And the insurrection has grown from the first time the US set its foot in Iraq until today. If the insurrection has gotten stronger every year we have been there, is there not some reason in saying the insurrection has been aided by our continued presence? And if it has been aided by our continued presence, is it not in the interest of the insurgents for us to maintain our presence? The history has shown insurgent power has expanded in the presence of US troops.
They are not just attacking each other, they are attacking american troops. October was one of the bloodiest for american soldiers. We have become targets in Iraq, terrorists use it as a training ground.
This will happen regardless, and already is. Does any one really expect that the dominant Shia voting bloc is going to turn Iraq into a pluralist democracy? Is it really possible that an organization like The Supreme Council For The Islamic Revolution In Iraq, is going to turn into a liberal democratic organization? Dawa, the party of the acting Iraqi prime minister was a virtual wing of Hezbollah when in exile. Do we really expect it to pal up with Israel?
There are senior military officials in Iraq who state there is no military solution. And the people of Iraq overwhelmingly want us to leave. Benchmarks and goals are fine if they are accomplished, but what if they aren't? What do war supporters think is going to happen? Is there any historical precedent for a severely fractionated country turning into a democracy at gunpoint? No
I don't think the goal at this point is to turn Iraq into a pluralistic democracy. But there are alternatives between trying to turn it into the U.S. or letting it become a theocracy or dictatorship. Look at Jordan or Turkey for example. These countries aren't exactly the beacon of freedom in the Middle East, but they are a far cry from other regimes in the region.
We cannot afford to let Iraq slip into the fold of Iran, Syria or Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a mess right now becuase we did not properly secure the country from the begining. Almost all oportunites to right the ship have been squandered by this incompetent administration, but there is still a chance.
I'm not optimistic, I'm just saying it's possible. I'm not a war monger, and I don't own energy stock. I just know that another country that outlaws all religions except a firebrand version of Islam and sits on a large portion of the world's most precious resource is not a good thing for the Democratic world.
Staying in Iraq does not gurantee us anything, and indeed may make things worse. But leaving will surely create more problems. I would rather stay and try to make things right.
Wow, that sounds like some pretty sound logic... "There are already countries who threaten Democracy and the Western way of life, so what's the difference if Iraq becomes one too?"
What are our ways of dealing with these countries who threaten us? The U.N. sure isn't going to do anything, if history has been any guide. Other countries aren't going to help the United States bear the burden of protecting democracy and free-market economies, even thought they have enjoyed freedom and prospered finanically thanks to our sacrifices.
We struck a deal with North Korea, and they just turned around and blackmailed us by continuing their nuclear program. The U.N. is proving totally inept at trying to persuade Iran from not developing nuclear weapons.
They couldn't do anything about Saddam violating 17 of their resolutions.
Please tell me what our "options" are? Looks to me like we only have bad choices and worse choices in dealing with these countries. If you know of something I don't, please enlighten me!
North Korea has nuclear weapons and Iran has a nuclear program, yes.
The United States has a nuclear program.
Please explain the exact problem we have with them - what they may have done - or what you fear they may do and why. And how our continued occupation of Iraq helps.
North Korea has nuclear weapons and Iran has a nuclear program, yes.
The United States has a nuclear program.
Please explain the exact problem we have with them - what they may have done - or what you fear they may do and why. And how our continued occupation of Iraq helps.
I think you may have missed my point. I'm just saying that staying in Iraq sucks, but we have no viable alternatives if we want to keep the country from becoming a safe-haven for terrorists and Islamic extremist.
I brought up Iran and North Korea as examples of countries who clearly threaten the world, yet nobody will do anything to stop them.
I think you may have missed my point. I'm just saying that staying in Iraq sucks, but we have no viable alternatives if we want to keep the country from becoming a safe-haven for terrorists and Islamic extremist.
I brought up Iran and North Korea as examples of countries who clearly threaten the world, yet nobody will do anything to stop them.
