Hugo Chavez

2

Comments

  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    Open wrote:
    this whole "dont like it then leave" mentality is very childish.

    As childish as the "If you support the war, sign up for the army" mentality?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    As childish as the "If you support the war, sign up for the army" mentality?
    Exactly. So, do you agree with the "if you don't like it, then leave" meme?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    Since when? Who said this, besides liberals trying to rationalize their actions?
    “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.” - Thomas Jefferson
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    IIf you hate this country, what it stands for, our President, and defend a pig like Chavez, an idiot like Chavez, and more of a devil than Bush can ever be, Fidel...why do you remain here in the U.S.?

    Of those of you who are always dissing this "Imperialistic" country, why don;t you just leave?

    So you equate America with the Bush administration then? They are one and the same thing in your opinion? If someone criticises the President then they are also criticising America? That's a strange way of looking at things. I thought that only fascist dictatorships promoted that notion??
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    you cannot defend a dictator like Chavez and then in the next breath, say that you love this country. It is senseless.

    Chavez is not a dictator. He was voted into power in a democratic process.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    Exactly. So, do you agree with the "if you don't like it, then leave" meme?

    No. I'm more of an advocate of "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up" mantra.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.” - Thomas Jefferson

    And that translates to "protest is patriotism" in your mind? Ok. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling over in his grave if he knew how the spirit of this quote has been distorted. You think Jefferson would support Americans who side with Chavez?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    No. I'm more of an advocate of "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up" mantra.
    How very unAmerican of you.

    Congress shall make no law ....... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    How very unAmerican of you.

    Congress shall make no law ....... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    Wow - a verbatim quote from the Constitution. I don't remember advocating that the government impose laws on freedom of speech. 1st Amendment applies to government-imposed restrictions only.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    And that translates to "protest is patriotism" in your mind? Ok. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling over in his grave if he knew how the spirit of this quote has been distorted. You think Jefferson would support Americans who side with Chavez?
    What part of “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all" don't you understand?
  • jsand wrote:
    No. I'm more of an advocate of "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up" mantra.


    I guess you didnt do a lot of talking during the 90's
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    Wow - a verbatim quote from the Constitution. I don't remember advocating that the government impose laws on freedom of speech. 1st Amendment applies to government-imposed restrictions only.
    O.K. then. You can tell protesters to "shut the fuck up." They can say, very simply, "no."
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    O.K. then. You can tell protesters to "shut the fuck up." They can say, very simply, "no."

    Uhh..yeah. No shit.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    What part of “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all" don't you understand?

    Yup. To protest is to be a patriot. Keep telling yourself that.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jsand wrote:
    Since when? Who said this, besides liberals trying to rationalize their actions?

    So you believe that governments should not be criticised, and that protest should be abolished. That means that the sort of country which you would prefer to live in is something along the lines of 1930's Nazi Germany or of Russia under Stalin. Interesting.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    Uhh..yeah. No shit.
    Personally, I don't see much difference between "If you support the war, join the army" , "If you don't like it, leave", and "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up."

    The first two lines imply that the speaker should have to join the army or have to leave. So, it seems to me, you think they should have to shut the fuck up.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    Byrnzie wrote:
    So you believe that governments should not be criticised, and that protest should be abolished. That means that the sort of country which you would prefer to live in is something along the lines of 1930's Nazi Germany or of Russia under Stalin. Interesting.

    Way to take my statements out of context. Good job.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    But that doesn't obscure the fact that he's still a dangerous man hiding behind a Socialist facade, and the fact that Bush is not a dictator, because the system won't permit it.

    Please be kind enough to elaborate. You say Chavez is "...a dangerous man hiding behind a Socialist facade.." Please provide details.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    Personally, I don't see much difference between "If you support the war, join the army" , "If you don't like it, leave", and "If you don't like it, shut the fuck up."

    The first two lines imply that the speaker should have to join the army or have to leave. So, it seems to me, you think they should have to shut the fuck up.

    I am just sick of hearing Bush-hatred, and how Bush is the devil, and how Chavez is great, 24-7. While I do not think protesting (or free speech) should be banned, I don't believe doing so constitutes patriotism.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jsand wrote:
    Way to take my statements out of context. Good job.

    O.k then, feel free to place your statements in whatever context you deem appropriate and explain what you mean. You have said that protest is not patriotic. So what alternative are you proposing?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    Yup. To protest is to be a patriot. Keep telling yourself that.
    Patriotism is a mental state that can't really be quantified. If you feel that the enemy of the country you love so much is that country's government, then you're damn right protest is patriotism. If you feel that the government is working in the nation's best interest, then protest isn't patriotic. If all you do is wave a flag, then you're merely someone's useful idiot.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    Patriotism is a mental state that can't really be quantified. If you feel that the enemy of the country you love so much is that country's government, then you're damn right protest is patriotism. If you feel that the government is working in the nation's best interest, then protest isn't patriotic. If all you do is wave a flag, then you're merely someone's useful idiot.

