a phenomenon of nature? Some sociocultural cocktail of negative thoughts that only affects some people?

My answer to that is no. The proof being the existence of trust. Trust exists most commonly within families. Without trust, there is no such thing as family. And it is virtually impossible to want to kill someone that you completely "trust".

But, we still live in a world where no one really trusts anyone other than family. I think the key to world peace is for everyone to realize that we're all the same, and are therefore deserving of each other's trust.

I don't think it's possible for us to trust a person that we feel is "different" from us. We first have to find commonalities.

But, finding commonalities is difficult for human beings because we have so little to go on. That is, we don't really know ourselves well enough to be able to see ourselves in other people. We have these subconsious "separators" in our minds that tell us about class, race, nationality, gender......It all amounts to a lot of energy being spent on convincing ourselves of why we are different, not why we are the same.

The example from vedderlution about the chemist killing his neighbors illustrates what I'm talking about. That chemist, regardless of his intelligence, lacked the ability to see commonalities between himself and his neighbors. He didn't remember what it was like to be a loud kid. He probably has had very few meaningful relationships in life. He probably never felt that bond that goes hand in hand with being able to completely trust another person.

Pink Floyd Animals describes what I'm talking about. Is most of that album not about a guy who doesn't trust people?

So, in summary, the key to world peace is self-knowledge. Self-knowledge will enhance our ability to trust. With trust, there will be no reason to kill.