Affirmative Action vs Reverse Discrimination

Ahnimus

Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.

rebornFixer

Ahnimus wrote:

Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.

It is indeed alive and well ... What some people (often white people suffering from a guilty conscience) fail to realize is that discrimination is something that can happen to nearly anyone. It is one of those universals of human existence ... Like poverty, or mental illness ... It is a bad thing, to be sure, but it is always going to happen to some extent, to somebody. I have never understood the argument that white people are somehow immune. Yes, there is a certain priveledge that goes along with being white (at least in North American and European societies). This does NOT mean that affirmative action should be tolerated without any sort of concern ... Like any potentially good concept, it has its perks, but we need to minimize the problems that can also also occur. I don't appreciate being told that I "don't understand" because of my race. That's ... um ... racist. Its a mindless generalization. I also disliked that comment about "white people saying shocking things when left to their own devices". Well, I'm white, and allow me to shock with the following comment: People need to watch out with the foolish remarks on here. Anyone, of any creed, can say shocking and insensitive things. Heck, I will freely admit to doing so, because I am a fallible human being who sometimes says dumb shit. Someone who hates this particular post of mine could even make a smart-ass joke to that effect. My point is, ignorant prejudical attitudes are NOT unique to my race. Thank you, and good night.

Edit: Ahnimus, many of these comments are not directed at you. Just to clarify. I just used your last post as a starting point.

Ahnimus

reborncareerist wrote:

Edit: Ahnimus, many of these comments are not directed at you. Just to clarify. I just used your last post as a starting point.

I gathered as much. Good post reborn.

My beef is with groups that are bias. Groups that target other so-called groups and ignore other inequalities. Our socieities seem to have slipped into a reverse generalization. I suppose it's earned by white men, but it doesn't make it right either.

UKDave

Surely this is aimed at fixing the wrong problem...

The issue is giving equal opportunity to all to prove themselves worthy of the job and then choosing on merit regardless of colour, creed or sex. The effort should be spent making sure people have the opportunities not shoe-horning them into a job because of quota's, doesn't make sense, de-skills, de-values, de-motivates...

A Surprise Left

i really do not like affirmative action one little bit. i simply believe you hire the best person for the job, no matter their gender, sexual orientation or race. its something from the "progressive" side of politics that is anything but.

Hope&Anger

Ahnimus wrote:

Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.

But from what you've said, you haven't been a victim of reverse discrimination.

Affirmative action is either a law or an employment policy or admissions policy that REQUIRES an employer to consider race or sex when making decisions.

You said that your employer doesn't have such a policy. And from what I can tell about Canadian affirmative action law, it doesn't impose any quotas on hiring. All it basically does is require employers to make sure minority applicants know about the job and, if there's a history of discrimination, use race as a factor when all else is equal.

So laws and policies have not been responsible for your workplace. Your employer is responsible for your workplace.

What you seem to object to is that women and minorities have gotten the skills and qualifications to compete with white men in the labor market. But everyone seems to agree that the free market is good.

Just because you're in the minority doesn't mean that that happened because of affirmative action. And really, look at your political leaders, your business leaders, the presidents of your universities, and take solace in the fact that they're all white guys.

Hope&Anger

reborncareerist wrote:

It is indeed alive and well ... What some people (often white people suffering from a guilty conscience) fail to realize is that discrimination is something that can happen to nearly anyone. It is one of those universals of human existence ... Like poverty, or mental illness ... It is a bad thing, to be sure, but it is always going to happen to some extent, to somebody. I have never understood the argument that white people are somehow immune.

Immune from what? Immune from being racist? Or immune from being targets of racism?

Of course, whites are targets of racism. Is that really a surprise? Would anyone disagree with that? Did anyone make this argument in this thread? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Let me tell you -- no one on this thread has ever said that whites aren't targeted by racism.

reborncareerist wrote:

I don't appreciate being told that I "don't understand" because of my race. That's ... um ... racist. Its a mindless generalization.

I very much doubt anyone has ever said this to you. No one has ever said anything like this to me, and I've spent a lot of time talking to people from lots of different minority groups about their everyday experiences.

It is true that members of minorities in general and African-Americans in particular get tired of having to explain themselves to well-meaning white people all the time. But generally speaking, when they think they have an empathetic audience, they are pretty good about talking about how race has affected them in the classroom, in their workplaces, in the legal system, etc.

reborncareerist wrote:

I also disliked that comment about "white people saying shocking things when left to their own devices". Well, I'm white, and allow me to shock with the following comment: People need to watch out with the foolish remarks on here.

Who the hell are you? Ari Fleischer? People need to watch out what they say? Who talks like this???

Oh, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings . . . apparently by telling you something you already knew about fallible white people saying shocking and insensitive things to each other about minorities.

(Really, people on these boards are so fucking sensitive.)

reborncareerist wrote:

Anyone, of any creed, can say shocking and insensitive things. Heck, I will freely admit to doing so, because I am a fallible human being who sometimes says dumb shit. Someone who hates this particular post of mine could even make a smart-ass joke to that effect. My point is, ignorant prejudical attitudes are NOT unique to my race. Thank you, and good night.

