Interesting thought I had.

Rats of Multa · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yup Ben ignored his own findings. But I was talking about Ben's findings, not his philosophical viewpoint.

must not have been very conclusive findings.

now i really think youre insane.

Vedderlution_Baby · April 2007

Welp, I pretty much addressed the question successfully...sssoooo........

OH! Who wants to talk about abortion!?

onelongsong · April 2007

hippiemom wrote:

Well, let's compare ... here's a short list of differences between how I treat my children and how god treats his:

1. I'm here, physically present every day of their lives. I didn't have someone else hand them a book, written by a third party, filled with things I supposedly said, some of which are confusing, some of which are contradictory, and all of which are unverifiable, and expect my kids to follow that book to the letter on pain of death.

2. There is nothing my children could do which would compel me to send them to an eternity of suffering.

3. When I want my kids to do something, I am very clear about it. I don't give them riddles and stories to decipher, I don't have someone else pass the word along for me. If they fail to do as I asked because I failed to make myself clear, that is MY failing and not theirs.

4. I do not ask them to do things that are impossible for their stage of development and then expect them to beg my forgiveness for not being able to do them.

5. No one has to die, either as payment or punishment for wrongdoings. I don't have to sacrifice myself or my child, I don't threaten my children with death, I don't ask that they kill anyone else ... not even as a test just to see if they'd do it.

6. If my kids did not love and respect me, I would assume that it was my own damn fault for not behaving in a way that is lovable and respectable.

As I said, that's just the short list, off the top of my head. Sorry, but your god does not impress me with his great love.

why do you pick the teachings of one organized religion and put so much into what they say that you assume they are right about God? what you listed has nothing to do with God. that is not God and i'm offended. i would feel much better if you had stated what teachings you were referring to. it seems you condemn all for the teachings of one.

soulsinging · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why do you pick the teachings of one organized religion and put so much into what they say that you assume they are right about God? what you listed has nothing to do with God. that is not God and i'm offended. i would feel much better if you had stated what teachings you were referring to. it seems you condemn all for the teachings of one.

have you been following the thread? her response is a clear and direct rebuttal to some of the expressed beliefs of unconditional love made by christians about their beliefs in this thread. it was meant to respond to their concept of god and that alone. i dont think she claimed it was any more than that.

Collin · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why do you pick the teachings of one organized religion and put so much into what they say that you assume they are right about God? what you listed has nothing to do with God. that is not God and i'm offended. i would feel much better if you had stated what teachings you were referring to. it seems you condemn all for the teachings of one.

It was a reply to PJammin', I believe. This is his god.

hippiemom · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why do you pick the teachings of one organized religion and put so much into what they say that you assume they are right about God? what you listed has nothing to do with God. that is not God and i'm offended. i would feel much better if you had stated what teachings you were referring to. it seems you condemn all for the teachings of one.

Because I was responding to a bible-believing Christian. It was not meant as a statement on all spirituality. It was not in any way directed at your beliefs, so I don't understand why you'd be offended. I'm not condemning anyone, it's a debate. And incidentally, I thought I made it pretty clear that I think they are wrong about god.

gue_barium · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why do you pick the teachings of one organized religion and put so much into what they say that you assume they are right about God? what you listed has nothing to do with God. that is not God and i'm offended. i would feel much better if you had stated what teachings you were referring to. it seems you condemn all for the teachings of one.

She was replying directly to Pjammin.

PJammin' · April 2007

hippiemom wrote:

Well, let's compare ... here's a short list of differences between how I treat my children and how god treats his:

i should've known the same band of non-believers would say your post was great.

yeah, lets get to this list, hippiemom. i was expecting you to show up at some point.