...
Here's an idea...
How about we set up camp in Afghanistan? I mean, we really should have finished that JOB in the first place... got it up and running at 90% to 99%.
We can still project our military presence and surveillance operations on Iran from there.
We will be out of the way of the impending and inevitable ethnic/sectarian clashes in Iraq as that country moves towards its own soverignty. If Civil War is part of Iraq's process to right itself, who are we to stop it? At least, we will be in the neighborhood so it does not spill over into neighboring countries.
I also think we need to mend the harm done to America's image in both Europe and the Middle East. We need NATO to assist us and we need co-operation from the Arab nations who have a clear understanding of arabic history, culture, customs, religion and language.
...
as for Iran and North Korea... the message that is being received... you'd better have nuclear weapons so the U.S. will not invade you. Not quite the message we send... or the way we want it... but it's the way it's perceived.
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...
Here's an idea...
How about we set up camp in Afghanistan? I mean, we really should have finished that JOB in the first place... got it up and running at 90% to 99%.
We can still project our military presence and surveillance operations on Iran from there.
We will be out of the way of the impending and inevitable ethnic/sectarian clashes in Iraq as that country moves towards its own soverignty. If Civil War is part of Iraq's process to right itself, who are we to stop it? At least, we will be in the neighborhood so it does not spill over into neighboring countries.
I also think we need to mend the harm done to America's image in both Europe and the Middle East. We need NATO to assist us and we need co-operation from the Arab nations who have a clear understanding of arabic history, culture, customs, religion and language.
.
...
Here's an idea...
How about we set up camp in Afghanistan? I mean, we really should have finished that JOB in the first place... got it up and running at 90% to 99%.
We can still project our military presence and surveillance operations on Iran from there.
We will be out of the way of the impending and inevitable ethnic/sectarian clashes in Iraq as that country moves towards its own soverignty. If Civil War is part of Iraq's process to right itself, who are we to stop it? At least, we will be in the neighborhood so it does not spill over into neighboring countries.
I also think we need to mend the harm done to America's image in both Europe and the Middle East. We need NATO to assist us and we need co-operation from the Arab nations who have a clear understanding of arabic history, culture, customs, religion and language.
...
as for Iran and North Korea... the message that is being received... you'd better have nuclear weapons so the U.S. will not invade you. Not quite the message we send... or the way we want it... but it's the way it's perceived.
Well said. I pretty much agree with you.
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I think you may have missed my point. I'm just saying that staying in Iraq sucks, but we have no viable alternatives if we want to keep the country from becoming a safe-haven for terrorists and Islamic extremist.
I brought up Iran and North Korea as examples of countries who clearly threaten the world, yet nobody will do anything to stop them.
But my point was that we are actually a far greater threat to the world than Iran and Korea. they have not attacked anyone.
and the fact is that Iraq only became a safe haven for terrorists since we got there. If we leave they will take care of that. right now they are inviting the help
But my point was that we are actually a far greater threat to the world than Iran and Korea. they have not attacked anyone.
and the fact is that Iraq only became a safe haven for terrorists since we got there. If we leave they will take care of that. right now they are inviting the help
Iran has said they want israel wiped off the map. that certainly quaifies them as a threat to do so.
I have an honest question to ask anyone who supports the US led occupation of Iraq, especially thouse who do believe we need to "stay the course".
Given that the situation has deteriorated so badly and that the US military is now stretched so thin, why would you not enlist your services? What speaks against your doing so if you support these actions and want to see "good" prevail?
1) It's bad that terrorists still strike and we have some of our brave men and women dying, but we are not losing. Saying "the situation has deteriorated so badly" isn't a completely accurate assessment of what is happening in Iraq, though I can understand why many think that given the exclusive coverage of negative events by the media.
2) Your assessment that the military is stretched so thin thus those that support the war should join the other heros in Iraq is completely innacrruate and not intellecutally honest for you to claim so. The military has consistantly met its recruitment goals over the past few years and re-enlistment rates are higher than ever.