Would it make you feel better if I said that everyone is racist? Great -- everyone is racist, and it's something that we all struggle with everyday. It's just some struggle with it more than others.

And what the hell any of this has to do with affirmative action is completely beyond me.

Hands bound

I see this crap everyday.

I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.

She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.

And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.

Affirmative action is a crock of shit.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Hope&Anger

Hands bound wrote:

I see this crap everyday.

I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.

She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.

And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.

Affirmative action is a crock of shit.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Yeah, and I went to grad school with a bunch of white guys who got into fancy-ass colleges not because they had good grades or good SAT scores but because their fathers and grandfathers gave a lot of money to the school. Then, they went to college -- and grad school -- and stayed drunk and stupid until they (barely) graduated and stepped into fancy-ass jobs that their fathers and grandfathers got for them.

That's not fair either, is it?

cornnifer

A Surprise Left wrote:

i really do not like affirmative action one little bit. i simply believe you hire the best person for the job, no matter their gender, sexual orientation or race. .

That is exactly what affirmative action aims to assure. In order for a protected group (Black, Hispanic, etc.) to be able to establish a discrimination case, it has to meet a pretty strict set of criteria. First of all they have to qualified for the job they were denied. If they are not qualified, there is no case. Period. Also, if the position they were denied is awarded to another a member of another protected group, there can be no case. In other words, in order for, lets say, a Black individual to be able to establish a discrimination case, the position they were denied has to be awarded to a White guy of equal or lesser qualification. The most common misconception about Affirmative action is that white guys lose jobs to Black guys who are lesser qualified. That simply isn't how it works. Personally i think White guys try to balm their damaged ego with a bunch of "reverse discrimination" crap because they can't handle the fact that a Black guy got the job they wanted.

Hope&Anger

Hands bound wrote:

I see this crap everyday.

I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.

She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.

And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.

Affirmative action is a crock of shit.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where instead of turning black women and white men against each other, all employees, regardless of race or gender or ethnicity or religion, could take time off from work to take care of their sick sons? Sure, our bosses might have to take a slightly smaller Christmas bonus or the shareholders would see slightly smaller dividends. But all of us who work for a living could be secure in our jobs and raise healthy families and stop hating each other.

Just a thought . . .

Ebizzie

Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.

Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.

In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.

rebornFixer

Hope&Anger wrote:

Immune from what? Immune from being racist? Or immune from being targets of racism?

Of course, whites are targets of racism. Is that really a surprise? Would anyone disagree with that? Did anyone make this argument in this thread? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Let me tell you -- no one on this thread has ever said that whites aren't targeted by racism.


I very much doubt anyone has ever said this to you. No one has ever said anything like this to me, and I've spent a lot of time talking to people from lots of different minority groups about their everyday experiences.

It is true that members of minorities in general and African-Americans in particular get tired of having to explain themselves to well-meaning white people all the time. But generally speaking, when they think they have an empathetic audience, they are pretty good about talking about how race has affected them in the classroom, in their workplaces, in the legal system, etc.


Who the hell are you? Ari Fleischer? People need to watch out what they say? Who talks like this???

Oh, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings . . . apparently by telling you something you already knew about fallible white people saying shocking and insensitive things to each other about minorities.

(Really, people on these boards are so fucking sensitive.)


Would it make you feel better if I said that everyone is racist? Great -- everyone is racist, and it's something that we all struggle with everyday. It's just some struggle with it more than others.

And what the hell any of this has to do with affirmative action is completely beyond me.

Oh, for fuck sakes. Show a little emotion about a topic on here, and suddenly you're Ari ... Put me on your ignore list if I make you that offended.

rebornFixer

Ebizzie wrote:

Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.

Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.

In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.

Good post, but be careful. Hope&Anger is probably going to freak out now.

Hope&Anger

reborncareerist wrote:

Oh, for fuck sakes. Show a little emotion about a topic on here, and suddenly you're Ari ... Put me on your ignore list if I make you that offended.

You amuse me. You get to show emotion, but then your feelings get hurt when others do.

Honestly, people on this board dish it out, but then put their tails between their legs when asked to take it.

Toughen up.

Hope&Anger

Ebizzie wrote:

Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.

Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.

In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.

I promise not to freak out. (But prepare reborncareerist, I may disagree with you and this poster. But I won't freak out.)

I believe this happens -- I've seen this with my own eyes. Hell, I've even participated in it. But I'll just say a couple of things.

First, if an employee -- regardless of race -- is actually hurting the bottom line, most employers will fire them. Yeah, there's paperwork involved, but if an employee sucks that badly, no employer is going to keep them around.

Second, employers may be giving preference to members of minority groups, but they often have reasons to do that other than the law or some legal requirement. It may have something to do with the pool of applicants, or developing a reputation in a particular community, or their client bases. All I'm saying is that corporations now claim to love diversity. They don't pursue those policies because they HAVE to; they do it because they WANT to. Now, people who hate affirmative action may not like that -- but they should take it up with their bosses.