1. I'm here, physically present every day of their lives. I didn't have someone else hand them a book, written by a third party, filled with things I supposedly said, some of which are confusing, some of which are contradictory, and all of which are unverifiable, and expect my kids to follow that book to the letter on pain of death.

first of all, God IS present in His children's lives. hippiemom, your mortal eye wouldn't even be able to handle His physical presense. look into the sun for a period of time and you'll go blind. God's light is far more superior than the sun in which He made. i don't know if i told you, or someone else, but God's physical presense would blow your humanly body away. so, God is present everyday of His childrens lives(Psalm 125:2). notice the words "this time and FOREVER."

the Bible is clearly God's Word. i already posted the answer to that, but i'll do it again(2 Peter 1:20,21). it CERTAINLY wasn't of a third party. you're mistaken. i'll address the confusing comment later, but God's Word is PERFECT. He doesn't contradict His own Word. once again, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. also, you don't have to expect your kids to follow God's Word. He has a way of putting His Word into the hearts of children in His own way, and even if they don't believe now, it doesn't mean that they never will.

2. There is nothing my children could do which would compel me to send them to an eternity of suffering.

it's simple, really. if you're not of God, you're of something else. so therefore, you're NOT God's child. how hard is that to understand????? i already explained that once.

3. When I want my kids to do something, I am very clear about it. I don't give them riddles and stories to decipher, I don't have someone else pass the word along for me. If they fail to do as I asked because I failed to make myself clear, that is MY failing and not theirs.

God is EXCEPTIONALLY clear about what He would like His children to do. the riddles i will get to with the confusing comment. if you deny Him, He denies YOU because you're not His child. your heart's not right with HIM. if your heart was right with Him then you'd hear Him. you're already listening to your parent, whoever you follow. if you follow zeus, then your parent is zeus. lastly, if human beings fail, it's because of them. God does not fail. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:8). failure is not a part of Him.

4. I do not ask them to do things that are impossible for their stage of development and then expect them to beg my forgiveness for not being able to do them.

God doesn't ask for the impossible. you just misunderstand God and His love. did Jesus ask anyone to beg? no. in fact, He washed sinful men's feet. He lowered HIMSELF. He doesn't ask the IMPOSSIBLE, i don't think loving is the impossible.

5. No one has to die, either as payment or punishment for wrongdoings. I don't have to sacrifice myself or my child, I don't threaten my children with death, I don't ask that they kill anyone else ... not even as a test just to see if they'd do it.

did Jesus tell people to kill, or He Himself kill ANYONE? NO. He's the prince of peace. maybe you should look into this chaper and verse:

John 8:44

6. If my kids did not love and respect me, I would assume that it was my own damn fault for not behaving in a way that is lovable and respectable.

God always behaves in love. He has tremendous mercy and grace. God's children hear His voice and follow Him. there is GREAT love. it's NEVER God's fault. how can it be God's fault when God's Word is established, nothing can be added or taken away from it. He doesn't make mistakes.

As I said, that's just the short list, off the top of my head. Sorry, but your god does not impress me with his great love.

well, i'm impressed and in wonderment, so it suits me.

now to the riddles and confusing speach you don't understand. here is the answer:

Matthew 13:14,15

hippiemom · April 2007

PJammin' wrote:

i should've known the same band of non-believers would say your post was great. yeah, lets get to this list, hippiemom. i was expecting you to show up at some point.

first of all, God IS present in His children's lives. hippiemom, your mortal eye wouldn't even be able to handle His physical presense. look into the sun for a period of time and you'll go blind. God's light is far more superior than the sun in which He made. i don't know if i told you, or someone else, but God's physical presense would blow your humanly body away. so, God is present everyday of His childrens lives(Psalm 125:2). notice the words "this time and FOREVER."

the Bible is clearly God's Word. i already posted the answer to that, but i'll do it again(2 Peter 1:20,21). it CERTAINLY wasn't of a third party. you're mistaken. i'll address the confusing comment later, but God's Word is PERFECT. He doesn't contradict His own Word. once again, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. also, you don't have to expect your kids to follow God's Word. He has a way of putting His Word into the hearts of children in His own way, and even if they don't believe now, it doesn't mean that they never will.

Again with the circular logic. The bible is the word of god. How do we know that? Because god said so. Where did he say it? In the bible. For some reason I find this unconvincing.