The other thing I think we need to do... admit our mistakes.
I give a whole lot of respect for the man that steps up and admits it when he's done something wrong and tries to right it. I have very little respect for the weasley little asshole that makes excuses or pretends he didn't do anything wrong. Whether it's President Clinton saying he didn't get a blow job from Monica or President Bush claiming Iraq as a success story and not admitting that mistakes and miscalculations were made by his administration, which he takes full responsibility for.
I think if Bush got out there and said, "Hey... I fucked up. I'm sorry. Now, we need your help to get this thing straightened out" to the country and the world community, then, I think we can begin to heal. The more he keeps lying to me, the more he convinces me that he is not the best thing for America. He keeps blaming everyone else for our problems... but, you know what? I didn't send one soldier to Iraq.
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The other thing I think we need to do... admit our mistakes.
I give a whole lot of respect for the man that steps up and admits it when he's done something wrong and tries to right it. I have very little respect for the weasley little asshole that makes excuses or pretends he didn't do anything wrong. Whether it's President Clinton saying he didn't get a blow job from Monica or President Bush claiming Iraq as a success story and not admitting that mistakes and miscalculations were made by his administration, which he takes full responsibility for.
I think if Bush got out there and said, "Hey... I fucked up. I'm sorry. Now, we need your help to get this thing straightened out" to the country and the world community, then, I think we can begin to heal. The more he keeps lying to me, the more he convinces me that he is not the best thing for America. He keeps blaming everyone else for our problems... but, you know what? I didn't send one soldier to Iraq.
Well put, Cosmo. We will all be skiing in hell before a politician would ever do something like this (at least while still in office)
Iran has said they want israel wiped off the map. that certainly quaifies them as a threat to do so.
We mix political rhetoric for fact in America.. very badly. We lie so often in our oun politics - then we pick and chose the political statement for other nations and use them as facts.
The Middle East is still pissed about the Israel thing.... They have a right to be - and they will make these claims. They are political - for their people - much like Bushies had "Liberals".. as though the president of the United States only represents republicans.
We thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction - must of the "proof" they use as excuses are political statements from other countries aimed at the helpless country of Iraq - whom nobody would defend or question.
I am sorry, but that is not a real threat - and we can not pretend it is from one side of our mouth and refuse to talk to them from the other.
Iran has not attacked Israel - as far as I know their only military actions were wars with bordoring countries. Sure then fund Hezbalah.. but hell, look who the United States funds.
We need stop making bogus political statements if we are to presume to take every other political leaders comments literally.
We need to look at it intelligently - access capability and access the motives. Iran gains nothing from Nuking Israel - because they know there would be an actual coalition - and it will crush them.
If we continue to assume everyone else in the world are ignorant - we will continue to act ignorantly - and live in a shit world.
There is absolutely no reason to continue to insult Iraq -and continue to preserve the chaos and lawlessness for bullshit reasons.
We also need to stop acting like high school children and go to the table with any nation that wishes to talk.
We would do good to recognize the rights of other nations and other peoples decisions - even if we don't understand them. We need to look at military threats scientifically - and not play politics with war.
We need to stop pretending the poor people in Iraq want to hurt America with all of their being but are too stupid to get a plain ticket and figure out a way to hurt us at home.
We are Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo not safe at home! If there were really thousands or even hundreds of men - well funded - bent on hurting us and willing to give their lives to do so - then we'd be seriously hurting.
We need to stop lying.. deal with actual threat - and stop giving Osama Bin Laden supernatural status. He is a common thug...
and in general - any ten people you randomly scoop up from anywhere in the entire world - and equally good as the people of the United States.
We make fun of the politics we see during elections - yet we spew the same bullshit here - because we want to believe it for one reason or the other.