    Ever stop and think that when you blame Bush for everything wrong in the world, and side with fascists such as Chavez, you are the enemy's useful idiot?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    RainDog wrote:
    Patriotism is a mental state that can't really be quantified. If you feel that the enemy of the country you love so much is that country's government, then you're damn right protest is patriotism. If you feel that the government is working in the nation's best interest, then protest isn't patriotic. If all you do is wave a flag, then you're merely someone's useful idiot.

    Well said!
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    RainDog wrote:
    If you feel that the government is working in the nation's best interest, then protest isn't patriotic.

    How does this jive with your assertion that protest is patriotic, then?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    Ever stop and think that when you blame Bush for everything wrong in the world, and side with fascists such as Chavez, you are the enemy's useful idiot?
    First off, Chavez is a socialist, not a fascist - though perhaps we're just splitting hairs.

    Second, I don't blame Bush for everything wrong in the world. I think he's done a lot to harm our national character, and that's accidently put me in agreement with some of the things Chavez has said. That doesn't mean I support Chavez. I simply support his right to say what he does whether he would afford me the same luxury or not. Moral consistency, you understand.

    Third, yes, it is entirely possible to be someone else's idiot besides Bush's. More often than not, though, useful idiots are useful to both sides.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jsand wrote:
    Ever stop and think that when you blame Bush for everything wrong in the world, and side with fascists such as Chavez, you are the enemy's useful idiot?

    I've personally never blamed Bush for everything wrong in the world. I don't believe that Bush is omnipotent, and omnipresent. He doesn't have that much power. The fact is that he's probably not even aware of a lot of his administrations policies. He is a mouth piece for those who are pulling the strings behind him in the corridors of power. The fact that he's not even an efficient mouthpiece is, I expect, a matter of some embarrassment for those of his own party.
    Quite frankly, Bush is a giddy frat boy President who would have been better suited to working as a childrens entertainer at Disneyworld.
    As far as Chavez being a fascist, can someone please explain how he qualifies as such? I don't see the connection.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    jsand wrote:
    How does this jive with your assertion that protest is patriotic, then?
    I said protest can be patriotic, and often is. It's not an absolute, though. Suppression of protest, however, by the very nature of our First Amendment, is always unpatriotic.
  • mdigenakismdigenakis Posts: 1,337
    You have a point, we shouldn't complain if we reap the benefits. Everybody in this country reap the rewards of an imperialism. Every cubicle stationed employee would sacrifice morailty for the greed and power that politics can bring you. Guys like Bush and Cheney look at every U.S. citizen like children, because they tell us everything is ok and practically put us to bed at night. If your liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, it just dosen't matter. Our DEMAND alone gives these people power. Leaders in the 3rd world, such as Chavez, claim that they don't blame the citizens of this wonderful country. Maybe they should. Omar Torrijos loved us and our ideals, but damn it if he didn't get in the way. Don't blame Bush and Cheney, i don't, i blame myself, so should you. Everybody in this country knows that something is wrong. I'm sure of that. Ever think what would happen if the actions of these elected greedy politicians were exposed. Would paradise just roll in. There might be a simple solution to all this, i don't know what it is. I don't think anyone does.

    "I'm ahead, I'm a man
    I'm the first mammal to wear pants, yeah
    I'm at peace with my lust
    I can kill 'cause in God I trust, yeah
    It's evolution, baby"
    "Don't let the darkness eat you up..."

    -Greg Dulli

  • 1970RR1970RR Posts: 281
    RainDog wrote:
    Patriotism is a mental state that can't really be quantified. If you feel that the enemy of the country you love so much is that country's government, then you're damn right protest is patriotism. If you feel that the government is working in the nation's best interest, then protest isn't patriotic. If all you do is wave a flag, then you're merely someone's useful idiot.
    Here is a review on a book about this very subject:
    http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/books/the_patriotism_of_no_postopbooks_nick_gillespie.htm
  • jsand wrote:
    Ever stop and think that when you blame Bush for everything wrong in the world, and side with fascists such as Chavez, you are the enemy's useful idiot?


    I think this statement is very well put.

    Critisize Bush, or Clinton, or our next President, whomever it may be.

    What I see wrong is allowing a pig like Chavez who worships Fidel Castro (which says it all) to come into our soil and speak to Americans about our President and our country. Insulting our president on our soil is disrespectful to all Americans, not just Bush. That is what a lot of people don't understand. Do you think an American would be able to stand on Venezuelan soil and call Chavez the devil?
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