PJammin' wrote:

it's simple, really. if you're not of God, you're of something else. so therefore, you're NOT God's child. how hard is that to understand????? i already explained that once.

I was taught that we are all god's children, believers and non-believers alike. Different churches, I guess.

PJammin' wrote:

God is EXCEPTIONALLY clear about what He would like His children to do. the riddles i will get to with the confusing comment. if you deny Him, He denies YOU because you're not His child. your heart's not right with HIM. if your heart was right with Him then you'd hear Him. you're already listening to your parent, whoever you follow. if you follow zeus, then your parent is zeus. lastly, if human beings fail, it's because of them. God does not fail. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:8). failure is not a part of Him.

My children are who they are. They can deny that they are mine, but I would know that they were wrong and would not stop loving them. I'd also be taking a long, hard look at myself to figure out what I'd done to make them deny their own mother. That's not natural behavior for children raised by loving parents. Barring mental illness, I assume the fault would lie with me.

PJammin' wrote:

God doesn't ask for the impossible. you just misunderstand God and His love. did Jesus ask anyone to beg? no. in fact, He washed sinful men's feet. He lowered HIMSELF. He doesn't ask the IMPOSSIBLE, i don't think loving is the impossible.

Again, could be that we were just taught in different churches. The lesson I got was that we need redemption through Jesus because we are incapable of meeting god's standards on our own.

PJammin' wrote:

did Jesus tell people to kill, or He Himself kill ANYONE? NO. He's the prince of peace. maybe you should look into this chaper and verse:

John 8:44

No, Jesus did not kill anyone, or ask anyone to kill, but one thing confuses me ... the constant disavowal of the Old Testament by Christians. Every Christian church I've ever been to still includes an old testament reading every Sunday, but when questioned, everyone tells me that the old testament doesn't count anymore.

PJammin' wrote:

God always behaves in love. He has tremendous mercy and grace. God's children hear His voice and follow Him. there is GREAT love. it's NEVER God's fault. how can it be God's fault when God's Word is established, nothing can be added or taken away from it. He doesn't make mistakes.

Says you.

PJammin' wrote:

well, i'm impressed and in wonderment, so it suits me. now to the riddles and confusing speach you don't understand. here is the answer:

Matthew 13:14,15

So essentially, the message is "If you don't get it, too bad, that's your problem ... the well-being of your eternal soul is at stake here, but don't expect any help from me." Very loving indeed.

Look, this is all just academic to me, since obviously I don't believe a word of it, so I don't see any point in continuing the debate, unless you're truly bored and have nothing better to do

You said your thing, I said mine, no one is changing minds here. I do respect you for the diligence with which you stand up for your beliefs

gue_barium · April 2007

PJammin' wrote:

i should've known the same band of non-believers would say your post was great. yeah, lets get to this list, hippiemom. i was expecting you to show up at some point.

I'm a believer, I just believe differently than you.

PJammin' · April 2007

hippiemom wrote:

Look, this is all just academic to me, since obviously I don't believe a word of it, so I don't see any point in continuing the debate, unless you're truly bored and have nothing better to do You said your thing, I said mine, no one is changing minds here. I do respect you for the diligence with which you stand up for your beliefs

honestly, right now i don't have time to come back with a reply. if i have time later i'll be happy to do so. i don't know all of the ways your own church taught, but they are clearly misleading people. i don't know how much longer i will stay in this thread, but i hope some people got something out of what i said, even if they are just lurking. you'll be hardpressed to get the answers to questions in which i just laid out here in this thread. i'm not teaching my own personal agenda, i'm teaching GOD'S AGENDA: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. all the credit goes to God. anyway, you have your beliefs, i hope they are 100% solid. i have no doubt in mine. peace.

vmfury · April 2007

I've already put in my 2 cents back in the beginning of this thread, but I've been reading what's been going on in here and I must applaud Mr. PJammin'. From a biblical standpoint, I agree with him 100%. I keep my beliefs to myself as I find no reason to explain what I feel is right to anyone, but he nailed the truth according to God in every single post he made. I certainly admire and respect his conviction and passion. He didn't falter once.