...I understand perfectly well that Blair has reduced this country to a poodle of the U.S. However, the power, and influence lays on your side of the pond. Hence my aiming the brunt of my criticism westwards.
My how times have changed...
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
i am talking about the average american...the american who sits here and tells me or whoever that this war in iraq is good because that's what the people in iraq want...you cannot simply say that they want freedom...you first have to define freedom...because, as we are keenly aware in this country, freedom means different things, vastly different things, to different people. so, what is it that YOU think people in other countries (say, iraq, for example) are striving for? is it the u.s.'s brand of capitalist driven freedom? fear driven freedom? what is it?
I believe freedom is being able to live one's life free of oppression from their own government. Living life with a free will so long as it abides by fair laws set forth by the government for which they live under. That is a right that each person who walks the earth should have.
I also believe it is not up to anyone else to debate the extremes of such freedoms that any particular walk of life deserves to have. Freedom should be a right of birth. What Saddam was running in Iraq was nothing anyone should be forced to be born into. To compare the United States government to that of which Saddam was in control of is just foolish. It may be hip, or cool, or something foreign countries choose to do because they don't possess the intestinal fortitude this country has. What I will say, is that this country since it's founding has attempted to spread the same freedoms and liberties that we have to all people around the world. We haven't always made the correct decisions in enforcing this basic wish that we have for those less fortunate but it has almost entirely been done with the best of intentions (For we know just how fortunate we are to live in this great country). Perhaps that's why our soldiers are so willing to lay down their lives for peoples who are but foreign strangers. Do we always get it right? No. Hell, we armed Saddam in the 80's. Are we proud of it? No. Did we think it was the right thing to do then? Yes. Are we probably paying for what we helped build now? Yes. The fact of the matter is we are dealing with something that we helped sow, and so on. No one likes war. But we, as American citizens, love and admire those who die for not only our freedoms but for the freedoms of everyone around the world. That is something that we do not take lightly and when those from other countries choose to make light of that very subject through whatever means, it angers us. I believe that is something that those from both sides of the aisle in thise country can relate to. Anger or not, the basic principle we have for looking out and protecting the weak around the world will probably be something we will always do as long as we're a nation capable of doing it.
This probably could have been worded a little better but I hope the intent of it can be seen. It's not a petition against any particular view, religion or nationality.
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
I believe freedom is being able to live one's life free of oppression from their own government. Living life with a free will so long as it abides by fair laws set forth by the government for which they live under. That is a right that each person who walks the earth should have.
I also believe it is not up to anyone else to debate the extremes of such freedoms that any particular walk of life deserves to have. Freedom should be a right of birth. What Saddam was running in Iraq was nothing anyone should be forced to be born into. To compare the United States government to that of which Saddam was in control of is just foolish. It may be hip, or cool, or something foreign countries choose to do because they don't possess the intestinal fortitude this country has. What I will say, is that this country since it's founding has attempted to spread the same freedoms and liberties that we have to all people around the world. We haven't always made the correct decisions in enforcing this basic wish that we have for those less fortunate but it has almost entirely been done with the best of intentions (For we know just how fortunate we are to live in this great country). Perhaps that's why our soldiers are so willing to lay down their lives for peoples who are but foreign strangers. Do we always get it right? No. Hell, we armed Saddam in the 80's. Are we proud of it? No. Did we think it was the right thing to do then? Yes. Are we probably paying for what we helped build now? Yes. The fact of the matter is we are dealing with something that we helped sow, and so on. No one likes war. But we, as American citizens, love and admire those who die for not only our freedoms but for the freedoms of everyone around the world. That is something that we do not take lightly and when those from other countries choose to make light of that very subject through whatever means, it angers us. I believe that is something that those from both sides of the aisle in thise country can relate to. Anger or not, the basic principle we have for looking out and protecting the weak around the world will probably be something we will always do as long as we're a nation capable of doing it.