Finally, these threads are always littered with stories about the black people who goof off or take too many sick days. How about some alternative stories.

I posted earlier about rich white guys who get into better colleges than they deserve because their daddies paid to get them in. (Anyone been to school with these assholes? I have. They're drunk and stupid and don't deserve the privileges their money buys them.)

How about when "the boys" at work take the afternoon off and go play golf and talk about work on the golf course, but forget to tell all the women on the team what they discussed?

How about having to sit in your (white male) boss's office while he interrupts your presentation to tell you that your skirt is turning him on so badly he can't think straight?

How about white guys getting promoted because they don't have to take care of the kids or cook dinner or pick up dry cleaning or stay home for the plumber?

We all have our tales of woe, but we don't make public policy based on these anecdotes.

rebornFixer

Hope&Anger wrote:

You amuse me. You get to show emotion, but then your feelings get hurt when others do.

Honestly, people on this board dish it out, but then put their tails between their legs when asked to take it.

Toughen up.

My tail is not between my legs. I just don't wish to violate the posting guidelines by having a huge tantrum and saying something that I will probably regret (even if said something may be true).
And who ever said my feelings were hurt? Some of your posts are just as reactionary as mine are ... Glad I could amuse you, though. Since you aren't willing to listen to other people's arguments, you may as well get something from this thread.

Ebizzie

Hope&Anger wrote:

I promise not to freak out. (But prepare reborncareerist, I may disagree with you and this poster. But I won't freak out.)

I believe this happens -- I've seen this with my own eyes. Hell, I've even participated in it. But I'll just say a couple of things.

First, if an employee -- regardless of race -- is actually hurting the bottom line, most employers will fire them. Yeah, there's paperwork involved, but if an employee sucks that badly, no employer is going to keep them around.

Second, employers may be giving preference to members of minority groups, but they often have reasons to do that other than the law or some legal requirement. It may have something to do with the pool of applicants, or developing a reputation in a particular community, or their client bases. All I'm saying is that corporations now claim to love diversity. They don't pursue those policies because they HAVE to; they do it because they WANT to. Now, people who hate affirmative action may not like that -- but they should take it up with their bosses.

Finally, these threads are always littered with stories about the black people who goof off or take too many sick days. How about some alternative stories.

I posted earlier about rich white guys who get into better colleges than they deserve because their daddies paid to get them in. (Anyone been to school with these assholes? I have. They're drunk and stupid and don't deserve the privileges their money buys them.)

How about when "the boys" at work take the afternoon off and go play golf and talk about work on the golf course, but forget to tell all the women on the team what they discussed?

How about having to sit in your (white male) boss's office while he interrupts your presentation to tell you that your skirt is turning him on so badly he can't think straight?

How about white guys getting promoted because they don't have to take care of the kids or cook dinner or pick up dry cleaning or stay home for the plumber?

We all have our tales of woe, but we don't make public policy based on these anecdotes.

Along with the talented white dudes who were dismissed were several white "bad apples". The problem is that if even 1 white guy who consistently outperforms a minority finds himself dismissed, race has just reared its ugly head. I believe in corporate America it has much less to do with image than it does the bottom line. Although a poor performing minority may hurt the company's bottom line a bit, throwing off man-hours etc., it won't hurt near as much as the financial harm caused by a discrimination lawsuit. Which, of course, isn't exactly a good thing for corporate image either.

As far as your examples women in the workplace go, I don't know what to tell you. My wife will most often stay home with the kids if they're sick being she makes less money in her profession. If she loses her job we'll be able to survive. If I lose my job we'd be in a world of hurt. She prides herself on being a good mother, full of maternal instincts. She doesn't think that "the man" is trying to hold her down when she is tasked with staying home to handle business on a work day.

Any comment about your skirt during a presentation should be taken as a compliment. Perhaps not appropriate timing, but a compliment nonetheless. If you look good, don't think for a second that that plays no role in your advancement in the company. I've seen it firsthand....but that's a whole other debate.

Hope&Anger

reborncareerist wrote:

My tail is not between my legs. I just don't wish to violate the posting guidelines by having a huge tantrum and saying something that I will probably regret (even if said something may be true).
And who ever said my feelings were hurt? Some of your posts are just as reactionary as mine are ... Glad I could amuse you, though. Since you aren't willing to listen to other people's arguments, you may as well get something from this thread.

You really ought to try reading my posts. I actually respond substantively to everyone's argument. In fact, I even conceded in my last post that Ebizzie made good points. I'm just offering a slightly different perspective. It's called a "discussion" or a "debate." That thing where people exchange views and try to come to some mutual understanding.

But I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings.

rebornFixer

Hope&Anger wrote:

You really ought to try reading my posts. I actually respond substantively to everyone's argument. In fact, I even conceded in my last post that Ebizzie made good points. I'm just offering a slightly different perspective. It's called a "discussion" or a "debate." That thing where people exchange views and try to come to some mutual understanding.

But I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings.

Well, you might have tried offering me the same courtesy in the first place, and then just maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and derailing the thread.

"Thanks", though. I wasn't too sure about this "debate" thing.