Keep in mind, what he's been explaining is the word of God per the bible. If a person reads the bible and believes in God, this is what they deem to be the truth. I completely understand because I believe just as he does, with the exception of our views regarding homosexuality. Lots of strong views in here. It's been fun reading along.

deadnothingbetter · April 2007

Binaural wrote:

Fuck, this is infuriating, not you disagreeing with me but failing to understand:
ITS NOT LOVE BECAUDE GOD THREATHENS TO CUT YOU OFF FOR ETERNITY IF YOU SIN, BECAUSE THE RPENTENCE OPITION HAS A TIME FRAME

ease up on the testosterone's dude. it's not healthy. just relax and know that life is much more beautiful than a silly little discussion on the pearl jam forum.... besides we're all a bunch of little geeky nerds here not having any better to do than get on the pearljam forums and discuss silly topics. instaed of going out with your girlfriends and such or getting laid.

but on the other hand. would you get mad at the dalai lama for being much more understanding of his buddhist faith? or a guru for being much more informed of his hinduism? or what of a rabbi and his priesthood? and jewish traditions that date back thousands of years? would you feel condescended if they were more informed than you on those topics? or a muslim? get the picture? if you read the bible as much as i do and follow it's teachings than your level of understanding would be as much as mine which is really very little. but if you're getting upset of my comments that regard to you not understanding what i am saying well then let me try and tell you once again.

your of idea of "it's not love because God threatens to cut you off for eternity if you sin" is what i have explained away already. you are cut off cause of sin and by sin. not by God. God has opened the doors for everyone to enjoy freely of his promises. our problem is our unbelief... our unbelief to follow the teachings of christ. true. repentance option has a time frame but no one knows how that time frame is. it could be a million more years... i don't knwo. that's really not important. what is important is to understand that God never intended for us to go to hell. hell was not even meant for us. it was prepared for the devil and deaht and sin and all those things that cause bad things to us. unfortunately because sin is like a decaying bacteria that has entered our bodies it is killing us and taking us to etnrnal deaht with us. that is why our bodies die. that is why there are devastations. wars. hunger. sickness. depression. anger. things of that sort are symptoms of sin. now if you are like soulsinging taht would say, "oh but God is so powerful he should be able to do away with it himself." yes absolutely he can. but see our minds are completely hostile to the idea of this God... the one the Bible mentions. it's impossible for God to reveal himself to someone who doesn't believe. so that is why Christ is there to bring us an understanding that we are inherited with the nature of sin. there had to be a perfect man that would accomplish a perfect life for us since we were completely hopeless on that part. i could pull out so many scriptures to show this to you. however, something tells me that you will stick to the concept of "God does not love us because he threatens to destroy us if we sin." which i've already plainly shown to you how that concept is wrong.

but in the end, really, i'm not saying this to convice you that the bible is the truth. true. i believe it... i believe that our lives are in a state of corruption and anyone is prone to abandon you, leave you and whatnot. but since you are telling me that my God doesn't make sense and try to point out why my God doesn't make sense sounds as ridiculous as you telling a Rabbi why there shouldn't be rest on sabbath day or why it's ok to eat pork. my faith is my faith because it makes sense to me in certain particular ways and if it doesn't make sense to you i want you and soulsinging and everyone else to know that I respect that completely. i am a normal person. i like to hang out, talk about music, watch games and things of that sort. i am not a dogmatic person. i don't shun homosexuals away. but i have my beliefs. if anyone asks me about my beliefs i'll be glad to answer. but don't try to argue with me about how my faith doesn't make sense. cause you will lose that argument.

scw156 · April 2007

no one has answered a burning question for many people in this thread.

PJammin' says the Bible is God's literal, perfect word... verbatim... that he entrusted Luke, Mark, etc. to write it. I can buy that if I have to.