This probably could have been worded a little better but I hope the intent of it can be seen. It's not a petition against any particular view, religion or nationality.
I agree with you that we are generally people with good intensions.
I do not agree that we try to share our freedoms. We try to protect them first - and we wonder why people don't try to emulate us.
However, our assumptions that others are less well intentioned is what is wrong. Our negative interpretation of others leads us to actions that are not so admirable.
our manipulative politics lead our conscious to think in such a way that leads us astray. We are human beings - other countries do the same in their decpictions of us to their population for political reasons.
We are lost because of our inability to see though our own lies. By We, I mean all of mankind.
The best way to find peace is to stop accepting deception as a way of life.
it just amazes me how people from other countries seem to know exactly what is going on in America.
absolutely no democracy to speak of? wow those are bold words.
Going back a little way but i've only just got into the debate, this really caught my eye.
Jlew dont be amazed that people from other countries know whats going in other/your, wotever terminology you want to use, country. Its easy to explain, because a lot of people from all over the world including the US look outwards of there own borders before debating the world situation. Its just a shame for the US that they have so many that just love to soundbite and show off they're ability to speak without ever really giving a shit.
in my opinion every country gets the government it deserves, whether thru the vote, revolt or movement. Its all dependant on the people, and right now iraq are coming together to fight for wot they want, there country back, thats honourable, the US/UK stance??? well.....
P.S oh yeah and Jlew, Trappedinmyradio ripped u the fuck apart on that one man hahaha totally destroyed, i fucking loved reading it-) haha serious!
I would like to think freedom is a better choice then some brutal dictator but your right, maybe they dont want that. what do we know.
you forget that the war was not made to free the iraqi people. It was made for the WMD.
Also, where was the interest for the human rights in iraq before the invasion?
I have an honest question to ask anyone who supports the US led occupation of Iraq, especially thouse who do believe we need to "stay the course".
Given that the situation has deteriorated so badly and that the US military is now stretched so thin, why would you not enlist your services? What speaks against your doing so if you support these actions and want to see "good" prevail?
The U.S.Army is not thin.Were did u read that. In answer to youre question,If the draft were reinstated, i would be proud to support my country and fight for the freedom's we all have.
I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
The U.S.Army is not thin.Were did u read that. In answer to youre question,If the draft were reinstated, i would be proud to support my country and fight for the freedom's we all have.
Theres not going to be a draft, of course there isnt, not even a little bit, so thats a fairly easy thing for you to say.
Why would we go and fight for the freedom of the Iraqi people like so many people are suggesting? How many nations around the world could we then go and fight for exactly the same reason? Absolute Bollocks!!
Out of all the nations where the people are oppressed and human rights non existent we chose Iraq?? with a pin in a map??
The war was waged because of alleged WMD and links to Al Quaeda, official end of story. Both things have been officially admitted as being wrong.
The U.S.Army is not thin.Were did u read that. In answer to youre question,If the draft were reinstated, i would be proud to support my country and fight for the freedom's we all have.
There's not going to be a draft, but you're in luck ... they take volunteers!
Why would we go and fight for the freedom of the Iraqi people like so many people are suggesting? How many nations around the world could we then go and fight for exactly the same reason? Absolute Bollocks!!
Out of all the nations where the people are oppressed and human rights non existent we chose Iraq?? with a pin in a map??
The war was waged because of alleged WMD and links to Al Quaeda, official end of story. Both things have been officially admitted as being wrong.
the new york times, of all things, disagrees...
"Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
"Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
Ok no problem we can cling on to the WMD spin if u so wish, however my main point was the massive swing towards the freedom aspect when the WMD's evaporated into thin air ( as they do, but usually making more noise and causing more damage), and tenuous links to Al Quaeda pretty much forgotten.
Which oppressed countries people are to be granted our "freedom" next? plenty to choose from.