BUT they wrote it in Hebrew (thats what they spoke) and I assume PJammin' and the other people here use the King James version (if anyone can read Hebrew and reads the original Hebrew, my apologies).. well, there is proof that the King James version and the Hebrew are different, words are translated differently, etc. SO, either the King James version isn't the "perfect" word (cuz of the translation errors) OR if PJammin' wants to claim his English version is TRUTH then the Hebrew is wrong. Like I had stated like 8 times in this thread.. its a dilemma that you cannot deny... I'd like someones view on it to try to explain it.

PJammin' has just ignored it for the past 40 pages however.

Unfortunately, I can't hang around here. I have no power at my house from the storm last night and we aren't supposed to get electricity back until Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. Luckily there is a college computer lab kinda near my house. So I'll be back rarely to check for the answer!

Let there be light!

vmfury · April 2007

As so few can read the original languages, God's promise to preserve His Word has no practical relevance if it does not extend to translations. The Scripture frequently affirms"...that we are born again by the Word of God" James 1:18; 1 Corinthians 4:15; 1 Peter 1:23. If a translation cannot be equated with the actual Word of God, then ultimately this leads to the situation that one must know Hebrew and Greek before they can be saved, or built up in the faith. Romans 10:17; Matthew 4:4. Further, the Bible's use of the term "preserved" demonstrates that it is an absolute and not a relative term. To speak of the Bible, a translation as being "almost preserved" is a misnomer. Either it is preserved or it isn't, either it has errors or it doesn't. Either the flower fades and the grass withers or it does not.
One hundred years ago John Burgon wrote: "If you and I believe that the original writings of the Scriptures were verbally inspired by God, then of necessity they must have been providentially preserved through the ages."

The answer is simple and comes down to only one word. Faith. You either believe in it or you spend your time challenging it. If we all were wiped out today and the bible and God turned out to be a complete myth, the believers as well as non-believers have lost nothing, HOWEVER, if it's true, believers gain everything.

Binaural · April 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

ease up on the testosterone's dude. it's not healthy. just relax and know that life is much more beautiful than a silly little discussion on the pearl jam forum.... besides we're all a bunch of little geeky nerds here not having any better to do than get on the pearljam forums and discuss silly topics. instaed of going out with your girlfriends and such or getting laid.

but on the other hand. would you get mad at the dalai lama for being much more understanding of his buddhist faith? or a guru for being much more informed of his hinduism? or what of a rabbi and his priesthood? and jewish traditions that date back thousands of years? would you feel condescended if they were more informed than you on those topics? or a muslim? get the picture? if you read the bible as much as i do and follow it's teachings than your level of understanding would be as much as mine which is really very little. but if you're getting upset of my comments that regard to you not understanding what i am saying well then let me try and tell you once again.

your of idea of "it's not love because God threatens to cut you off for eternity if you sin" is what i have explained away already. you are cut off cause of sin and by sin. not by God. God has opened the doors for everyone to enjoy freely of his promises. our problem is our unbelief... our unbelief to follow the teachings of christ. true. repentance option has a time frame but no one knows how that time frame is. it could be a million more years... i don't knwo. that's really not important. what is important is to understand that God never intended for us to go to hell. hell was not even meant for us. it was prepared for the devil and deaht and sin and all those things that cause bad things to us. unfortunately because sin is like a decaying bacteria that has entered our bodies it is killing us and taking us to etnrnal deaht with us. that is why our bodies die. that is why there are devastations. wars. hunger. sickness. depression. anger. things of that sort are symptoms of sin. now if you are like soulsinging taht would say, "oh but God is so powerful he should be able to do away with it himself." yes absolutely he can. but see our minds are completely hostile to the idea of this God... the one the Bible mentions. it's impossible for God to reveal himself to someone who doesn't believe. so that is why Christ is there to bring us an understanding that we are inherited with the nature of sin. there had to be a perfect man that would accomplish a perfect life for us since we were completely hopeless on that part. i could pull out so many scriptures to show this to you. however, something tells me that you will stick to the concept of "God does not love us because he threatens to destroy us if we sin." which i've already plainly shown to you how that concept is wrong.

but in the end, really, i'm not saying this to convice you that the bible is the truth. true. i believe it... i believe that our lives are in a state of corruption and anyone is prone to abandon you, leave you and whatnot. but since you are telling me that my God doesn't make sense and try to point out why my God doesn't make sense sounds as ridiculous as you telling a Rabbi why there shouldn't be rest on sabbath day or why it's ok to eat pork. my faith is my faith because it makes sense to me in certain particular ways and if it doesn't make sense to you i want you and soulsinging and everyone else to know that I respect that completely. i am a normal person. i like to hang out, talk about music, watch games and things of that sort. i am not a dogmatic person. i don't shun homosexuals away. but i have my beliefs. if anyone asks me about my beliefs i'll be glad to answer. but don't try to argue with me about how my faith doesn't make sense. cause you will lose that argument.

I got pissed off becaused you used circular logic, which is infuriatingly nonsensical. Also you realise it takes a matter of seconds to post something and that I haven't been on 24hrs a day? So yes I know there's more imortant things than being on this forum however that doesn't mean I can't be passionate in what I type.
Would I get pissed at them? Yeah I would, the Dali Lama who granted several audiences to, and received a donation of more than $1 million from Shoko Asahara, leader of the Supreme Truth cult of Japan, and spreader of sarin gas in the Tokyo subway. Religion is a an opressive cancer that has blighted human kind for thousands of years and why? Because we're all afraid that if we make a big mistake on this planet that there's noone to clean it up. I mean think about it, why are so many religions carbon copies of each other? All of them promise paridise, eternal opulence because we're all so fucking greedy and materialistic, that no matter how charitable we are in life there's the big pay off when we die, a way of getting our 'reward'. I make no apologies for the strength of my oposition towards religion, it is forced on people every day and they become enslaved to it, I was brought up in a catholic school with absolultely no word of other religions and if I disagreed with something well lets say they weren't pleased. Religion is wrong and no amount of car boot sales for starving children will make up for that.

chopitdown · April 2007

scw156 wrote:

no one has answered a burning question for many people in this thread.

PJammin' says the Bible is God's literal, perfect word... verbatim... that he entrusted Luke, Mark, etc. to write it. I can buy that if I have to.

BUT they wrote it in Hebrew (thats what they spoke) and I assume PJammin' and the other people here use the King James version (if anyone can read Hebrew and reads the original Hebrew, my apologies).. well, there is proof that the King James version and the Hebrew are different, words are translated differently, etc. SO, either the King James version isn't the "perfect" word (cuz of the translation errors) OR if PJammin' wants to claim his English version is TRUTH then the Hebrew is wrong. Like I had stated like 8 times in this thread.. its a dilemma that you cannot deny... I'd like someones view on it to try to explain it.

Of course the King James Bible isn't perfect in some regards. There are multiple translations of the bible out there (NIV, NAS, KJV, newKJV etc...). Ideally when you study the Bible you should also have greek and hebrew concordances to help you figure out which meanings of words to use. There is a concept called semantic range that means words can have multiple meanings. In greek and hebrew there are some phrases that don't really have an easy english translation / concept. You also have to put the bible into historical context...how would the words have been understood AT THAT TIME. That is why reading / studying the Bible can be a very difficult task

here's a website that gives resources for Bible translation...the only reason I'm posting it is so you can see how much effort goes into the translations...do with it what you want.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/versbib11.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/gordon.html - translation theory.

PJammin' · April 2007

scw156 wrote:

no one has answered a burning question for many people in this thread.

mr. scw156, i've given appropriate answers to all of your replys, you just fail to find them. by calling me out, i have a feeling you enjoy talking to me, but it's just a guess.

PJammin' says the Bible is God's literal, perfect word... verbatim... that he entrusted Luke, Mark, etc. to write it. I can buy that if I have to.

God entrusted not only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also the other men of the Old Testament who He came to. i've already posted 2 Peter 1:20,21 which CLEARLY STATES that God's Word is not of ANY private interpretation. Proverbs 30:5,6 says:

EVERY word of God is PURE:
He is a shield to those who put
their trust in Him.
Do NOT add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be
FOUND a liar.