Ok no problem we can cling on to the WMD spin if u so wish, however my main point was the massive swing towards the freedom aspect when the WMD's evaporated into thin air ( as they do, but usually making more noise and causing more damage), and tenuous links to Al Quaeda pretty much forgotten.
Which oppressed countries people are to be granted our "freedom" next? plenty to choose from.
I got an idea, how about America?! haha-)
if only we could help them all (snide comments about bush and methodology aside).....or if only nobody needed any help....
but, sadly, humans took away my innocent belief in utopia long ago. people suck
What I will say, is that this country since it's founding has attempted to spread the same freedoms and liberties that we have to all people around the world. We haven't always made the correct decisions in enforcing this basic wish that we have for those less fortunate but it has almost entirely been done with the best of intentions (For we know just how fortunate we are to live in this great country).
Please provide just one example of this militaristic altruism. Just one.
"Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
On March 16, after the documents’ release was approved, Mr. Negroponte’s office issued a terse public announcement including a disclaimer that remained on the Web site: “The U.S. government has made no determination regarding the authenticity of the documents, validity or factual accuracy of the information contained therein, or the quality of any translations, when available.”
Comments
I don't think the goal at this point is to turn Iraq into a pluralistic democracy. But there are alternatives between trying to turn it into the U.S. or letting it become a theocracy or dictatorship. Look at Jordan or Turkey for example. These countries aren't exactly the beacon of freedom in the Middle East, but they are a far cry from other regimes in the region.
We cannot afford to let Iraq slip into the fold of Iran, Syria or Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a mess right now becuase we did not properly secure the country from the begining. Almost all oportunites to right the ship have been squandered by this incompetent administration, but there is still a chance.
I'm not optimistic, I'm just saying it's possible. I'm not a war monger, and I don't own energy stock. I just know that another country that outlaws all religions except a firebrand version of Islam and sits on a large portion of the world's most precious resource is not a good thing for the Democratic world.
Staying in Iraq does not gurantee us anything, and indeed may make things worse. But leaving will surely create more problems. I would rather stay and try to make things right.
North Korea has nuclear weapons and Iran has a nuclear program, yes.
The United States has a nuclear program.
Please explain the exact problem we have with them - what they may have done - or what you fear they may do and why. And how our continued occupation of Iraq helps.
I think you may have missed my point. I'm just saying that staying in Iraq sucks, but we have no viable alternatives if we want to keep the country from becoming a safe-haven for terrorists and Islamic extremist.
I brought up Iran and North Korea as examples of countries who clearly threaten the world, yet nobody will do anything to stop them.
Here's an idea...
How about we set up camp in Afghanistan? I mean, we really should have finished that JOB in the first place... got it up and running at 90% to 99%.
We can still project our military presence and surveillance operations on Iran from there.
We will be out of the way of the impending and inevitable ethnic/sectarian clashes in Iraq as that country moves towards its own soverignty. If Civil War is part of Iraq's process to right itself, who are we to stop it? At least, we will be in the neighborhood so it does not spill over into neighboring countries.
I also think we need to mend the harm done to America's image in both Europe and the Middle East. We need NATO to assist us and we need co-operation from the Arab nations who have a clear understanding of arabic history, culture, customs, religion and language.
...
as for Iran and North Korea... the message that is being received... you'd better have nuclear weapons so the U.S. will not invade you. Not quite the message we send... or the way we want it... but it's the way it's perceived.
Hail, Hail!!!
great points. I have always felt this way
Well said. I pretty much agree with you.
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But my point was that we are actually a far greater threat to the world than Iran and Korea. they have not attacked anyone.
and the fact is that Iraq only became a safe haven for terrorists since we got there. If we leave they will take care of that. right now they are inviting the help
Iran has said they want israel wiped off the map. that certainly quaifies them as a threat to do so.
1) It's bad that terrorists still strike and we have some of our brave men and women dying, but we are not losing. Saying "the situation has deteriorated so badly" isn't a completely accurate assessment of what is happening in Iraq, though I can understand why many think that given the exclusive coverage of negative events by the media.
2) Your assessment that the military is stretched so thin thus those that support the war should join the other heros in Iraq is completely innacrruate and not intellecutally honest for you to claim so. The military has consistantly met its recruitment goals over the past few years and re-enlistment rates are higher than ever.
That's all I wanted to add.
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I give a whole lot of respect for the man that steps up and admits it when he's done something wrong and tries to right it. I have very little respect for the weasley little asshole that makes excuses or pretends he didn't do anything wrong. Whether it's President Clinton saying he didn't get a blow job from Monica or President Bush claiming Iraq as a success story and not admitting that mistakes and miscalculations were made by his administration, which he takes full responsibility for.
I think if Bush got out there and said, "Hey... I fucked up. I'm sorry. Now, we need your help to get this thing straightened out" to the country and the world community, then, I think we can begin to heal. The more he keeps lying to me, the more he convinces me that he is not the best thing for America. He keeps blaming everyone else for our problems... but, you know what? I didn't send one soldier to Iraq.
Hail, Hail!!!
I know... but, one can still dream, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
We mix political rhetoric for fact in America.. very badly. We lie so often in our oun politics - then we pick and chose the political statement for other nations and use them as facts.
The Middle East is still pissed about the Israel thing.... They have a right to be - and they will make these claims. They are political - for their people - much like Bushies had "Liberals".. as though the president of the United States only represents republicans.
We thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction - must of the "proof" they use as excuses are political statements from other countries aimed at the helpless country of Iraq - whom nobody would defend or question.
I am sorry, but that is not a real threat - and we can not pretend it is from one side of our mouth and refuse to talk to them from the other.
Iran has not attacked Israel - as far as I know their only military actions were wars with bordoring countries. Sure then fund Hezbalah.. but hell, look who the United States funds.
We need stop making bogus political statements if we are to presume to take every other political leaders comments literally.
We need to look at it intelligently - access capability and access the motives. Iran gains nothing from Nuking Israel - because they know there would be an actual coalition - and it will crush them.
If we continue to assume everyone else in the world are ignorant - we will continue to act ignorantly - and live in a shit world.
There is absolutely no reason to continue to insult Iraq -and continue to preserve the chaos and lawlessness for bullshit reasons.
We also need to stop acting like high school children and go to the table with any nation that wishes to talk.
We would do good to recognize the rights of other nations and other peoples decisions - even if we don't understand them. We need to look at military threats scientifically - and not play politics with war.
We need to stop pretending the poor people in Iraq want to hurt America with all of their being but are too stupid to get a plain ticket and figure out a way to hurt us at home.
We are Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo not safe at home! If there were really thousands or even hundreds of men - well funded - bent on hurting us and willing to give their lives to do so - then we'd be seriously hurting.
We need to stop lying.. deal with actual threat - and stop giving Osama Bin Laden supernatural status. He is a common thug...
and in general - any ten people you randomly scoop up from anywhere in the entire world - and equally good as the people of the United States.
We make fun of the politics we see during elections - yet we spew the same bullshit here - because we want to believe it for one reason or the other.
My how times have changed...
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
I believe freedom is being able to live one's life free of oppression from their own government. Living life with a free will so long as it abides by fair laws set forth by the government for which they live under. That is a right that each person who walks the earth should have.