BUT they wrote it in Hebrew (thats what they spoke) and I assume PJammin' and the other people here use the King James version (if anyone can read Hebrew and reads the original Hebrew, my apologies).. well, there is proof that the King James version and the Hebrew are different, words are translated differently...

you are correct, i use a King James version, but i've studied under a Hebrew and Greek authority. other Christians have also put their thoughts behind your question. take out of it what you want. in closing i'll add:

For the word of God is LIVING and POWERFUL, and SHARPER than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.(Hebrews 4:12)

PJammin' · April 2007

vmfury wrote:

I've already put in my 2 cents back in the beginning of this thread, but I've been reading what's been going on in here and I must applaud Mr. PJammin'. From a biblical standpoint, I agree with him 100%. I keep my beliefs to myself as I find no reason to explain what I feel is right to anyone, but he nailed the truth according to God in every single post he made. I certainly admire and respect his conviction and passion. He didn't falter once.

i didn't expect that, but THANK YOU! i appreciate it.

Keep in mind, what he's been explaining is the word of God per the bible. If a person reads the bible and believes in God, this is what they deem to be the truth. I completely understand because I believe just as he does, with the exception of our views regarding homosexuality. Lots of strong views in here. It's been fun reading along.

i stick to my beliefs on this issue of homosexuality. each person, no matter what their sexual preference may be, deserves to be treated in love, but God clearly states it is a sin. if a person lives a gay lifestyle, they will not enter the Kingdom of God. no matter God's Word, they should NOT be mocked.

PJammin' · April 2007

hippiemom wrote:

Again with the circular logic. The bible is the word of god. How do we know that? Because god said so. Where did he say it? In the bible. For some reason I find this unconvincing.

Jesus said it, and Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. it's been determined that Jesus existed, but you don't believe that The Father was in Jesus, so therefore it is unconvincing to you(Luke20:17,18). i don't know what else to tell you. if Jesus came to you in the flesh, my guess is you'd still doubt. what can i say, your beliefs are yours and i accept it.

Matthew 13:19

I was taught that we are all god's children, believers and non-believers alike. Different churches, I guess.

no, that is not the truth. only believers of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the children. this addressed the issue of non-believers by Jesus:

"He who hears you(who Jesus personally appointed)hears Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him(God)who sent Me."(Luke 10:16)

My children are who they are. They can deny that they are mine, but I would know that they were wrong and would not stop loving them. I'd also be taking a long, hard look at myself to figure out what I'd done to make them deny their own mother. That's not natural behavior for children raised by loving parents. Barring mental illness, I assume the fault would lie with me.

God can't stop His love because He IS love. i can't express that enough. the ones denying God aren't His children. God looks at the heart.

Luke 18:17

Again, could be that we were just taught in different churches. The lesson I got was that we need redemption through Jesus because we are incapable of meeting god's standards on our own.

that lesson was true(John 14:6).

No, Jesus did not kill anyone, or ask anyone to kill, but one thing confuses me ... the constant disavowal of the Old Testament by Christians. Every Christian church I've ever been to still includes an old testament reading every Sunday, but when questioned, everyone tells me that the old testament doesn't count anymore.

the Old Testament is JUST as important as the New Testament. God is throughout the whole Bible. Jesus came to establish it all(Matthew 5:17).

So essentially, the message is "If you don't get it, too bad, that's your problem ... the well-being of your eternal soul is at stake here, but don't expect any help from me." Very loving indeed.

no, you're missing the message. the message is turn your heart to God and then He'll teach you to understand.

Look, this is all just academic to me, since obviously I don't believe a word of it, so I don't see any point in continuing the debate, unless you're truly bored and have nothing better to do You said your thing, I said mine, no one is changing minds here. I do respect you for the diligence with which you stand up for your beliefs

i had some time so i figured i'd get back to some of the points you made in your post.

Interesting thought I had.

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