I also believe it is not up to anyone else to debate the extremes of such freedoms that any particular walk of life deserves to have. Freedom should be a right of birth. What Saddam was running in Iraq was nothing anyone should be forced to be born into. To compare the United States government to that of which Saddam was in control of is just foolish. It may be hip, or cool, or something foreign countries choose to do because they don't possess the intestinal fortitude this country has. What I will say, is that this country since it's founding has attempted to spread the same freedoms and liberties that we have to all people around the world. We haven't always made the correct decisions in enforcing this basic wish that we have for those less fortunate but it has almost entirely been done with the best of intentions (For we know just how fortunate we are to live in this great country). Perhaps that's why our soldiers are so willing to lay down their lives for peoples who are but foreign strangers. Do we always get it right? No. Hell, we armed Saddam in the 80's. Are we proud of it? No. Did we think it was the right thing to do then? Yes. Are we probably paying for what we helped build now? Yes. The fact of the matter is we are dealing with something that we helped sow, and so on. No one likes war. But we, as American citizens, love and admire those who die for not only our freedoms but for the freedoms of everyone around the world. That is something that we do not take lightly and when those from other countries choose to make light of that very subject through whatever means, it angers us. I believe that is something that those from both sides of the aisle in thise country can relate to. Anger or not, the basic principle we have for looking out and protecting the weak around the world will probably be something we will always do as long as we're a nation capable of doing it.
This probably could have been worded a little better but I hope the intent of it can be seen. It's not a petition against any particular view, religion or nationality.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
I agree with you that we are generally people with good intensions.
I do not agree that we try to share our freedoms. We try to protect them first - and we wonder why people don't try to emulate us.
However, our assumptions that others are less well intentioned is what is wrong. Our negative interpretation of others leads us to actions that are not so admirable.
our manipulative politics lead our conscious to think in such a way that leads us astray. We are human beings - other countries do the same in their decpictions of us to their population for political reasons.
We are lost because of our inability to see though our own lies. By We, I mean all of mankind.
The best way to find peace is to stop accepting deception as a way of life.
Going back a little way but i've only just got into the debate, this really caught my eye.
Jlew dont be amazed that people from other countries know whats going in other/your, wotever terminology you want to use, country. Its easy to explain, because a lot of people from all over the world including the US look outwards of there own borders before debating the world situation. Its just a shame for the US that they have so many that just love to soundbite and show off they're ability to speak without ever really giving a shit.
in my opinion every country gets the government it deserves, whether thru the vote, revolt or movement. Its all dependant on the people, and right now iraq are coming together to fight for wot they want, there country back, thats honourable, the US/UK stance??? well.....
P.S oh yeah and Jlew, Trappedinmyradio ripped u the fuck apart on that one man hahaha totally destroyed, i fucking loved reading it-) haha serious!
vision oOnly Greyyy
Also, where was the interest for the human rights in iraq before the invasion?
www.amnesty.org.uk
www.amnesty.org.uk
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
Theres not going to be a draft, of course there isnt, not even a little bit, so thats a fairly easy thing for you to say.
vision oOnly Greyyy
Out of all the nations where the people are oppressed and human rights non existent we chose Iraq?? with a pin in a map??
The war was waged because of alleged WMD and links to Al Quaeda, official end of story. Both things have been officially admitted as being wrong.
vision oOnly Greyyy
Semper Fi
the new york times, of all things, disagrees...
"Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
whole article here
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
Ok no problem we can cling on to the WMD spin if u so wish, however my main point was the massive swing towards the freedom aspect when the WMD's evaporated into thin air ( as they do, but usually making more noise and causing more damage), and tenuous links to Al Quaeda pretty much forgotten.
Which oppressed countries people are to be granted our "freedom" next? plenty to choose from.
I got an idea, how about America?! haha-)
vision oOnly Greyyy
if only we could help them all (snide comments about bush and methodology aside).....or if only nobody needed any help....
but, sadly, humans took away my innocent belief in utopia long ago. people suck
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
Ok, so we did go to iraq for the good of the people there? and America is not Utopia by a long, long, longer than that, way
vision oOnly Greyyy
Please provide just one example of this militaristic altruism. Just one.
On March 16, after the documents’ release was approved, Mr. Negroponte’s office issued a terse public announcement including a disclaimer that remained on the Web site: “The U.S. government has made no determination regarding the authenticity of the documents, validity or factual accuracy of the information contained therein, or the quality of any translations, when available.”